Nicotine salts for buzz without the throat hit?

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Giant Squid

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As a non-smoker, I strongly dislike throat hit. I want reasonably fast acting nicotine with minimal irritation.

Best I've found so far is vaping small hits of strong liquid (36mg/ml in 100% unflavored PG) to the mouth and holding for a few seconds. This causes a mild tingling sensation. If I direct lung inhale the same liquid it will cause pain and coughing. Nose hit is somewhere between throat hit and mouth hit. It takes several mouth vapes to reach an effective dose.

Absorbing through the mouth is slow, at least 30 seconds for full effects. This doesn't bother me because it's still fast enough to avoid overdose and slow absorption lowers risk of addiction. Nicotine absorbs faster at high pH, and as sold it's in the base form with high pH. I wonder if adding a weak acid to convert it to salt form will reduce throat hit and still be vapable and effective.

Some unanswered questions:
Does vaping actually boil the nicotine or just boil the PG and carry the nicotine with it by physical adhesion? Nicotine has a higher boiling point than PG so I suspect it may be the latter. In that case salts may be vapable even if they have high boiling points.
Is lung absorption really faster than mouth absorption? I've read some speculation that the limiting factor is the PG/VG holding onto the nicotine and lung absorption is just as slow. In that case, assuming salts are vapable, is there a noticeable difference in absorption speed for salts compared to the base?
What salts are vapable, heat stable, and easy to make? Any experiences with salting nicotine (eg. adding a drop of distilled vinegar to form the acetate)? Stability is a concern, eg. ketene is a possible decomposition product of acetates. I've heard some vendors add citric acid, and apparently that e-liquid is still effective.

Even if salts are less effectively absorbed, they may allow better nicotine effects to irritation ratio. If that's true then they would be useful by allowing bigger hits.
 
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suspectK

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Malic and citric acid also play a roll in potentiating nicotine, but I'm not sure what that study used for nicotine. It's really hard to find factual data on the subject of e-cig studies. Being on the intranet, even more practical studies on a wide variety of things are difficult to get to from all the clutter of BS available.

I'm sure there is a thermal breakdown of nicotine with e-cig use. The amount of thermal breakdown with cigarettes produced I believe 70% of unaltered nicotine. Lung absorption is 15-30 seconds. Its high variation is due to capillaries that are available in your lungs. Mouth receptors are closer to being universal. It's a lot easier for the body to repair damaged areas in the mouth than it is in the lungs.

As far as salts go, I would assume...ASSUME...HCL would be easier to use, but you could see about making a freebase form. I know ammonia is used to freebase nicotine in cigarettes. Salts have a higher melting point, so assuming again, freebase would be easier to vape with.


Edit...^yeah, why don't you use 100% VG if you don't want to feel it in your throat? Granted, the nicotine level will promote some throat hit.
 

Giant Squid

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I'm curious , if you dislike throat hit why are you vaping 100% PG ?
I may be mistaken , but I though VG was a much smoother vape than PG .

PG is very well studied. I'm confident that it's safe for inhalation. VG is safe to eat but effects of inhalation are much less certain. Most of the throat hit is from the nicotine anyway -- I've vaped pure 0mg/ml PG and there's much less throat hit than with 36mg/ml.

Uh.....what?!

It's true for all drugs. The faster it takes effect the more reinforcing it is. It's the reason injected drugs are more addictive than the same drug taken orally.
 

mattiem

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As a non-smoker, I strongly dislike throat hit. I want reasonably fast acting nicotine with minimal irritation.

And this my friends is how it begins. The powers that be will see that the one thing that has helped so many smokers put down the cancer stick is now being used by some as a means to getting their buzz on. Just like the over the counter sinus/cold meds that actually worked as they were supposed to are now prescription only because someone discovered that they could be used for something else. :facepalm:
 

suspectK

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They said ..'the more reinforcing it is.' It is very true. A compound introduced quickly will be more prone to causing addiction faster than that same compound introduced slowly. When the compound is introduced quickly to receptors, there is a greater response. You don't need a case study to know that a quicker+greater chemical response will lead to a greater addiction potential.
 

Penn

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Giant Squid

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And this my friends is how it begins. The powers that be will see that the one thing that has helped so many smokers put down the cancer stick is now being used by some as a means to getting their buzz on. Just like the over the counter sinus/cold meds that actually worked as they were supposed to are now prescription only because someone discovered that they could be used for something else. :facepalm:

Nicotine is legal, and the buzz is very similar to caffeine. I could just as legally have started using cigarettes. Complaining about non-smokers vaping has potential to encourage smoking.

Most people take a mouth hit and THEN inhale that. Direct lung hits at 36mg nic will not be pleasant.

Even an indirect lung hit is unpleasant at 36mg. It's barely tolerable at 12mg, but 12mg requires an excessive amount of inhalation to get an effective dose.

Mouth hits are an acceptable solution, but if I can reduce irritation even further that would be better.
 

retired1

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No problem. Subject will be dropped from this end but I would like to point out, we were discussing properties of addiction which is relevant to having an HONEST discussion on nicotine.

Which is possible to do without going down the road this thread was heading in. As long is it remains with nicotine.
 

Penn

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Which is possible to do without going down the road this thread was heading in. As long is it remains with nicotine.

I see your point.

ETA - I do feel I need to drop out of the conversation. I don't see the point as valid but the only way to approach that would involve studies on other substances since I doubt those studies have been done on nicotine.
 

PhoenixD

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Go to Bluelight for capability to discuss openly with nicotine and other psychoactives.

I use 24mg nicotine with 65/35 liquid. I rarely take pulls without taking a direct inhale to the lungs. I just like it, and I do think it tastes better, especially on the exhale.

Can you tell me what 65/35 liquid is? I have been reading this site voraciously for days (ok, I am only on Day 5 of Vaping) and I am not sure about the "liquid mix" that might delight me more. Is that the Glycerin (?) or whatever. Thanks for your time.
 

suspectK

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Sorry, every time I do the ratio of liquid I start to type it out all the way for newbies, but I end up cutting that corner.

If I type out a ratio, and I've noticed with several others as well on here, I put the vegetable glycerin/VG percentage content first. Then, I put the propylene glycol percentage content next. So I use a 65%VG/35%PG liquid. I'm really good about not using so many of the acronyms or slang on here, but I typically don't include VG/PG when I go into liquid ratio.

Oh yeah: You can also use distilled water or polyethylene glycol.
 
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rolygate

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Tech note: the convention is to put the PG percentage first. Some might reverse that as they use more VG, but this tends to create a lot of confusion. Putting the larger percentage first, just because it may be glycerine, is confusing because we have used the format PG/VG for years now. A 5% PG, 95% VG mix is written 5/95 or 5%/95% or PG/VG 5-95. Or anyway you like - but then don't expect everyone to answer questions on it correctly as you'll confuse them.

On the topic of nicotine effects, everyone is different and there is certainly no 'one size fits all'. We have demonstrated a factor 10 difference between individuals here (some can't over-vape 6mg liquid, some need 60mg or they relapse; and what's more they show no sign of over-consumption).

Some people can direct lung inhale 45mg without noticing it. People are different. Most do a mouth-lung inhale, though, whatever the strength or type of liquid. It works best for ecigs because the nic is absorbed at three sites: mouth-lung-nose (buccal - pulmonary - nasal if you prefer). It's also why a nose exhale is used if you want max nic.

If you are a non-smoker and for some reason think that using an ecig is better for dietary nicotine supplementation than taking pills (which is debatable; we mainly do it because we smoked for years and need a substitute for that) - then you should probably start with 6mg, not 36mg. If you aren't a smoker then you probably have no desperate need for large quantities of nicotine, unlike others who maybe smoked several PAD's for years. You might consider first taking vitamin B3 (nicotinic acid) and nicotine pills, if you have some sort of cognitive function / memory / work capacity / stress issue to resolve, it may be better than inhaled materials.

Non-smokers starting up with an ecig is a very sensitive subject right now. Politically, it is a tricky subject as it add adds fuel to the regulatory fire. Of course, any sensible person would ignore it since if everyone in the country picked up an ecig tomorrow then you probably wouldn't be able to see any effect on health statistics in 20 years (except that if they were smokers, and quit at the same time, smoking-related mortality would just about disappear by then). Obviously it is far better if potential smokers start with an ecig since it is hard to see how any quantifiable health impact would result.

Nevertheless, this is a politically difficult topic for us just now so this thread is closing. Please don't start another with the same introductory sentence as we will have to assume you are trying to make things difficult for us, and our cordial relationship will come to an end.
 
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