NiMH batteries for vaping

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Rickajho

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It's always wise to understand the limitations, abilities, and potential risks of any new technology you'll be using. The lack of doing so can be...unpleasant. Or worse.

I've only ever seen that one 4.8 V model and, frankly, I'm unimpressed by that particular battery. At 600 mAh it's of very limited capacity and Baditude already gave it a poor review for longevity.

I don't really know why anyone would be interested. This is very old, 1st generation box mod technology, when someone dissatisfied with a 3.7 volt vape could get all wowsers vaping a 3.0 ohm carto at 4.8 volts. Whee.

You do know if you want to use these batteries you have to get a specialty charger for them?
 

Ryedan

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I don't really know why anyone would be interested. This is very old, 1st generation box mod technology, when someone dissatisfied with a 3.7 volt vape could get all wowsers vaping a 3.0 ohm carto at 4.8 volts. Whee.

You do know if you want to use these batteries you have to get a specialty charger for them?

I'm interested because I skipped over NiMHs after Nicads and went straight to Li-ion. I'm learning a lot about NiMHs and enjoying that. All good stuff :)
 
I don't really know why anyone would be interested. This is very old, 1st generation box mod technology, when someone dissatisfied with a 3.7 volt vape could get all wowsers vaping a 3.0 ohm carto at 4.8 volts. Whee.

You do know if you want to use these batteries you have to get a specialty charger for them?

Yes, which would be why I'd four-square AAs and run it into a VV board. That having been said, there's much to be said for old technologies. They tend to be reliable, proven, and have all the little quirks ironed out.

For this reason, I'm not above using Stone Age technologies when they're sufficient to get the job done. Really, a stick is a mighty powerful tool.
 
I'm interested because I skipped over NiMHs after Nicads and went straight to Li-ion. I'm learning a lot about NiMHs and enjoying that. All good stuff :)

Really, just carbon copy your NiCd knowledge and remove the information about toxicity. NiMH aren't toxic when thrown away and are cleared for discarding in the trash.
 

Burnie

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Just wondering, with all the talk, is anyone USING them at this moment? instead of Li-ion? It is something I used years ago, and built my own mods, but I am looking at the 4.8v (18650's) and wanting to know who is using them and how they perform. Might still try them myself anyway, just for old time sake.

Vape On
Burnie
:vapor:
 
Just wondering, with all the talk, is anyone USING them at this moment? instead of Li-ion? It is something I used years ago, and built my own mods, but I am looking at the 4.8v (18650's) and wanting to know who is using them and how they perform. Might still try them myself anyway, just for old time sake.

Vape On
Burnie
:vapor:

I have a gorgeous stack of 4 Li-Mn sealed Volt X2's that I'm currently using, so no...but some people do.
 

Ryedan

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Just wondering, with all the talk, is anyone USING them at this moment? instead of Li-ion? It is something I used years ago, and built my own mods, but I am looking at the 4.8v (18650's) and wanting to know who is using them and how they perform. Might still try them myself anyway, just for old time sake.

The guy who does the Puck does. I don't know of anyone on ECF.

If you are thinking of trying them, I would stay away from the 4.8V 18650 sized pack. Baditude tried that and they only lasted a few weeks I think before they gave up the ghost. He was running them at 8 watts, 2A draw, so it wasn't like they were being pushed hard in vaping terms, but at 600 mAh, that's 3.33C and that was I suspect what killed them.

IMO you would be better off with the higher discharge rate and higher mAh cells from Nikkel's post #17.
 
Or bite the bullet, four-square AA NiMH batteries, and have 2,500 mAh of vaping pleasure. :) Since somebody here used that to run a VV USB passthrough, it's a proven technology (and that's perfectly safe; 4.8 V, while out of spec, will still run most USB technologies).

Even a 10W draw is under 1 C on those.
 

Nikkel

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Or bite the bullet, four-square AA NiMH batteries, and have 2,500 mAh of vaping pleasure. :) Since somebody here used that to run a VV USB passthrough, it's a proven technology (and that's perfectly safe; 4.8 V, while out of spec, will still run most USB technologies).
Even a 10W draw is under 1 C on those.

The original Nomod (I coined that term) used a non-VV USB passthrough. They add practically no weight and size to a battery box.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-portable-usb-battery-packs-3.html#post137972
Madvapes used to have them cheap on sale. Now, the cheapest I've found is here, where I got mine:
510 high voltageManual USB Passthrough

The brass and aluminum version of the Private V2 telescoping mod at Fasttech is long enough to accomodate three of the 2/3A size NiMH. I doubt the measly, silly millimeter difference in diameter would matter. I wonder if, with top and bottom unscrewed a few threads, it could accomodate four?
http://www.fasttech.com/product/1423000-private-v2-telescopic-mechanical-mod

I think a case could be made for arguing the 15-minute chargers are somewhat safer than those taking hours. It would be convenient to monitor the charging for 15 minutes, whereas if it took hours, they would likely be left unattended. Puck reports good results. In any case, it would [be] handy to have the fast charging option if you were in a hurry, and also have the option to slow charge which would extend battery life.

The non-Low-Self-Discharge type batteries might be more suitable for vaping because they generally have 15 -20% more mAh capacity and are cheaper. The low-self-discharge would seem to be of lesser importance.

I noticed that MorpheusPA, who seems to have a pretty good working-knowledge of batteries, claimed over in the Exploding Battery thread that NiMH is "unarguably safer" than Li-ion.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ttery-justn-now-exploded-33.html#post12287278

That hasn't deterred peeps who sell Li-ion and users who already have a lot invested in them from arguing to the contrary.

The question is this:
Does the slightly smaller size and weight of Li-ion justify the increased risk?
In my opinion, it does not.
In a crowded subway, I would prefer to be in the company of NiMH vapers. I would prefer that my grandma and grandpa, who have no knowledge of Ohm and his law, vape NiMH.
 
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The brass and aluminum version of the Private V2 telescoping mod at Fasttech is long enough to accomodate three of the 2/3A size NiMH. I doubt the measly, silly millimeter difference in diameter would matter. I wonder if, with top and bottom unscrewed a few threads, it could accomodate four?
$12.71 Private V2 Telescopic Mechanical Mod - brass + aluminum at FastTech - Worldwide Free Shipping

If it has a spring, that should be able to compress an extra millimeter since they're never supposed to be at full compression anyway (which would defeat the purpose of a hot spring, if it has one, or potentially crush the battery if it doesn't).

I think a case could be made for arguing the 15-minute chargers are somewhat safer than those taking hours. It would be convenient to monitor the charging for 15 minutes, whereas if it took hours, they would likely be left unattended. Puck reports good results. In any case, it would [be] handy to have the fast charging option if you were in a hurry, and also have the option to slow charge which would extend battery life.

Given that the case of a blowout is much more probable when charging that fast (fifteen minutes would be 4C on average), I'm going to have to disagree. NiMH are exceedingly unlikely to blow out when slow charged.

The non-Low-Self-Discharge type batteries might be more suitable for vaping because they generally have 15 -20% more mAh capacity and are cheaper. The low-self-discharge would seem to be of lesser importance.

Agreed. It does depend on if you store them; the primary self-discharge is in the first 24-48 hours. This can amount to 10 to 20% of battery capacity, but even losing 500 ma off of 2,500 isn't that extreme.

I noticed that MorpheusPA, who seems to have a pretty good working-knowledge of batteries, claimed over in the Exploding Battery thread that NiMH is "unarguably safer" than Li-ion.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ttery-justn-now-exploded-33.html#post12287278

Who, me? :) Unarguably safer...within operating specifications. This is pushing it, although I'm reasonably comfortable with your Nomod.

The idea of...for instance, not that I want to give anybody any ideas...using a boost controller or flyback oscillator to ramp the output voltage from a single cell...no.

Any energy storage technology can be pushed past its limits and they tend to get ugly when you do that.

Ask me how I know. Actually, don't, as it's just embarrassing.

I'm still waiting for somebody to suggest using a high-Farad supercap to power a mod. Now there's an idea that just terrifies me.

That hasn't deterred peeps who sell Li-ion and users who already have a lot invested in them from arguing to the contrary.

They're partially right. Most of us these days use LiMn technology, though, which is certainly far safer than Li-ion. Even so, millions of Li-ions get used every day without incident.

The question is this:
Does the slightly smaller size and weight of Li-ion justify the increased risk?
In my opinion, it does not.

Leading question. ;-) The one-third size and a bit less than one-third weight of lithium technology as compared to NiMH (where the batteries do tend to be heavier for identical sizes) is a definite consideration. No gentleman likes saggy pants pockets.

We haven't discussed the cost of NiMH batteries, which includes environmental cost. Balanced against lithium, lithium wins by a nose.

Of the two, I'd rather see lithium batteries heading for garbage dumps. Although non-toxic, NiMH costs more environmentally to create so not recycling them is more of a negative.

Given where the supplies of lithium are, and misch metal (NiMH's parent ore), again, I'd rather have the lithium.

In a crowded subway, I would prefer to be in the company of NiMH vapers. I would prefer that my grandma and grandpa, who have no knowledge of Ohm and his law, vape NiMH.

Again, arguable. We haven't stressed millions of NiMH batteries at high draw by giving them to vapers, and without some testing (which I will not do as I dislike homeowner's insurance claims), I'm not at all sure how well they'll fare.

Batteries constructed for vaping specifically--including 10C+ discharge rates--would be equally dangerous insofar as energy discharge. The electricity doesn't care if it's being discharged from NiMH or lithium.

I've accidentally shorted a 9 V NiMH. My recommendation? Don't do that. I melted the metal.

NiMH does stack much better than lithium does...which is a good thing as otherwise you couldn't get the voltage high enough to vape (or run your camera, but that's another story). But frankly, I consider anybody who stacks lithium to be asking for trouble unless they're taking some rather extensive precautions.

What NiMH doesn't take to well (no battery does, really) is reverse discharge, which will happen when one cell is much lower in voltage than another. Charged separately, that won't be as much of an issue. In a pack, it can be. And it'll kill a battery (even an NiMH runs a good risk of dying spectacularly). So you'd still need a minimum voltage cutoff and care taken in a mod if stacking. Fortunately you should notice the decreased vape before the cell drives under 0 V (yes, they can do that).
 

Nikkel

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"Given that the case of a blowout is much more probable when charging that fast (fifteen minutes would be 4C on average), I'm going to have to disagree. NiMH are exceedingly unlikely to blow out when slow charged."
Apparently, they are exceedingly unlikely to blow out when fast charged too. Duracell, Energizer, Rayovac, and other mainstream manufacturers make the 15-minute chargers. [You can buy them at Walmart.] I suspect if there had been any (or more than a few) vents or blowouts, they would have discontinued sales for fear of lawsuits.
[
Some curves showing the Sanyo 2500 mAh AA battery charged on Energizer 15 minute charger for 150 cycles. No vents, no blowouts.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5349715&postcount=1
]
"The one-third size and a bit less than one-third weight of lithium technology as compared to NiMH (where the batteries do tend to be heavier for identical sizes) is a definite consideration."
I think the energy-density of NiMH to Li-ion is much closer than 1:3.
 
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Nikkel

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"The typical specific energy for small NiMH cells is about 100 W·h/kg, and for larger NiMH cells about 75 W·h/kg (270 kJ/kg). This is significantly better than the typical 40–60 W·h/kg for NiCd, and similar to the 100–160 W·h/kg for lithium-ion batteries. NiMH has a volumetric energy density of about 300 W·h/L (1,080 MJ/m3), significantly better than NiCd at 50–150 W·h/L, and about the same as lithium-ion at 250–360 W·h/L."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–metal_hydride_battery
 

Nikkel

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"We haven't stressed millions of NiMH batteries at high draw by giving them to vapers, and without some testing (which I will not do as I dislike homeowner's insurance claims), I'm not at all sure how well they'll fare."
Puck, his disciples, and kin have been vaping NiMH for years and appear to be happy campers. Not a scientific test, but good anecdotal evidence. They seem to have few "issues".
Anecdotal evidence by some Li-ion vapers suggest some have not fared well and have experienced issues such as BOOM!
 
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Nikkel

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"Most of us these days use LiMn technology, though, which is certainly far safer than Li-ion. Even so, millions of Li-ions get used every day without incident."

Strictly speaking, LiMn, a.k.a. IMR, is Li-ion. The "I" stands for Ion.
Millions use without incident. Some use with incident. How many incidents do you think would be acceptable?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–metal_hydride_battery#Safety
"The "Eneloop plus" incorporates a PTC thermistor that disconnects the power if the battery overheats, in order to make it safe for use in toys for small children."
 
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"Most of us these days use LiMn technology, though, which is certainly far safer than Li-ion. Even so, millions of Li-ions get used every day without incident."

Strictly speaking, LiMn, a.k.a. IMR, is Li-ion. The "I" stands for Ion.

If you want to get hyper-technical about it, all batteries are ion batteries. That's how they generate power, by recombination.

If you're arguing that unprotected ICR and IMR have the same safety ratings, then no.

Millions use without incident. Some use with incident. How many incidents do you think would be acceptable?

I'm not an actuary. And we don't have data handy on high-draw NiMH usage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–metal_hydride_battery#Safety
"The "Eneloop plus" incorporates a PTC thermistor that disconnects the power if the battery overheats, in order to make it safe for use in toys for small children."

So...it requires a circuit to cut power in case of near-venting? That's not exactly the hallmark of a perfectly safe battery, and a good analog to the current-limiting circuitry in a Li-Ion.
 
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"We haven't stressed millions of NiMH batteries at high draw by giving them to vapers, and without some testing (which I will not do as I dislike homeowner's insurance claims), I'm not at all sure how well they'll fare."
Puck, his disciples, and kin have been vaping NiMH for years and appear to be happy campers. Not a scientific test, but good anecdotal evidence. They seem to have few "issues".
Anecdotal evidence by some Li-ion vapers suggest some have not fared well and have experienced issues such as BOOM!

Anecdotal evidence isn't worth the scientific journal it's printed in. Otherwise, we have to class the lithium as perfectly safe; of everybody I know, nobody has ever had a problem with the hundreds of lithium batteries they've used.

". . . Batteries constructed for vaping specifically . . ."
Is there any such thing? I thought Li-ion batteries were designed for industrial applications, far from the human face.

Li-ion are used in things such as cell phones, which are near one's face, and designed for near-human usage. The battery in your watch is lithium, in all probability. Mine is, but LiFe.

"The typical specific energy for small NiMH cells is about 100 W·h/kg, and for larger NiMH cells about 75 W·h/kg (270 kJ/kg). This is significantly better than the typical 40–60 W·h/kg for NiCd, and similar to the 100–160 W·h/kg for lithium-ion batteries. NiMH has a volumetric energy density of about 300 W·h/L (1,080 MJ/m3), significantly better than NiCd at 50–150 W·h/L, and about the same as lithium-ion at 250–360 W·h/L."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel...ydride_battery

I noticed that myself. Interestingly, we already discussed this under the 2/3 AA size NiMH. In practice, it doesn't seem to work very well.
 
"Given that the case of a blowout is much more probable when charging that fast (fifteen minutes would be 4C on average), I'm going to have to disagree. NiMH are exceedingly unlikely to blow out when slow charged."
Apparently, they are exceedingly unlikely to blow out when fast charged too. Duracell, Energizer, Rayovac, and other mainstream manufacturers make the 15-minute chargers. [You can buy them at Walmart.] I suspect if there had been any (or more than a few) vents or blowouts, they would have discontinued sales for fear of lawsuits.

One would hope they use a temperature sensor to cut things off when battery temperatures rise too high.

Which is rather my point. It requires extra safety circuitry...that can fail.

You'll also note he stopped the cycle at 150, when the results showed the battery was essentially toast. Dangers are greatest not on a new battery, but a damaged or old one.

[
Some curves showing the Sanyo 2500 mAh AA battery charged on Energizer 15 minute charger for 150 cycles. No vents, no blowouts.
RC Groups - View Single Post - Charles (and others) were right… NiMh AA Cycle Testing
]

As a battery enthusiast? That is dreadful. The battery is not happy at cycle 100, showing considerable damage at cycle 125 and essentially destroyed at cycle 150.

I have some NiMH that have been in continuous use for years. While not immortal--no battery is--they still test perfectly well on their voltage curves and rested voltages in the 1.35 V range are common. Once they start acting odd, or rested voltage drops, they go into the recycling or "low-draw solar use only" pile.
 

Nikkel

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"Li-ion are used in things such as cell phones, which are near one's face, and designed for near-human usage. The battery in your watch is lithium, in all probability. Mine is, but LiFe."

Let's don't lump cell phone batteries with ecig batteries. I was referring to batteries such as the 14500 and [18650] that are commonly used now for vaping. I'm pretty sure those were designed for industrial use and not for vaping. You made the claim that there are batteries specifically designed for vaping.
Which batteries are specifically designed for vaping?

Regarding the figures from Wikipedia showing the energy-density considerably closer than 1-to-3, are you disputing those numbers?

"One would hope they use a temperature sensor to cut things off when battery temperatures rise too high.
Which is rather my point. It requires extra safety circuitry...that can fail.
You'll also note he stopped the cycle at 150, when the results showed the battery was essentially toast. Dangers are greatest not on a new battery, but a damaged or old one."

Some tests are destructive. The curves suggest to me that ocassional fast charging would be viable, not particularly dangerous, and would not shorten the battery's useful life by a considerable amount. Charging exclusively in fast mode obviously shortens the life and reduces the capacity. The 15-minute chargers have, I think, circuitry which will refuse to charge an old, damaged battery. The option to fast charge is one of several advantages of NiMH over Li-ion.

The new Eneloops are said to have a life of 2,000 cycles. Six years or so, if charged daily.

The term "Li-ion" has a somewhat negative connotation in the public's mind. I can understand why some peeps might want to claim IMR batteries are not Li-ion. Good public relations strategy.

"Anecdotal evidence isn't worth the scientific journal it's printed in."

It is not printed in scientific journals. Protocol forbids it.
 
"Li-ion are used in things such as cell phones, which are near one's face, and designed for near-human usage. The battery in your watch is lithium, in all probability. Mine is, but LiFe."

Let's don't lump cell phone batteries with ecig batteries. I was referring to batteries such as the 14500 and [18650] that are commonly used now for vaping. I'm pretty sure those were designed for industrial use and not for vaping. You made the claim that there are batteries specifically designed for vaping.
Which batteries are specifically designed for vaping?

Nice way to warp context. All batteries are designed industrially. The ones we use for vaping are designed--industrially--for high drain, which happens to match our designs. Ergo, designed for vaping (but not exclusively as they're also great for flashlights).

At this point, there are several types of...oh, forget it.

Regarding the figures from Wikipedia showing the energy-density considerably closer than 1-to-3, are you disputing those numbers?

Yes. Given that it's Wikipedia, disputing it is hardly fresh news.

Some tests are destructive. The curves suggest to me that ocassional fast charging would be viable, not particularly dangerous, and would not shorten the battery's useful life by a considerable amount. Charging exclusively in fast mode obviously shortens the life and reduces the capacity. The 15-minute chargers have, I think, circuitry which will refuse to charge an old, damaged battery. The option to fast charge is one of several advantages of NiMH over Li-ion.

For safety's sake, don't keep thinking that.

The new Eneloops are said to have a life of 2,000 cycles. Six years or so, if charged daily.

Not in a fast charger.

The term "Li-ion" has a somewhat negative connotation in the public's mind. I can understand why some peeps might want to claim IMR batteries are not Li-ion. Good public relations strategy.

Your superior knowledge abounds.

"Anecdotal evidence isn't worth the scientific journal it's printed in."
It is not printed in scientific journals. Protocol forbids it.

That was rather my point.

Look, I'm glad you think NiMH is the end-all and be-all of vaping and is so much safer. It's too bad you're only partially correct, but have fun with them. Try not to blow out your teeth, but if you do at least you can't complain to me. I told you so.
 
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