Non-smoker thinking of vaping

[rolygate]

If one gains so many benefits from a substance, wouldn't it stand to reason they would continue to want the benefits from the substance; even become dependent on it?

I want to repeat my last, excellent vacation. I'm not experiencing any withdrawal though, and it doesn't occupy my thoughts until you remind me.

 

[mosspa]

I just received a PM from rolygate. I was way off in my nicotine concentration calculations (the logic was correct but I made an enormous error).

Hi Mosspa,

I'm afraid your nicotine strength calculation is wrong.

20mg e-liquid is 20mg/ml. This is because 1ml doesn't weigh 1mg, it weighs *about* 1gm.

In 100ml of refill liquid of 20ng strength (2%), there will be 20 x 100 mg = 2,000 mg or 2 gm. You can also work that out from the weight of 100ml and the percentage.

Hope this helps

Word to self, don't do mental math unless properly vaped Yes, one ml of water weighs a gram not a milligram. So, the 48mg marked on my nicotine stock does, indeed, mean 48mg/ml. Duh! I guess I was so busy trying to relate the specific gravity of vape juice to water, I managed to ignore a fundamental weight and measure value. I like doing the calculation from the bottom, though, rolly. Had I realized that I should have used grams the way I would have expressed it was that one ml of vape juice weighs about a gram, so in any one mg of 20mg/ml vape juice there would be 20mg. So, in a 100ml solution of 20mg vape juice there would, indeed, be 2 grams of nicotine. However, in 50ml of vape juice there would be 1 gram of nicotine. I have no idea how I could have made such a fundamental error, but I apologize. So, if your vape juice is labeled 20mg/ml, your supplier is probably telling you the truth. Science is correct, sometimes I'm an idiot.

Thank you roly for correcting this. Mystery solved.

 

[rolygate]

If nicotine is the wonder drug which has so many benefits, why wouldn't one become addicted?

You could say the same thing about owning a Rolls-Royce, but it's probably not dependence-forming.

Evidence!

 

[The Dog Guy]

I just received a PM from rolygate. I was way off in my nicotine concentration calculations (the logic was correct but I made an enormous error).



Word to self, don't do mental math unless properly vaped Yes, one ml of water weighs a gram not a milligram. So, the 48mg marked on my nicotine stock does, indeed, mean 48mg/ml. Duh! I guess I was so busy trying to relate the specific gravity of vape juice to water, I managed to ignore a fundamental weight and measure value. I like doing the calculation from the bottom, though, rolly. Had I realized that I should have used grams the way I would have expressed it was that one ml of vape juice weighs about a gram, so in any one mg of 20mg/ml vape juice there would be 20mg. So, in a 100ml solution of 20mg vape juice there would, indeed, be 2 grams of nicotine. However, in 50ml of vape juice there would be 1 gram of nicotine. I have no idea how I could have made such a fundamental error, but I apologize. So, if your vape juice is labeled 20mg/ml, your supplier is probably telling you the truth. Science is correct, sometimes I'm an idiot.

Thank you roly for correcting this. Mystery solved.

Oh man...there goes your credibility. Now everything you've ever said must be wrong
Rofl

 

[mosspa]

Yet they don't become dependent on it...

Then, you really believe that a person with Parkinson's disease is not dependent on his/her l-DOPA for motor control? Same exact thing!

 

[Nick N]

I say why not? I quit smoking 12 years ago and picked up vaping in June when my brother in law quit smoking. Currently using 6-9mg DIY non-flavored and I enjoy vaping quite a bit. I usually vape when I am away from work; that means going 8-9 hours straight without it. Wife tried vaping but still smokes cigarettes that I make on a daily basis (RYO). Some people are just not ready to quit. I like building coils and my various mods. I have zero desire to ever smoke a cigarette and I feel I could go to 0mg if I wanted to.

There is however a good chance of developing a case of "shiny-itis", the obsessive habit of acquiring more vaping gear.

 

[mosspa]

Lmao, OP, you definitely do NOT want to vape 12 MG if you've never smoked cigarettes. If you're using a decent setup (ego battery with a tank is like bare minimum), you're getting a LOT of vapor compared to what people used to vape in "cig-a-like" e-cigs. I used to vape disposable cigarette style e-cigs which contained up to 18 MG. I would get a nicotine buzz after a few drags. I tried a 6 MG juice in my first ego and the first puff gave me a buzz.

They make 3 MG ejuice too. My suggestion is to vape 6 MG. It'll do the trick, you might actually find that it's too much if your goal is to chain vape to do smoke tricks, flavors, just the relaxing feeling of smoking.

Well, my initial vaping experience with vaping was with 45mg (Vuse e-cigs), and before that I hadn't smoked in 42 years. I now vape 48mg, because that is what the stock solution I use is. As roly pointed out, nicotine tolerance is, to a large part, determined by genetic predispositions. Apparently, I might not be as sensitive as some.

 

[Ablonz]

I just received a PM from rolygate. I was way off in my nicotine concentration calculations (the logic was correct but I made an enormous error).



Word to self, don't do mental math unless properly vaped Yes, one ml of water weighs a gram not a milligram. So, the 48mg marked on my nicotine stock does, indeed, mean 48mg/ml. Duh! I guess I was so busy trying to relate the specific gravity of vape juice to water, I managed to ignore a fundamental weight and measure value. I like doing the calculation from the bottom, though, rolly. Had I realized that I should have used grams the way I would have expressed it was that one ml of vape juice weighs about a gram, so in any one mg of 20mg/ml vape juice there would be 20mg. So, in a 100ml solution of 20mg vape juice there would, indeed, be 2 grams of nicotine. However, in 50ml of vape juice there would be 1 gram of nicotine. I have no idea how I could have made such a fundamental error, but I apologize. So, if your vape juice is labeled 20mg/ml, your supplier is probably telling you the truth. Science is correct, sometimes I'm an idiot.

Thank you roly for correcting this. Mystery solved.

Yes Thank you for the correction!!!! Now if everyone that started reading this, I continued because I had my , would read at least up to this point to see that they can not go and vape on 10% as it would be very dangerous. I was just going to keep going with what I was taught about these juices as it was working for me and I was happily satisfied even though your statement meant that I was only vaping .144 mg/ml I would go back and change the earlier post you made if you have not done so already as to try not to misinform anyone about that. I really have enjoyed this debate so far.

 

[mosspa]

Oh man...there goes your credibility. Now everything you've ever said must be wrong
Rofl

Obviously. Make on F'in mistake and your a dolt for life

 

[rolygate]

Really? There is no such thing as psychological dependency?

Now that is a valid argument. OK you hooked me

Smoking creates a complex dependency profile that has multiple components of two types: chemical and psychological dependencies. There are multiple factors in each. Any given individual may exhibit:

1. No dependence at all.
(We could use the term addiction here, justifiably, because we can be reasonably certain that smoking can create dependence and it can be harmful.)

2. Chemical dependence only.
Withdrawal symptoms will include cravings, which may be intense, and long-lived.
Many compounds from the possible 9,600 in the mix have been implicated.
At present, we think that the subsequent nicotine dependence exhibited by many/most smokers is caused by the co-administration with MAOIs, which potentiate ('boost') the effect of nicotine.
There is also evidence that several other compounds may be implicated, such as the WTAs (specifically, anatabine) and even the pyrolytic aldehydes.
After smoking, people may exhibit no / some / powerful chemical dependence symptoms.

3. Psychological dependence only.
The routines and habituation are significant for some people, and nonexistent in others.
Psychologists tend to emphasise the habituation issues, but then they would
When cigarettes and their routines are well-replicated (as with an ecig) and enough nicotine is delivered to create temporary OD (as with a strong / efficient ecig), but the cravings persist, then we can be reasonably sure that we are looking at a chemical dependency.

4. A combination of the above.
Any individual may exhibit any combination (or none) of the above.
In particular, the individual factors (such as certain non-nicotine chemical dependencies, or wanting to smoke after a meal) may be different for different people.

Smoking addiction is complicated. It cannot always be satisfied by switching to an ecig, even a good one and with good mentoring (a high standard of mentoring by an expert is critical to any smoking cessation or avoidance attempt of any kind). Any remaining cravings can usually (but not always) be reduced / removed by the WTA / Snus route in addition. For the very small number of intransigent cases remaining, we know beyond any reasonable doubt that pyrolytic compounds are involved. Luckily these cravings can usually be beaten over time - the need for carbon monoxide, or pyrolytic ahdehydes, or whatever it is, can usually be overcome in time - given sufficient motivation.

Cigarettes are a carefully engineered product. They are engineered to be as addictive as possible without using illegal drugs. To beat them sometimes requires exceptional, expert mentoring.

 

[Nick N]

Not to mention those with addictive personalities in the first place. Whether it be a gambling problem, internet/Facebook/email addiction, smoking, drinking, sex... you name it. Can't blame it all on the vice, just saying.

 

[rolygate]

So, what would happen if one used nicotine as an aid to help focus better and then not use it at all? Would they focus less? If they focus less, would they go back to using nicotine to help them focus again? Would that cause an addiction to keep using nicotine so they can focus better? If they do not focus less, would that mean nicotine has no affect on the way one focuses? To be, or not to be? That is the question.

That is a very good question. We don't know.

In clinical trials, the most improvement in scores on tests for the effect (of any) improvement in cognitive function was shown by subjects with known cognitive impairments of certain types. Others showed zero or little improvement.

On the other hand, they didn't test me first thing in the morning, and tea at that time improves my performance no end. As does vaping, but I prefer my nic in tea at that time.

But, no one has yet tested for improvements vs time vs withdrawal of the active compound. (AFAIK)

 

[mosspa]

Yes Thank you for the correction!!!! Now if everyone that started reading this, I continued because I had my , would read at least up to this point to see that they can not go and vape on 10% as it would be very dangerous. I was just going to keep going with what I was taught about these juices as it was working for me and I was happily satisfied even though your statement meant that I was only vaping .144 mg/ml I would go back and change the earlier post you made if you have not done so already as to try not to misinform anyone about that. I really have enjoyed this debate so far.

Read what I posted. Actually, the percentages were correct even using my flawed thinking. The only mistake was in mixing milligram for gram. If you go back and read the post where I made the wrong calculation, you will see that I made an error of 1000 on both sides of the calculation. Even given my erroneous calculation I was and still am vaping (deep inhale) 48mg. My comments on 10% (i.e., 100mg) were based on not inhaling the vapor. If you really want, I can provide the kinetics, but buccal/nasal absorption is at least 5 times as inefficient, so from a dosage of nicotine perspective, if you don't actually inhale the vapor to your lungs, your actual dose will be much lower. For such exposure (mouthing but not inhaling) I still think 10% (i.e., 100mg) would be a good minimum starting point. However, one caveat is that not only is the transfer much less efficient, but the venous blood routing will add hysteresis to the time of effect, since the venous blood has to go to the heart and then to the lung before it gets into the arterial blood, whereas, vaping and inhaling gets it into the arterial flow almost immediately, even faster than if you mainlined it in your arm. Therefore, no correction to my 10% (100mg) comment needs to be posted. It was correct. I will, however, correct the erroneous post and point to post #204 for an explanation.

 

[rolygate]

Propaganda?! You spread only the research backed by studies biased towards pro vaping! I could do the same thing for smoking tobacco, use only the studies I find that prove my point. Propaganda!?
This is the reason why no one should take any scientific "data" supplied here as serious. Your arguments are fundamentally flawed; you do not address the opposing view, I.e. nicotine and caffeine are addictive. You circle the wagons and site only specific sources that improve your stance on the subject. An argument is linear, my friend, not circular. You can't continually site one or two sources and expect any intelligent individual to believe you.

Um, no. I can provide all sorts of refs that nicotine has no potential for dependence without tobacco. I don't know of any that say otherwise, and I've looked for 6 years but can't find any.

Not sure how many times I have to repeat this, but there are no clinical trials or any other credible evidence that nicotine has any potential for dependence without smoking / tobacco exposure. I want to see them. I'll be glad to see them if you can find any. I've looked for years but can't find any at all. You can also ask Dr Newhouse, who specialises in doping people up with tons of the stuff for months and who has never found a single example of anyone who exhibited any signs of withdrawal or dependence.

Show me!

But I guess the propaganda is so powerful that you can't see past it. It's the emperor's new clothes, my friend - there is nothing there. No matter how hard you look, you won't find any medical evidence for dependence on nicotine created in never-users of tobacco. Clinically speaking, it is clearly impossible to demonstrate, otherwise - believe me - I'd know about it.

It would also be worth a vast sum of money to someone like Glantz. If he's not shouting about the clinical trial/s that show it, you better believe it can't be done.


Obviously, smoking creates dependence on nicotine. That is another matter entirely. I could probably make you dependent on ketchup, given the resources. (As you probably know, ketchup contains a comparatively high amount of nicotine compared to a potato.) For example if I had your undivided attention for some months, and could add 5,000 other compounds of my choice to the ketchup, then the chances are I could make you dependent on ketchup. But as for the rest of the population, ketchup isn't dependence-forming for them, because it doesn't have the 5,000 additional potentiators or synergens needed (or however many it takes to create dependence on something that normally has zero potential for dependence).

 

[rolygate]

I don't make a living promoting vaping, hence my skepticism...

You are absolutely right to be sceptical. Being so allows me to see past the propaganda. Once you look down the rabbit hole, you'd be amazed at how far down it goes, too.

All I ask is that someone show me where I am wrong. Quoting pharma's decades of propaganda doesn't amount to that.

 

[Ablonz]

OK, I can see that. It is still a really high percentage and one would need to take lots of precaution when handling that high of percentage of nicotine based products which is why we recommend not using that unless a person is well informed and takes necessary precautions.

 

[OMRebel67]

I sure am glad I read this thread. I had no idea that nicotine was actually a good drug. This goes against everything I've heard for years. Until February of 2014, I was a 27 year smoker and thought it was a nicotine addiction as well as a psychological addiction that handcuffed most of my adult life. I've read the articles that were posted on this thread before making any comments. Thank you to all of you for enlightening me to the truths and myths of nicotine. This forum and vaping has really done a lot for me and I can't thank y'all enough for helping me get off cigarettes. Sorry to be off topic to the OP, but I felt obliged to share my thoughts.

 

[rolygate]

I actually studied in college to maintain my grades. Guess that's a little too much to ask for this generation... Nothing is preferable. I certainly don't think it is the job of a college professor to get his students dependent on nicotine. Some would see that as criminal, or at least grounds for dismissal...

I can't argue with that. However, there are mitigating circumstances: if a student comes to you and says, "I'm having to take this scrip med from a doctor I persuaded, in order to be able to concentrate and learn", then in my case I'd tell them to drop that and try vaping. I'd be well aware that the chances of creating dependence are low to zero.

And, since if it came to a court case, the charge would be dismissed and I'd get costs on top, there's not too much risk. Someone bringing a court case who couldn't provide a scrap of evidence to support their case is viewed as a PITA by the courts, who in general are surprisingly independent of the gov-pharma-tobacco propaganda machine. They want facts. There are no facts to support nicotine creating dependence.

Not sure how many times this has to be repeated.

If it could be done, it would have been done, and the world would know about it - bigtime.

 

[mosspa]

OK, I can see that. It is still a really high percentage and one would need to take lots of precaution when handling that high of percentage of nicotine based products which is why we recommend not using that unless a person is well informed and takes necessary precautions.

You realize that, this too, is another myth. The toxicity of nicotine is not nearly as great as Big-Pharma would want you to believe. I'm going t receive a 100mg stock solution tomorrow (maybe, if the Gods can get it here on time). If I do get it, I'll vape it straight. I'm sure I'll probably get pretty dizzy. I may even puke (but, I doubt it). Doubling my normal vaping concentration doesn't seem like such a big step to me. And who is "We" in the don't recommend it statement? If you're recommending things, don't you think you should actually know something about what you are 'recommending'?

 

[rolygate]

It's also worth keeping in mind the factor-10 difference in nicotine tolerance between individuals. Some find 6mg (0.6%) strong, some need 60mg (6%). (In regular equipment, of course, not in an RBA.)

Some people (like me) can pour neat 36mg base on their arm and leave it there. It has no effect. I sure wouldn't recommend someone who vapes 6mg in a tank or clearo to do that