Non-smoker thinking of vaping

[OldBatty]

No, there is no real control of dosage with patches. There is so much variation in transdermal absorption through human skin that it makes dosing really difficult. Also, it is very inefficient if you don't give it a carrier like DMSO, and even I wouldn't suggest that. It is a reasonable suggestion, however. I just don't think it will work, and why it is one of the reasons that the patch with nicotine is no more effective than a patch with a placebo in aiding smoking cessation.

First I must say that I wish vaping had been available 30 years ago the first time I quit smoking since patches have a high failure rate compared to vaping. Took me three serious attempts before one stuck.

However you clearly have never quit smoking via the patch. While all it did for me was to take the edge off of craving I absolutely could tell a difference between different brands / strengths of patches. Being a tightwad I even discovered they last about 30-32 hours for me. Problem with that is every third day I ended up putting one on a bed time. Extremely vivid dreams after doing that! No way you cold ever fool anyone who had ever used a real patch with a placebo.

Off to work, still have ten more pages in this thread. Probably be 20 by the time I get home

 

[Nick N]

I do recall having vivid dreams when wearing the patch to bed. Everyone I have talked to that had done the same has always used the word "vivid" to describe it.

 

[OldBatty]

"vivid" as in like a high definition video. I'm one of those people who rarely remembers dreams and then only vaguely the last minute or two. "Well I was in this place that was sort of like some place I used to live or work in, but different. And there were like these people I sort of know..." With the patch it is close ups of people with recognizable faces.

Oh a bit harsh in my post this morning. Bottom line is that while a patch is a poor way to quit and the nicotine its self may act as a placebo in regards to quitting smoking. I will fix my typo here rather than editing the other post and repeat: No way you could ever fool anyone who had ever used a real patch with a placebo. They have real effects that I personally feel helped me keep my sanity and perhaps kept me from being violent to others while quitting.

 

[Nick N]

I agree. Used them for 3 weeks back in '02 when I quit.

 

[rolygate]

................
...No way you could ever fool anyone who had ever used a real patch with a placebo. They have real effects that I personally feel helped me keep my sanity and perhaps kept me from being violent to others while quitting.

Kind of like the opposite to Chantix, then.

 

[nanovapr]

Hi all, I read the first 10 pages, but it went downhill somewhat in the p|ssing contests.

Irishohh, I have a couple of questions?

1. how old are you?
2. have you used recreational substances?
3. do any of your family/friends smoke? vape?
4. do you enjoy fixing/repairing/building/making things?
5. how's your health? how's your parents' health?
6. describe yourself.

Smoking cigs is a complicated addiction. Different aspects appeal to different people.
**********
Hand to mouth ritual.
Flavor.
Nicotine.
Viewing exhaled plumes.
Throat hit.
Self-image [for clarity, I am old. When I was young, smoking was glorified in most media]
**********

Vaping involves a lot of buzzwords. Whoever forgot to move a decimal point above, 10% nic (100 mg/ml) should be handled with rubber gloves and never vaped.

There are buzzwords, and a numbers game. The device you use will invalidate all of the numbers. A 3.7 volt Ego beginner rig will let you vape high nic content safely, because it is so inefficient (and it gets slowly weaker on nic). A modern regulated device that is capable of 12 volts with a good tank will make you vomit at the same nic level. Don't buy into the intertubes ppl that say I LOVE 48MG! IT MAKES ME THINK SO CLEARLY. With an efficient device you are courting heart failure, at any age.

Gas station cigalikes have a charging lifetime of about 30 cycles, with declining performance. A more modern device could last for years with consistent performance from 'fresh-charged' to cutoff. You get what you pay for.

Vaping can be a cool hobby, especially for the technically inclined. The pleasures of winding your own coils, comparing the endless minutia of This vs. That can be very rewarding. If you are feeding an addiction or a ritual, it can be an annoyance. An addict just wants it to work. Now. There are worse addictions , search for 'dope sick' online. Chasing a buzz is not always a good idea.

If you like to make/fix/invent things, mixing your own DIY juice can be very rewarding. You can buy basic glassware cheaply on Evilbay and other places. I would recommend Scubabatdan's spreadsheet. After a while, it's easy to make the best juice in the world for you, and save 80% of the $$ that you spend on the most used expendable.

For smokers, I have saved $10,000 in the (upcoming) four years since I smoked. At my 2-year point, I posted these thoughts. YMMV, don't believe everything you read.

 

[mosspa]

Hi all, I read the first 10 pages, but it went downhill somewhat in the p|ssing contests.

Irishohh, I have a couple of questions?

1. how old are you?
2. have you used recreational substances?
3. do any of your family/friends smoke? vape?
4. do you enjoy fixing/repairing/building/making things?
5. how's your health? how's your parents' health?
6. describe yourself.

Smoking cigs is a complicated addiction. Different aspects appeal to different people.
**********
Hand to mouth ritual.
Flavor.
Nicotine.
Viewing exhaled plumes.
Throat hit.
Self-image [for clarity, I am old. When I was young, smoking was glorified in most media]
**********

Vaping involves a lot of buzzwords. Whoever forgot to move a decimal point above, 10% nic (100 mg/ml) should be handled with rubber gloves and never vaped.

There are buzzwords, and a numbers game. The device you use will invalidate all of the numbers. A 3.7 volt Ego beginner rig will let you vape high nic content safely, because it is so inefficient (and it gets slowly weaker on nic). A modern regulated device that is capable of 12 volts with a good tank will make you vomit at the same nic level. Don't buy into the intertubes ppl that say I LOVE 48MG! IT MAKES ME THINK SO CLEARLY. With an efficient device you are courting heart failure, at any age.

Gas station cigalikes have a charging lifetime of about 30 cycles, with declining performance. A more modern device could last for years with consistent performance from 'fresh-charged' to cutoff. You get what you pay for.

Vaping can be a cool hobby, especially for the technically inclined. The pleasures of winding your own coils, comparing the endless minutia of This vs. That can be very rewarding. If you are feeding an addiction or a ritual, it can be an annoyance. An addict just wants it to work. Now. There are worse addictions , search for 'dope sick' online. Chasing a buzz is not always a good idea.

If you like to make/fix/invent things, mixing your own DIY juice can be very rewarding. You can buy basic glassware cheaply on Evilbay and other places. I would recommend Scubabatdan's spreadsheet. After a while, it's easy to make the best juice in the world for you, and save 80% of the $$ that you spend on the most used expendable.

For smokers, I have saved $10,000 in the (upcoming) four years since I smoked. At my 2-year point, I posted these thoughts. YMMV, don't believe everything you read.

I'm not sure that the point of this is. But, just for the record, I don't accept the notion that using any nicotine delivery device (including manual cigarettes) leads to anything that might be construed as a physical "addiction". I view it as a 'habit', no different than 'over eating', 'over gambling' or 'over using the internet'. If you can point me to some empirical research that demonstrates otherwise, please do.

 

[OldBatty]

I forget the name of the food guy who's advice for the nutritional part of health is the 7-word motto: "Eat food. Mostly plants. Not too much." Hard to argue with that.

Michael Pollan. Before I Googled the answer I asked my wife hoping she would know. She did not, but immediately thought of James A Duke's "Moderation in all things except diversity" Which when searched returns "Remember, moderation in all things, except, perhaps, dietary diversity!" as the actual quote.

Feel free to use her paraphrase and credit Dr Duke

 

[Scottitude]

I'm not sure that the point of this is. But, just for the record, I don't accept the notion that using any nicotine delivery device (including manual cigarettes) leads to anything that might be construed as a physical "addiction". I view it as a 'habit', no different than 'over eating', 'over gambling' or 'over using the internet'. If you can point me to some empirical research that demonstrates otherwise, please do.

Regardless of how you "view" things, food addiction, gambling addiction, and internet addiction, are all true addictions, not habits. They all have their basis in mental health. The habitual aspects are effects, not causes.

Following your logic, things like OCD or cutting are just habits that anyone suffering them can simply and effectively choose to quit whenever they want.

Let's flip the table for a minute - show us your empirical evidence that demonstrates otherwise.

I have mad respect for educators but unless you have a PhD in medicine, psychology, and / or psychiatry, you have zero expertise upon which to base your opinions which makes them no more valid (but exponentially more dangerous) than any other members'.

 

[mosspa]

I have mad respect for educators but unless you have a PhD in medicine, psychology, and / or psychiatry, you have zero expertise upon which to base your opinions which makes them no more valid (but exponentially more dangerous) than any other members'.

Well, I do have a Ph.D. in psychology and psychopharmacology (chemicals and behavior) and over 20 years experience in neuropsychopharmacology (chemicals and neural tissue). Applying the term "addiction" to things that do not produce physical dependence, serves only to allow people to abdicate responsibility. It's not the person, it's the behavior. OCD is a personality disorder, and has nothing to do with "addiction". Neither is 'cutting' an addiction, it is simply an operant response for which the reinforcers are hard to understand because they involve self injury. In either case, Applied Behavioral Analysis has been a very successful therapy in both situations.

 

[Scottitude]

Not that it really matters, but I ain't buyin' it. There was an ample and appropriate opportunity to disclose the level of your education pages ago when you vaguely referenced experiences with your students. Throwing it out there now as a defense mechanism is just a little too convenient.

Good to know your life is perfect though, that nobody you care about has ever suffered any mental illnesses that manifest with physical actions, and that you understand everything about everything better than anyone else on ECF.

Living things and learning things are vastly different. Textbooks provide knowledge, life provides understanding. Textbooks are black and white, reality isn't.

 

[mosspa]

Not that it really matters, but I ain't buyin' it. There was an ample and appropriate opportunity to disclose the level of your education pages ago when you vaguely referenced experiences with your students. Throwing it out there now as a defense mechanism is just a little too convenient.

Good to know your life is perfect though, that nobody you care about has ever suffered any mental illnesses that manifest with physical actions, and that you understand everything about everything better than anyone else on ECF.

Living things and learning things are vastly different. Textbooks provide knowledge, life provides understanding. Textbooks are black and white, reality isn't.

Flame much? Although I didn't specifically mention my highest degrees I didn't think it was necessary and what kind of degree would you expect a professor of neuroscience to have? Anyway, here's a article specific to OCD and habits. It's not internet crap, it is a paper in a respected international journal.

http://www.ejoba.org/PDF/2006_1/Dillenburger_2006.pdf

 

[mosspa]

Good to know your life is perfect though, that nobody you care about has ever suffered any mental illnesses that manifest with physical actions, and that you understand everything about everything better than anyone else on ECF.

I take offense with this. You seem to be suggesting that smoking is a mental illness, but I'll assume you aren't. I, obviously, don't "understand everything about everything better than anyone else on ECF", and, in fact, I understand almost nothing concerning vaping hardware, legal initiatives, etc. However, one thing that I do understand is drugs and chemicals, why people put them into their bodies, and what they do when they are put there. To say that I don't care about people with mental health issues is an insult. You brought up OCD and 'cutting', not me. I just simply stated that neither involves addiction, not that people aren't suffering from/because of these problems. I will give you this.... if you agree that the word addiction really doesn't have any definition if it can be applied to anything that involves repeated potentially detrimental actions I'll agree to stop harping on how various behaviors aren't really results of addictions.

 

[rolygate]

If you all wish to continue this conversation in its present form, you might consider moving to the Outside and continuing there instead, otherwise a Moderator may come along and close this thread to avoid bloodshed. It is probably finished anyway.

The Outside is a private area where you can take the gloves off, we don't allow that in the public forum. Thanks.

 

[Dirty Vapir]

Vaping is the best option ever, its so much more convenient and doesn't leave a nasty smell. Also, its alot more healthier for you!