North Dakota Cancer Coalition spreads a whopper of a lie about e-cigarettes

[retired1]

Was doing a search for something and ran across this little gem.

In it, Kara Dodd, North Dakota Department of Health, writes:

Nicotine solutions for E-cigarettes are offered in differing strengths and vary by company – each with their own concentration methods. Solutions are very concentrated and contain from 500 to more than 1,000 mg of nicotine in one 30 ml or 1 oz. bottle.

Seriously? Since when has it become fashionable and correct to pull numbers out of ones backside without performing due diligence and writing factual pieces? Oh wait. The media does it every single day. Why should a supposed professional organization be any different.

 

[Spazmelda]

Actually, I think that's fairly accurate.

500 mg in 30 ml = ~17 mg/ml.
1000 mg in 30 ml would be double that concentration. ~34 mg/ml.

Some people do vape 36 mg/ml.

 

[retired1]

But that wasn't the purpose of the piece. By inflating the numbers (seriously, look at your ejuice bottle and look at the strength), she's added to the fear mongering and misinformation that's already floating around out there.

And I have yet to see one confirmed report of a death due to ejuice ingestion.

 

[Spazmelda]

I'm not arguing that it's not scare mongering, I'm just saying the statement is accurate. She didn't pull the numbers out of her ..... She didn't inflate the numbers, she just used math to make them scarier.

I've got 240 ml of 12 mg/ml of DIY juice upstairs. That's 240 ml x 12 mg/ml = 2,880 mg of nicotine total. That IS a lot of nicotine. Of course we know that we don't inhale all that nicotine quickly. It takes me maybe 2 months or more to vape 240 ml of juice, and we also know that the ecig doesn't deliver all of that nicotine. The fact remains that I have a bottle with 2,880 mg of nicotine sitting in my bathroom closet.

One could make the numbers even scarier by reporting them in micrograms. Just multiply everything by 1000 and it makes the numbers even huger

 

[NorthOfAtlanta]

While the rest of her article is mostly leftover BS from the 2009 FDA test this should remind all of us to treat our bottles of nicotine with respect as it is highly poisonous in those quantities. I wouldn't want the nicotine police finding out that I have over 220,000 mg of nicotine in my house right now.

 

[Spazmelda]

While the rest of her article is mostly leftover BS from the 2009 FDA test this should remind all of us to treat our bottles of nicotine with respect as it is highly poisonous in those quantities. I wouldn't want the nicotine police finding out that I have over 220,000 mg of nicotine in my house right now.

Ha, yeah. I didn't include the nicotine I have in the freezer downstairs.

 

[AgentAnia]

Kara Dodd, North Dakota Department of Health, writes:

Nicotine solutions for E-cigarettes are offered in differing strengths and vary by company – each with their own concentration methods. Solutions are very concentrated and contain from 500 to more than 1,000 mg of nicotine in one 30 ml or 1 oz. bottle.

While this statement may be factually correct, she's using a scaremongering tactic typical of the antis: She prefaces the numbers with the scary phrase "solutions are very concentrated," implying potential toxicity. Then the numbers are listed, but entirely without context. She also omits any information as to whether the bottles are labeled as to strength. So in effect, in this one statement, she's sending the message that nicotine strengths may vary wildly from bottle to bottle, that these strengths could potentially by toxic, and that users have no idea what strength they're actually consuming.

Public health malpractice at its finest...

 

[NorthOfAtlanta]

The ANTZ are very good at lies of omission, they are artists when it comes to spin.

 

[Petrodus]

Ha, yeah. I didn't include the nicotine I have in the freezer downstairs.

 

[Spazmelda]

Hey, it's not illegal... Yet...

 

[Kurt]

Deleted. Bill makes good points. It was a joke, but maybe not the wisest way to criticize misleading info.

 

[Spazmelda]

Good point Kurt. And what about, well, you know... Cigarettes. ~10 mg of nicotine in each, 20 per pack, 10 packs per carton. 2,000 mg. They don't come in the seductive fruit flavors though.

 

[Petrodus]

There's something called "absorption rate" ... if that's the correct phrase.
The body absorbs nicotine at a lower rate when using
e-cigs than when inhaling burning tobacco.
Or am I off the subject ??

 

[Bill Godshall]

Due to the many false and misleading fear mongering claims about nicotine toxicity, I successfully urged NJOY to label the nicotine in their products by percentage. While the NJOY King contains 45mg/ml, it is correctly labeled as containing 4.5% nicotine. I've urged many other e-cigarette companies to label their nicotine as a percentage, but I'm not aware that any have.

Even worse, many/most e-cig products are inaccurately labeled by only listing the numerator and omitting the denominator.
For example, many companies inaccurately label 8mg/ml as 8mg, 16mg/ml as 16mg, and 24mg/ml as 24mg, which inaccurately doubles the actual amount of nicotine contained in the products (as many/most cartridges only contain .4ml - .6ml).

The amount of nicotine in an e-cigarette is also greatly exaggerated by those who compare it to the amount of nicotine in one tobacco cigarette, or one NRT skin patch or gum. Since one e-cig is equivalent to about a pack of cigarettes (even though many manufacturers claim its equal to two packs), the amount of nicotine in one e-cigarette should be compared to the amount in 1-2 packs of cigarettes or 20-40 pieces of nicotine gum or lozenges.

Kurt wrote:

Enough to kill 16 grown men. And they are in fruit flavors, so we can probably kill 35 small children,

Not sure if that was a joke, but I'm not aware of any evidence indicating that 50mg of nicotine can kill an adult, nor am I aware of any evidence indicating that 25mg of nicotine can kill a small child.

In fact, I'm not aware of ANY scientific evidence that a lethal dose of nicotine has even been estimated (as it would be highly unethical and criminal to conduct a toxicology study to find/estimate the lethal dose of nicotine for any human, as doing so would require killing the participants).

That's also why I strongly object to, and won't reference or forward the The “Dark Truth” Behind e-cigarettes at
E-Cigarette Forum - E-Cigarette Infographic
to anyone else, as it claims nicotine is deadly at levels we already know are not deadly.

I urge Smokey Joe to remove the promotion for that document from ECF (as it could be used against ECF and against e-cigarettes in the future by prohibitionists).

The last thing e-cig advocates should be doing is repeating false fear mongering claims about nicotine.

 

[tommy2bad]

Bill Godshall ;
Not sure if that was a joke, but I'm not aware of any evidence indicating that 50mg of nicotine can kill an adult, nor am I aware of any evidence indicating that 25mg of nicotine can kill a small child.

The fatal human dose has been estimated to be about 50 to 60 mg , note that this is oral administration.

Basis for original (SCP) IDLH: No data on acute inhalation toxicity are available on which to base the IDLH for nicotine. The chosen IDLH, therefore, has been estimated from the human oral lethal dose of 60 mg [Lehman 1938 cited by Patty 1963 and ACGIH 1971].

From here;CDC - Immediately Dangerous to Life or Health Concentrations (IDLH): Nicotine - NIOSH Publications and Products
A lethal dose has been estimated but not from research on humans and certianly not when administered by inhalation. It's at best a guestemate projected from research on mice, rats and such.
I don't think the linked info-graphic is a misrepresentation of the status nic has in poisons research.
You might be right that mentioning it at all iis a bad idea but to say that theirs no basis for the claims might be exaggeration.

 

[Kurt]

Due to the many false and misleading fear mongering claims about nicotine toxicity, I successfully urged NJOY to label the nicotine in their products by percentage. While the NJOY King contains 45mg/ml, it is correctly labeled as containing 4.5% nicotine. I've urged many other e-cigarette companies to label their nicotine as a percentage, but I'm not aware that any have.

Even worse, many/most e-cig products are inaccurately labeled by only listing the numerator and omitting the denominator.
For example, many companies inaccurately label 8mg/ml as 8mg, 16mg/ml as 16mg, and 24mg/ml as 24mg, which inaccurately doubles the actual amount of nicotine contained in the products (as many/most cartridges only contain .4ml - .6ml).

The amount of nicotine in an e-cigarette is also greatly exaggerated by those who compare it to the amount of nicotine in one tobacco cigarette, or one NRT skin patch or gum. Since one e-cig is equivalent to about a pack of cigarettes (even though many manufacturers claim its equal to two packs), the amount of nicotine in one e-cigarette should be compared to the amount in 1-2 packs of cigarettes or 20-40 pieces of nicotine gum or lozenges.

Kurt wrote:


Not sure if that was a joke, but I'm not aware of any evidence indicating that 50mg of nicotine can kill an adult, nor am I aware of any evidence indicating that 25mg of nicotine can kill a small child.

In fact, I'm not aware of ANY scientific evidence that a lethal dose of nicotine has even been estimated (as it would be highly unethical and criminal to conduct a toxicology study to find/estimate the lethal dose of nicotine for any human, as doing so would require killing the participants).

That's also why I strongly object to, and won't reference or forward the The “Dark Truth” Behind e-cigarettes at
E-Cigarette Forum - E-Cigarette Infographic
to anyone else, as it claims nicotine is deadly at levels we already know are not deadly.

I urge Smokey Joe to remove the promotion for that document from ECF (as it could be used against ECF and against e-cigarettes in the future by prohibitionists).

The last thing e-cig advocates should be doing is repeating false fear mongering claims about nicotine.

It was a joke, but you are correct, and I removed it. The value is from Wiki for nicotine (toxicity section) and is one that bounces around here a lot. I am also not aware of any validation of this number, and I believe you have claimed to not find any record of deaths from nicotine in this country for a long time. Correct me if I am wrong on that one, as I heard this second hand from someone in CASAA. Of course, absorption rate is important here. That much nicotine absorbed over the course of a day is no problem. But again, no deaths are no deaths, so much of this may be us perpetuating false information in order to better respect the risks of nic liquid.

My point was that if we are just to be concerned about how much nicotine there is present, there are plenty of OTC nicotine products that can also contain this much nicotine. The joke was a bad attempt by me to describe the OTC NRTs in the same way the ANTZ would. More snark than smart on my part.

This is the document that wiki references:

Nicotine (PIM)

The original reference is Gosselin RE (1988). Clinical toxicology of Commercial Products. VI.ed Baltimore, Williams & Wilkins: 311-313.

I don't have electronic access, and this is not in our library. This value of about 50 mg (30 to 60 mg for the average man, 0.5 - 1.0 mg/kg body weight) absorbed rapidly being lethal is very commonly used here. Perhaps it is based on estimated rat data. Perhaps it is simply wrong. I agree they we need to change our rhetoric here to be based on facts, but this seemed like a reasonable fact at the time. As I said, it does force us to remain respectful of the risks of nicotine to us and others, but if we can do this with more accurate statements, and ones that the ANTZ cannot latch on to, this would be better.

@Petrodus: yes, nic absorption from an ecig is generally slower rise, lower plateau, and slower decline than from smoking a cigarette. But the overall amount of nic absorbed is, depending on the strength, comparable. I have seen unpublished estimates that 22 mg/mL when vaped on a regular ego is about equivalent to smoking, of course depending on how often one takes a drag, holds it, etc.

@tommy2bad: Another good reference to this value. Thanks for posting this!

 

[kristin]

Good point Kurt. And what about, well, you know... Cigarettes. ~10 mg of nicotine in each, 20 per pack, 10 packs per carton. 2,000 mg. They don't come in the seductive fruit flavors though.

And fruity 4 mg nicotine gum is available in a 160 ct. pack that would have 640 mg and even a 20 ct pack would have 80 mg - both well over the fatal dose, as well. And the Tic-Tac-looking and tasting 4 mg mini lozenges come in an 84 ct package that would be 336 mg total. I imagine a kid would be far more attracted to those than a bottle of e-liquid and far more likely to down the whole container in one sitting.

 

[Spazmelda]

I hope that my posts are okay as they stand. My comment to the article was sarcastic and meant to be humorous. The sarcasm was meant to point to the hypocrisy of those saying flavors are to lure in children. I often post my ecig story as a comment to articles, but sometimes the hypocrisy just sets me off. Pretty much nobody criticizes the flavored nicotine gums anymore. Those products are common and well known. We tend to fear the new, even if risks could not logically be claimed to be any higher than risks we are already familiar with.

Never mind that last part. I think I got my threads confused.

 

[Bill Godshall]

Below is the text of an e-mail I sent to about 30 tobacco/nicotine researchers worldwide several weeks ago (as a reply-to-all after one of them claimed that nicotine was highly toxic. So far none of the recipients of my e-mail (including many THR opponents) have provided any studies or other evidence contradicting my assertions.

At a 2010 FDA conference, Neal Benowitz, Dorothy Hatsukami, Mitch
Zeller and nearly all of the other several hundred participants agreed
that long term use of nicotine posed very little if any risks, and
Swedish studies on snus were cited as the best evidence.

Although many anti tobacco/nicotine activists claim that nicotine is
highly toxic, poisonous and lethal, I haven't seen ANY evidence
confirming that excessive nicotine consumption has ever killed a human
(via oral mucosa, transdermally or via inhalation). There have been
some articles speculating that nicotine may have caused a death, but
none that confirmed.

There have been lots of cases of tobacco workers getting "green tobacco
sickness" due to excessive transdermal nicotine absorption (which is
why most wear long sleeves, pants and gloves while harvesting the
crop), but I'm not aware of any fatalities even among workers.

Nicotine tastes very bitter, and swallowing even small doses of
nicotine liquid (i.e. used in e-cigarettes) typically causes immediate
vomiting (similar to swallowing smokeless tobacco juice).

The consumer tobacco/nicotine products that are most likely to deliver
the highest dosages of nicotine to humans are skin patches (e.g. if
someone wore several dozen patches at the same time, as occurred in the
hilarious movie "Thank You For Smoking"). But none of those calling
for a ban on e-cigarettes have called for a ban on skin patches,
probably because most of those lobbying for a ban on e-cigs are funded
to do so by J&K, GSK and Pfizer.

Bill Godshall

The only reply I received (after sending that e-mail) was someone citing the recent news story about an Israeli child who purportedly died after consuming e-liquid. If anyone has seen/heard about the autopsy report of that child, please forward (as I've never heard anything further about that case since a news story said an autopsy would be conducted). If the autopsy concluded that nicotine toxicity killed the child, those plasma nicotine levels could probably be considered a lethal dose (at least for a child of that age).

 

[the_vape_nerd]

um i didn't read all this but i probably will later

in any case, i have about 13 gallons of gasoline in my car and probably another 2 in my garage for the lawn mower, i figure this is probably enough to set my entire house and maybe the neighbor's house on fire as well...that being said i dont plan on lighting any fires with it

who cares how much is in any given container? it all depends on how and what you are using it for