Not all units are created equal

[Iken]

Hey guys and gals!
Miss you guys so very much!!
I was just in email with good customer of mine and had to relay some bad news that I feel many of you needs to be aware of. You guys know how much I absolutely Hate to give bad news, but it is what is unfortunately and honestly I just can't afford to keep trying to take care of problems that I cannot control. I mean, it's not like it's daily or anything to an extreme measure, but I this is why I have to make this post of awareness in an attempt of protection of the business and knowledge to the end user.

Regarding Atomizer/Cartomizers not fitting aftermarket devices .I want to be as delicate as possible as I’m Really not trying to sound off putting or anything as Oem devices is what we live and stand for as they are the soul and blood of our vaping world. I just can’t design an atomizer to be accepted by all the different OEM devices out there that don’t use factory standards. 2 of the major units that cause these problems are the Prodigy series and Provape series. Now, I have a Provape and never had an incident where atomizers weren't fitting and it was one among the first batches, I also had been lent a Prodigy V3 that of which barely accepted anything but Joye atomizers and was stately so until (as I hear it) they have opened up the strict tolerances which I cannot guarantee it to be true as what I had was one of the first few batches. A small amount of folks tend to experience these complications because these adapters have tendencies of being made differently overtime and just by a mere hair would throw everything out of whack. As precise calculations can easily get lost. It’s all done in translation of just one adapter or an atomizer from one Chinese company that was handpicked as the creators preference or maybe even a couple.

The project named Chameleon. We had been working on for the past year or so and has been tested through Bauway,Joye,Slb,Boge, Kanger and Smoktechs 510 atomizers as they hold the popularity in an attempt to be truly universal to fitting all of the variations out there even though there are many different factories that make the 510 model as it is, not to mention that they are indeed all different. Taking a close eye at the threads on these units will show you. From so many units out there, I just can’t keep being liable for all those that don’t fit oem devices. What the guys over at Provape told a customer of mine was to “keep working it in and out till it fits”. Other than that, I am truly sorry for this and I know it's not fair to some, but what can I possibly do? When the Project releases and "if" these problems occur, it would be my problem to sort out and no one else's but my own as it's my device that has been created.
Sincerely,
Isaac

 

[5cardstud]

That is such a great post Isaac and such an honest one. I have only had issue once and you know I have many Ikenvape cartos. But the metal is soft enough to work them in. But hey I don't think any manufacturer in his right mind is going to guarantee their product will fit perfectly on every device made. They wouldn't be in business long. Thanks for being once again a truely great guy and vendor.

 

[warlike36]

I too concur Isaac........... Also I sent ya a PM. Have a great evening !!

 

[Ruppy]

Yeah Isaac dont sweat it. Do what ya can. Every instance of something not fitting Ive found a way around be it working it in. using an adapter, or a minor modification. Your stuff rocks so keep on keepin on (as Joe Dirt would say)

 

[NCVapingLady]

Don't know if this will make ya feel any better, but my hubby's been using your HV510 atties on his Prodigy V3 since last November w/o a hitch. I have been using combinations of your 510 and 801 atties/cartos on both my Puresmoker Icon and Evolv Darwin with no hiccups whatsoever. Hope this puts a bright spot in your day!

 

[btngchck]

I'll take my chances (no problems thus far). Minor nuances can always be overcome for a quality product.

 

[Wylie]

I'm a happy IKV customer and continue to be because I really appreciate them, but I'll try the Devil's Advocate position here, knowing full well some will attack it. Whatever. It's not a condemnation of Isaac, but a thoughtful reply. And I'll even say I agree with your stance, but...

I think the better way to handle this (and this is just my opinion, of course) is to clearly list it on your site. "This cartomizer is known to be incompatible with x mod." Done deal. If I have x mod and buy it anyway, it's my problem. But if you sell a 510 and my PV works with a dozen other vendors' 510 atomizers/cartomizers, what is the customer supposed to think?

 

[Switched]

... and you would be perfectly correct in your recommendation and subsequent statement. OTOH what is so wrong with manufacturing attys and cartos to spec (from the Chinese), it isn't rocket science...

510 = 7 x .5 mm
901 = 8 x .75 mm
801 = 9 x .75 mm

 

[dopeh]

Not to be harsh, but most of this crap we use is made in China by 564168177 different manufacturers. If you want to be safe, couple your PV with the same brand atty. Otherwise, be prepared for the occasional hiccup, you may have to fiddle sometimes. A little sandpaper and 2 minutes of your time is hardly a disaster.

I understand that not everyone is "handy", and those people should stick with cookie cutter equipment.

Isaac, please just put a disclaimer somewhere and be done with it, you can't be expected to babysit every single atty. DOA or defective is one thing, this is quite another imo.

 

[WomanOfHeart]

There's no way that I would expect for you to test every single atty or carto on every single device out there. That's just unrealistic and impossible. There are too many variables involved even in seemingly identical devices! Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't hold you responsible for an IKV atty or carto that wouldn't fit correctly on my Indulgence. You didn't make the PV and I wouldn't expect you to know whether everything is going to fit or not. If there's a reasonable workaround, then I'll use it. I'm not above some minor tweaking and I don't whine about small stuff.

In a perfect world, everything would work and fit right out of the box. And pigs might fly out of my .......

 

[mistinthewoods]

Isaac, I'm peed off! Neither the 510 Gold V2s nor the 801 Fusions fit on my 808 Buzz without an adapter! I pay good money for these cartos and they should work on anything I try to put them on! Geeze! What kinda peanut factory you runnin' ova der anyhoose?!?
I suggest you buy a tap and die set and personally cut the threads on every atty and carto custom for every customer. I would be willing to pay an extra $.50 per atty and $.10 per carto for that service.

 

[Iken]

LOL Mist!

God, I Love you guys! Please know that statement is true more than you know.
Dope and Wiley, you guys have an extremely valid points, but like a really good faithful customer had contacted me recently with the problem with an "Old Goat Mod" Like WomanofHeart was saying even If I blacklist a device like the Prodigy V3 that I found not to be compatible once, then NCVaping lady reports that it works just fine. There is a loss and dillema for both the end user and the business. There are just too many different devices that all have many many different versions labelled to the public or not. Just too many variants and it doesn't help that both Chinese and US makers do and will have inconsistencies of precise threading as it is inevitable. What would be best is to combine all of your ideas into putting a general disclaimer that not everything can be guaranteed . It is terrifying stance to take as it would logically bruise the sales. After going through so many 510s I found that Boge does indeed produce the largest threads of the bunch metering at 6.84mm in diameter, but not the longest as Smoktechs come in the with a 4.56mm in length. The depth is not going to be a problem with the unit were nearly complete with as the center pin will be free moving to ensure a solid contact. Even though Boge is the largest out of the 6 major headlines, those are what we designed the adapter from give a few more thousandths to ensure we can accept a wide variety while retaining Joy (the smallest) for a snug fit.

 

[Chornbro]

Isaac,

I have a Prodigy v3.1 with a 510 top and I've used several different atties/cartos from you... never had an issue with them fitting ; )

Great post, btw!

 

[mgaruccio]

Are you referring to the problems some have been seeing with 306 atties and the reo or was that an actual issue with the width of the threads? I understand some things may have compatibility issues but I'm just curious to know if I will need to continue sanding the threads on my atties

 

[5cardstud]

I'm a happy IKV customer and continue to be because I really appreciate them, but I'll try the Devil's Advocate position here, knowing full well some will attack it. Whatever. It's not a condemnation of Isaac, but a thoughtful reply. And I'll even say I agree with your stance, but...

I think the better way to handle this (and this is just my opinion, of course) is to clearly list it on your site. "This cartomizer is known to be incompatible with x mod." Done deal. If I have x mod and buy it anyway, it's my problem. But if you sell a 510 and my PV works with a dozen other vendors' 510 atomizers/cartomizers, what is the customer supposed to think?

Wouldn't the proper thing be for the PV vendor to make that notice as Ikenvape has no control over what works and what doesn't work on their PVs.

 

[jed]

Isaac,

Appears you are tackling 2 fronts; your atomizers/cartomizers and compatibility with some certain OEM devices and the Chameleon and it’s compatibility with some OEM’s atomizers/cartomizers.

If the manufacturers are members of a certain industry then they should comply with formulated industry standards…period. Where applicable within the formulated standards, limits of +/- tolerances should be set to enable and ensure compatibility. Where member manufacturers within a said industry have exceeded the said standards then for all intents and purposes they have gone proprietary. Whether the deviation from the standards is purposeful or due to poor craftsmanship the result is the same, transgression of boundaries.

If a certain industry has set specific standards for itself and is not self or otherwise regulated then ultimately the customer will be the one that suffers. The manufacturers that comply with the industry standards also suffer because of consumer complaints of incompatibility.

If a certain Bolt Size is advertised then the threads per inch in the coarse thread should be according to the Unified Thread Standard, no matter WHERE you go.

Coarse Thread UNC Series
Bolt Depot - Threads Per Inch Table for US Bolts
MARYLAND METRICS -- THREAD DATA CHARTS (9)

Solution? Don't know.
Are there published industry standards?
Are there accepted tolerances within those standards to enable product compatibility?
Should the vaping community be educated as to what the standards are along with acceptable tolerences?
Shouldn't OEM's publish their specs as you would for the length and size of a bolt?
Should other's publish OEM's specs if they are unwilling to publish themselves?

If yes to the above I think we be good.

 

[5cardstud]

One thing I've done on a tough one is take and old battery and a pair of pliers and clean and re-thread it with that first. These are molded threads and all it takes is the most minute difference and they will be tight.

 

[Iken]

Isaac,

I have a Prodigy v3.1 with a 510 top and I've used several different atties/cartos from you... never had an issue with them fitting ; )

Great post, btw!

Check you out Cbro!
Thank you for the good news and good words! When was your Prodigy purchased?

Are you referring to the problems some have been seeing with 306 atties and the reo or was that an actual issue with the width of the threads? I understand some things may have compatibility issues but I'm just curious to know if I will need to continue sanding the threads on my atties

Not really Mgaruccio, The Reo uses standard Chinese fittings. The previous LR batch was indeed incorrect and since they came from me, I personally had suffered more than thousand$ loss with them. This problem is being remedied so any type of modifications for compatibility will not be necessary

Isaac,

Appears you are tackling 2 fronts; your atomizers/cartomizers and compatibility with some certain OEM devices and the Chameleon and it’s compatibility with some OEM’s atomizers/cartomizers.

If the manufacturers are members of a certain industry then they should comply with formulated industry standards…period. Where applicable within the formulated standards, limits of +/- tolerances should be set to enable and ensure compatibility. Where member manufacturers within a said industry have exceeded the said standards then for all intents and purposes they have gone proprietary. Whether the deviation from the standards is purposeful or due to poor craftsmanship the result is the same, transgression of boundaries.

If a certain industry has set specific standards for itself and is not self or otherwise regulated then ultimately the customer will be the one that suffers. The manufacturers that comply with the industry standards also suffer because of consumer complaints of incompatibility.

If a certain Bolt Size is advertised then the threads per inch in the coarse thread should be according to the Unified Thread Standard, no matter WHERE you go.

Coarse Thread UNC Series
Bolt Depot - Threads Per Inch Table for US Bolts
MARYLAND METRICS -- THREAD DATA CHARTS (9)

Solution? Don't know.
Are there published industry standards?
Are there accepted tolerances within those standards to enable product compatibility?
Should the vaping community be educated as to what the standards are along with acceptable tolerences?
Shouldn't OEM's publish their specs as you would for the length and size of a bolt?
Should other's publish OEM's specs if they are unwilling to publish themselves?

If yes to the above I think we be good.

Right on Jed! That's one of the major problems. If you were to take a 510 atomizer or even a battery to a local machinist, they certainly will not find the correct specs on their own boards as the required taps can only be obtained online. I believe this decision by the Chinese was purposely and has proven to be ungodly aggravating for all of us innovators not to mention their competition on their own homeland. Every manufacture/distributor/retailer what have you, will always want to stand out from the rest proving why they are better and why people should flock to them. Adding the stresses of device 'A' only compatible with Atomizer 'A' thus reoccurring business. Another part of the business world I despise, wise but greedy. Then after all these shenanigans are in place, we have our creators making these units off of translation of the hidden agendas that are happening across the world. I mention the Project named Chameleon to put users at ease while attempting to set an example of what could be a solution to counteract these variants of atomizers/cartomizers to other creators who fabricate their own threading. There is a Yes to a few of your questions, but it should be applied to both factories foreign and local, but that would just be impossible. Long ago a modder named Warped that came up with the RCA jack idea on a device to an accessory and I thought' "That's the future, this is the way all should be"

 

[Tat_skull]

So you just bought a 1969 camaro(mod) the stock 4 barrel(OEM atty) doesn't perform to expectations!! You want performance, so you order a HOLLEY 4 barrel QUADJA-JET(IKV atty or carto) and it wont fit properly on the intake(atty connector) so what do you do, you go get an adapter plate($2.50 adapter), problem solved!! So let's way this out. Added vapor production, throat hit, and flavor VS. the look of an adapter(hmm) I'll add an adapter anyday, to any mod (IF IT'S NECESSARY) for the sake of performance!! Isaac don't sweat the small stuff, you keep making them and I'll keep using them!!!

 

[boochips]

I guess I am behind the times! LOL
Every atty and carto I ever bought from anywhere have worked on my Silver Bullet and Omega. I didn't even realize there was an issue....but of course, Isaac's are the absolute best! Thanks for all the great stuff you sell Isaac!