Of vaping – and sugar – and why emotions are boiling hot.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Alien Traveler

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jul 3, 2014
4,402
5,789
United States
Recently (in some threads) circular and even emotional discussions started whether vaping is a harm reduction or completely harmless thing. So, I’ll try to explain my point of view.

There is nothing completely harmless in our lives. Cars, food, and even children… And life itself is the deadliest endeavor – nobody survived it yet. Sooner or later everybody comes to a chilling realization that each hour that was lived shortens life by 60 minutes.

And let’s speak about vaping as little as possible (to reduce emotions), and make instead a thought experiment.

Suppose refined sugar was invented and went to retail just recently, so that general public has no experience in sugar consumption. Immediately pioneering scientific papers will appear. It will be found that sugar cane plantations are contaminated with GMO strands of sugar cane. It will be found that prolonged frying of sugar in a hot skillet produces foul smell and ugly chemicals which are carcinogenic in the state of California. Right away sugar will be banned in Singapore and soon thereafter it will be heavily taxed in PA. TV news anchors will patiently time and again explain to public dangers of sugar consumptions. Early adopters of sugar, so called sugareaters, will be looked upon as a fringe group in a desperate need of health education. Sugareating will be banned in public places, of course.

And of course sugareaters will discuss their problems on sugareaters’ forums.

Popular questions will be “Where to get sugar in Singapore?”, “How much sugar is too much?”, and, of course “Is sugar harmless?”

Question about Singapore will be mostly ignored – really, how many people around the world can answer it?

“How much sugar is too much?” will bring different answers of course. From “just a little bit” to “in moderation” to “As much as you can. If you do not want to through up yet, then your body wants more sugar.”

And the most debated question will be “Is sugar harmless?” Paper about sugar and a skillet will be unanimously and rightfully debunked (really, no sane sugareater will ever try to eat burnt sugar). It will be noted many times that sugar is part of all vegetables and fruits and so it should be even beneficial for health. Weak attempts to call for moderation (“but what if…”) will have some success but will not prevail.

As years passed, medical science will find out (with the help of sugareaters as volunteers for research) that sugar is bad for teeth (but good teeth brushing habits can prevent it) and excess of sugar consumption leads to obesity.

Then there will be new answers on old questions on sugareaters’ forum: “sugar is harmless if you properly brush you teeth and do not overeat it”. But by this time most of general public will be converted to sugareating and PA will be forced to remove its sin tax. Not so sure about Singapore.
 

VNeil

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 30, 2014
2,726
6,866
Ocean City, MD
Sorry but your analogy is totally off base. Not one vaper has yet been identified as having been actually harmed. Much less died an early death due to it.

On the other hand, 35% of americans are obese and 65% are overweight. 25% of the elderly are diabetic, while 10-12% of the entire adult population is diabetic. Diabetes has reached epidemic proportions, from 1% of the population 30 years ago to 10-12% now. What has changed? The processed food industry in that time has reduced fat and replaced it with sugar.

I don't know how you can compare the two.

As I've said repeatedly, vaping has already proven to be safer than anything we consume. Because all of our raw food supply is contaminated with potentially deadly microbes. All of it. The worst is the vegetable supply partly because most people erroneously believe it is perfectly safe to eat.

But no one constantly worries here about death by salad, despite the fact that many people do die that way every year. They just worry about vaping, which has PROVEN to be harmless, to the extent any of our food supply is really well tested.

Why is that? It's all about propaganda. But just like it's almost impossible to cult bust it is impossible to get that simple point across here. Actually this discussion has a lot in common with cult busting since those affected never admit they are propagandized.
 

Str8vision

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 26, 2013
1,915
5,249
Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
Unfortunately, the sugar advocates failed to realize their product's success had cut into the profits of powerful and entrenched corn syrup producers hereafter known as Big Syrup or "BS". BS producers quickly realized sugar's taste was vastly preferred over that of their product and so viewed sugar as a direct threat to their bottom line...$$$. Over the years the BS industry had regularly paid large sums of money to influential politicians mainly to ensure their product wasn't scrutinized and or over regulated. Once they perceived sugar as a threat they began meeting with their political beneficiaries and voiced strong opposition to sugar's continued availability in the marketplace. These influential politicians feared that sugar gaining ground in the marketplace would cause BS's profits to decline and if that were to happen, their annual monetary "gifts" might also decline. They use their positions on powerful congressional committees to exert pressure on the FDA to investigate/regulate this horrible dangerous product. Failing to scientifically find a single health concern associated with the consumption of sugar, the FDA nonetheless moves to regulate it out of existence and begins this process by first spreading rumors through mainstream media insinuating that sugar is the root of all evil in the world. Now believing that sugar is the edible equivalent of the anti-Christ a clueless and gullible general public -demands- their innocent children be protected from exposure. With a cheering public behind it, the FDA legally deems sugar to be an "evil product" and regulates the bejesus out of it. The price of sugar skyrockets making it economically unsuitable for a daily sweetener and it falls back into the shadows from whence it came, a fringe product used by a few trendy yuppies.

I know for a fact that sugar is hazardous to human health, inspired by California's scientific techniques I force fed a five pound bag to a white lab rat and it died. Proof positive.
 

bnrkwest

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 6, 2011
10,873
36,891
Somewhere out there
Unfortunately, the sugar advocates failed to realize their product's success had cut into the profits of powerful and entrenched corn syrup producers hereafter known as Big Syrup or "BS". BS producers quickly realized sugar's taste was vastly preferred over that of their product and so viewed sugar as a direct threat to their bottom line...$$$. Over the years the BS industry had regularly paid large sums of money to influential politicians mainly to ensure their product wasn't scrutinized and or over regulated. Once they perceived sugar as a threat they began meeting with their political beneficiaries and voiced strong opposition to sugar's continued availability in the marketplace. These influential politicians feared that sugar gaining ground in the marketplace would cause BS's profits to decline and if that were to happen, their annual monetary "gifts" might also decline. They use their positions on powerful congressional committees to exert pressure on the FDA to investigate/regulate this horrible dangerous product. Failing to scientifically find a single health concern associated with the consumption of sugar, the FDA nonetheless moves to regulate it out of existence and begins this process by first spreading rumors through mainstream media insinuating that sugar is the root of all evil in the world. Now believing that sugar is the edible equivalent of the anti-Christ a clueless and gullible general public -demands- their innocent children be protected from exposure. With a cheering public behind it, the FDA legally deems sugar to be an "evil product" and regulates the bejesus out of it. The price of sugar skyrockets making it economically unsuitable for a daily sweetener and it falls back into the shadows from whence it came, a fringe product used by a few trendy yuppies.

I know for a fact that sugar is hazardous to human health, inspired by California's scientific techniques I force fed a five pound bag to a white lab rat and it died. Proof positive.
BS producers, Luv it! LOL
 

RandyF

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Apr 1, 2013
1,274
1,482
Arizona
No one can agree an something we can't possibly know yet. Whether vaping is harmful long term will be decided long from now, to debate it now is simply conjecture. What everyone can agree on is it is much safer than smoking and it should be an adult activity/hobby (which guarantees underage participation), does anything else really matter?
 

Eskie

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
May 6, 2016
16,087
77,743
NY
S
On the other hand, 35% of americans are obese and 65% are overweight. 25% of the elderly are diabetic, while 10-12% of the entire adult population is diabetic. Diabetes has reached epidemic proportions, from 1% of the population 30 years ago to 10-12% now. What has changed? The processed food industry in that time has reduced fat and replaced it with sugar.

Can you please provide one legitimate clinical study to support your statement? You are cherry picking unrelated data and attempting to establish causation. Sugar, whether used in moderation or excess, does not cause diabetes. That has been debunked for decades.
 

VNeil

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 30, 2014
2,726
6,866
Ocean City, MD
No one can agree an something we can't possibly know yet. Whether vaping is harmful long term will be decided long from now, to debate it now is simply conjecture. What everyone can agree on is it is much safer than smoking and it should be an adult activity/hobby (which guarantees underage participation), does anything else really matter?
You do realize that it is very unlikely vaping will ever get legitimate long term studies?

Cigarettes are almost unique in that it has been well studied. For two reasons. One, because it is quite harmful the results are quite obvious and rise above the background noise. Second, people either smoke(d) or they didn't/don't. So it's easy to carve up cohorts.

You can't do that for many other things. Where would you find a cohort of people that never ate green beans or corn? Because of that there are few legit long term studies of anything. Suppose you want to study the effects of long term exposure to wireless internet routers. Where would you find people never exposed? How could you possibly gauge the lifetime average ensure rate (integrated over time and distance to routers)?

In fact, there is previous little we will ever know about long term exposure to anything.

For vaping, smoking history probably pollutes any findings you might come up with. The only possibility would involve never smokers that spent a lifetime vaping. We'll all be dead by then.

We have to go by what we know...

We know there is no current evidence of harm, after 7 years.

We know ex smoking vapers routinely report good medical checkup and many of them are under close mecical scrutiny due to copd from smoking, and other issues

We know that Dr. Polosa, for example ,has formalized the above anecdotal evidence in studies finding improvement in copd patients totally unexpected by medical science and not found in ex smokers that don't vape.

We know that PG is a powerful antibacterial/antiviral. Something ignored here as people wring their hands over unknown harms. This could be a huge health benefit.

We know that nicotine has proven health benefits. I have a friend who finds nic to eliminate his colitis symptoms. When he goes to zero nic they come back (and never seen that suggested here)

We know a LOT more than most people here acknowledge.
 

VNeil

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 30, 2014
2,726
6,866
Ocean City, MD
Can you please provide one legitimate clinical study to support your statement? You are cherry picking unrelated data and attempting to establish causation. Sugar, whether used in moderation or excess, does not cause diabetes. That has been debunked for decades.
Can you otherwise explain the epidemic levels of diabetes? It's not excessive fat intake. That was replaced with sugar in virtually all processed foods.
 
Last edited:

Eskie

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
May 6, 2016
16,087
77,743
NY
Can you otherwise explain the epidemic levels of diabetes? It's not excessive fat intake. That wS replaced with sugar in virtually all processed foods.

Diabetes Myths

then again, maybe you believe the American Diabetes Association is a shifty lobbyist group funded by Coke O'Cola.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DavidOck

VNeil

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 30, 2014
2,726
6,866
Ocean City, MD
Diabetes Myths

then again, maybe you believe the American Diabetes Association is a shifty lobbyist group funded by Coke O'Cola.
I don't believe any govt funded science on politicized subjects. I'm not sure how anyone can, after reading vaping junk science.
 

VNeil

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 30, 2014
2,726
6,866
Ocean City, MD
Diabetes Myths

then again, maybe you believe the American Diabetes Association is a shifty lobbyist group funded by Coke O'Cola.
I really like Pepsi. I could easily drink a 2L bottle a day. You don't see any problem with that, after 50 years or so?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread