Official DNA 40 introduction

[RebelGolfer72]

LOL KG, I'll bet this is going to come up again and again as it already has...<sigh>

NEWSFLASH if nickel causes cancer so dies TITANIUM keep reading...

Based on what the EPA says, nickel carbonyl and nickel refinery dust (includes subsulfides) are carcinogens, not nickel itself.
Nickle Compounds | Technology Transfer Network Air Toxics Web site | US EPA

How nickel carbonyl is formed:
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Composition of nickel refinery dust:
An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

The EPA says "Nickel occurs naturally in the environment at low levels. Nickel is an essential element in some animal species, and it has been suggested it may be essential for human nutrition."

The EPA recommends that drinking water levels for nickel should not be more than 0.1 mg per liter (nickel itself is insoluble so must be a compound). The OSHA has set an enforceable limit of 1.0 mg nickel/m3 for metallic nickel and nickel compounds in workroom air to protect workers during an 8-hour shift over a 40-hour work week.
ATSDR - Toxicological Profile: Nickel

So based on the above if we include compounds then might as well say Titanium is a carcinogen as well:
CCOHS: What's New Archive

And lets not forget nickel allergy, guess what so is titanium:
Titanium | MELISA Medica Foundation

So until I see mass spec data of vapor from my Ni200 atty, I believe I am far closer to inhaling TiO2 than nickel refinery dust or nickel carbonyl. Use detergents with whiteners? Use paper? Breathe in a room with white walls? Yep, yep and yep. And I'm not worried about that either.

Sleep tight


Out of all the affordable and reasonably nonreactive at lower temperatures metals, Nickel is an excellent choice.

...or do you own/use a toaster? Electric coffee maker? -- things that generaly use NiCr heating coil wire

 

[HolmanGT]

Remember, most pre-made coils that are in cartos/clearos use NiCr wire and in many cases pure nickel legs on those nichrome wires. Likewise, most attys are made of stainless which can contain up to 20% nickel...unless you have a cheaper one that is just plated brass which you have a thin plating of nickel (chrome is too expensive to do effectively) protecting you from the lead that is in the brass.

- in other words, the nickel in this temperature controlled environment is really the least of my worries

Rebel,

That was the gist of the conversation that Brandon and P.B. had in the video only they glossed over it an you get a little more specific than they did. Actually now that I think about it their thin conversation on the subject of Nickel may have been intentional. I know that the Evolv guys are very aware of the FDA looking into e-cig safety issues and may at the moment not want to give away any research and nickel pro-arguments.

They know they will be cloned so why right up front give the enemy all their research. Just a thought to why Evolv may be kind of holding back on talking about the Nickel. Would they knowingly put something on the market that would open themselves to all kinds of health risk to end users. They are an American company unlike Chinese companies would be in court for the rest of their lives if they put out a product that would knowingly fail FDA approval and harm people.

I am not arguing for Nickel just presenting some thoughts about why Nickel and why Evolv wouldn't use something that would end their business. i.e. thinking out loud.

It's too early in the morning for these kind of thought experiments. .

 

[350ZMO]

I am surprised about the amount of discussion of the safety of Ni200 in this thread. Evolv's future business depends on nickel wire being safe to vape. Are they not trusted? Even with inside industry contacts and money to spend on research? They aren't there for a quick buck, as far as I can see, and John and Brandon appear to be intelligent human beings in the videos I've seen them in. Just my thoughts. Maybe I'm missing something here

Its not an issue of trust, they are fine folks. There is no data. Unless one of the ecigs tested in that report link SeniorBoy provided was ni200. Until that report there was none on Kanthal/nichrome whatever was in those sample ecigs either. Not that I'm worried about those either. But heat and in the presence of acids or alkali, can allow the generation of compounds both organic and inorganic, ie acrolein and who knows what with the metals used in our wire. So it is a valid concern. Mitigating that is the Temperature limiting in the 40, ie the lower the temp the less likely the generation of bad stuff. But we don't know what temp to stay below until we get that data except for acrolein. So some will be ok with that and others won't. We need a sticky about this because it is going to keep coming it.

 

[350ZMO]

Rebel,

That was the gist of the conversation that Brandon and P.B. had in the video only they glossed over it an you get a little more specific than they did. Actually now that I think about it their thin conversation on the subject of Nickel may have been intentional. I know that the Evolv guys are very aware of the FDA looking into e-cig safety issues and may at the moment not want to give away any research and nickel pro-arguments.

They know they will be cloned so why right up front give the enemy all their research. Just a thought to why Evolv may be kind of holding back on talking about the Nickel. Would they knowingly put something on the market that would open themselves to all kinds of health risk to end users. They are an American company unlike Chinese companies would be in court for the rest of their lives if they put out a product that would knowingly fail FDA approval and harm people.

I am not arguing for Nickel just presenting some thoughts about why Nickel and why Evolv wouldn't use something that would end their business. i.e. thinking out loud.

It's too early in the morning for these kind of thought experiments. .

Yeah but they aren't making the wire or the attys or the juice. Some might say they just want to make money while they can and get out if it goes south. Personally I don't think they are holding anything back except future product developments. It would be in their best business interest to release the data if they had it whether that data was positive or negative. And Brandon was vaping it in that video. Some will say of course he was to sell their product.

Given the plethora of juices and flavors, I don't think we'll see a complete test any time soon.

 

[HolmanGT]

Its not an issue of trust, they are fine folks. There is no data. Unless one of the ecigs tested in that report link SeniorBoy provided was ni200. Until that report there was none on Kanthal/nichrome whatever was in those sample ecigs either. Not that I'm worried about those either. But heat and in the presence of acids or alkali, can allow the generation of compounds both organic and inorganic, ie acrolein and who knows what with the metals used in our wire. So it is a valid concern. Mitigating that is the Temperature limiting in the 40, ie the lower the temp the less likely the generation of bad stuff. But we don't know what temp to stay below until we get that data except for acrolein. So some will be ok with that and others won't. We need a sticky about this because it is going to keep coming it.

350,

I don't have a real argument with anything anyone is saying about the DNA-40/Ni200 but I agree this probably needs to be in it's own thread. We could argue/debate this till the cows come home but no data no conclusion - EVER.

One great big problem with these topics is like Cigs the data and conclusions only took a hundred years and you can still find folks debating that issue, Teflon frying pans still being sold, we still drink out of plastic with known problems. I am just rambling but there are even folks that still have a problem with fluoride in their drinking water. I don't know if any of these things are a real problem or a very good thing but I do know that debates on these heath and safety issues seem to go on for ever and usually come down to two cult followings pro and con. - Ugh!

 

[350ZMO]

...or do you own/use a toaster? Electric coffee maker? -- things that generaly use NiCr heating coil wire

Yep electric space heaters, stoves, ovens, heat strips in house heatpump systems for when it gets really cold. But none in combination with ejuice.

I brought up Titanium because it has come up in this thread already as there is another temp limit/control product coming that will use titanium wire and some think it is safer but there is no data on that either.

With that said I honestly believe we inhale more bad stuff driving down the interstate, certainly stuck in traffic in large cities. Just no data to prove it. Think of the various metals in an engine reaching very high peak temperatures and pressures.

 

[SeniorBoy]

This might be the appropriate time to mention the Dr. Farsalinos Crowd Funding study again. Dr. F has already indicated he will use a DNA40 to conduct part of his tests. Naturally he plans to test Kanthal and given juices to see exactly what they (Kanthal, Ni200, and ejuice) emit at a given temperature. He also plans to test Temperature Control. The presence of a given "nasty" element is not the total story. The real issue is the level of a "nasty" and if this level is generally regarded as "harmfull" How far he goes with the testing is of course dependent on funding. I just did a back of the napkin calculation and unfortunately the Dr. F study is currently around 8k behind the goal of 72K. I'm disappointed that more vendors have not stepped up to the plate and contributed since they are the primary target for his funding. Naturally, "consumers" like us are free to contribute but we do not represent his target for funding. The previous study which Dr. F performed and completed dealt with the "nastys" in ejuice and those that rose to an unacceptable level which pose a health risk.

 

[350ZMO]

350,

I don't have a real argument with anything anyone is saying about the DNA-40/Ni200 but I agree this probably needs to be in it's own thread. We could argue/debate this till the cows come home but no data no conclusion - EVER.

One great big problem with these topics is like Cigs the data and conclusions only took a hundred years and you can still find folks debating that issue, Teflon frying pans still being sold, we still drink out of plastic with known problems. I am just rambling but there are even folks that still have a problem with fluoride in their drinking water. I don't know if any of these things are a real problem or a very good thing but I do know that debates on these heath and safety issues seem to go on for ever and usually come down to two cult followings pro and con. - Ugh!

Exactly!

Until then I guess I'll just have to continue enjoying the temperature protected vape. When my rig puts out so much yummy vapor under 410F it condenses on the mod and obscures the window, I smile ear to ear.

Kudos again to Evolv and the beta testers.

And like Heespharm pointed out there are many other reasons to enjoy the DNA40 less Ni200.

 

[dougward1960]

the study is up to $12,119.00 as of now

 

[Limpar]

Its not an issue of trust, they are fine folks. There is no data. Unless one of the ecigs tested in that report link SeniorBoy provided was ni200. Until that report there was none on Kanthal/nichrome whatever was in those sample ecigs either. Not that I'm worried about those either. But heat and in the presence of acids or alkali, can allow the generation of compounds both organic and inorganic, ie acrolein and who knows what with the metals used in our wire. So it is a valid concern. Mitigating that is the Temperature limiting in the 40, ie the lower the temp the less likely the generation of bad stuff. But we don't know what temp to stay below until we get that data except for acrolein. So some will be ok with that and others won't. We need a sticky about this because it is going to keep coming it.

Do you have a link to the report Seniorboy posted? Thanks

 

[RebelGolfer72]

Question for those using Kanthal builds on the DNA40 boards...
Anyone notice when you fire a kanthal (or NiChrome build-- I e anything not in temperature mode), you see the power "ramp up" in like 3 steps vs the instant set power like the dna30 did. I *think* I can detect this in vaping like that, but I say "think" because is this something "new" with this rev, or is it a case of it being something that always was, but I didn't notice since the display didn't show the ramp up steps.

Anyone else notice this, or know anything about it, or is this all in my head?

 

[GerhartCss]

Anyone else notice this, or know anything about it, or is this all in my head?

I did notice this when I was messing around with my Tobh on the VF DNA 40, but I don't own a DNA 30 so I didn't realize it was different. It's like the opposite of what happens with the ni 200 wire, which jumps above your set watts and then drops down.

 

[dr g]

It's how it always was, this board just shows what's happening in real time.

 

[RebelGolfer72]

That would be how I would describe it. It's most noticeable on the first puff after not using it for a few minutes, as the coil heat up time does feel longer. However for subsequent puffs when chain vaping since the coil is already pre-warmed, I felt like i was getting better quality pulls, as the lag allowe me to take regular pulls on it, and not having to cut them short out of fear of toasting the wick/juice.

I am pretty much sold on the temp control and using ni200 builds so it isn't a huge thing..

After typing this I see that it was always happening.... So I guess this was a good proof of the "placebo effect" for me

 

[TheKiwi]

Any chance anyone knows when the dna40 chip set will be avail for consumer purchase? I'm assuming it's gonna be a couple of months more at least.


Burping out loud using Tapatalk

 

[KTMRider]

Any chance anyone knows when the dna40 chip set will be avail for consumer purchase? I'm assuming it's gonna be a couple of months more at least.


Burping out loud using Tapatalk

There was a couple of vendors selling just the chip.

Here's one and it's in stock (and not overpriced like others).
Evolv DNA 40D (retail box) | Protovapor.com

 

[SeniorBoy]

Any chance anyone knows when the dna40 chip set will be avail for consumer purchase? I'm assuming it's gonna be a couple of months more at least.


Burping out loud using Tapatalk

If you promise not to tell anyone, here is the link with another thought. BTW, this is where I purchased my XPV 40 which has been rock solid and still available.

Evolv DNA 40D (retail box) | Protovapor.com NOTE: the USB charging board is also available on the same page. I have not ordered this yet.

They also provide the following with tips. This should be a MUST READ at:

Technical: DNA-40D & temperature protection | Protovapor.com

I would also suggest that if you use cotton like I do (Bio Wick) with Ni200 consider some juice on the cotton BEFORE you thread it through the coil. A Ni wrap is easily deformed.

 

[Coldrake]

From Breaktru's modding forum.

"Some people have asked about the concerns of using pure nickel wire for coils. Here is what Brandon of Evolv has posted in the Facebook beta group:

OK so John and I have been seeing quite a few emails concerned with the Nickel wire used with the DNA 40. We decided to write a response that I think may be interesting to all of you. Feelfree to steal from it any or all parts to drive away the hypothetical Nickel boggeyman

Original email:
Hi, Off the back of your announcement today of the new DNA 40 board and it's ability to control the temperature of a nickel coil, there has been much concern on vaping forums about the use of nickel wire as a coil. Here is an exert of some of the comments: "Bad, bad idea. Look up the toxicology of nickel and ask if you want to heat that and inhale the result. I won't. " "Nickel is relatively chemically unreactive to some things, but not to others. It reacts very rapidly with carbon monoxide. And nickel carbonyl is really evil crap. And heating any organic flavour is going to resul in some carbon monoxide production. " "So in your opinion using nickel or nichrome as heating wire for vaping is dangerous? I don't know enough about it to judge if you're right or wrong. I hope you're wrong because I think this about to be the next big thing in vaping. This technology is going to start popping up in mass market devices very soon and some premade atties are going to come with nickel rather than nichrome. " Are you able to allay any of these concerns over using nickel wire? Is there a specific type or grade of nickel we use? Does nickel wire pose any more harm than Kanthal A1? Kind regards

Our response:
We agree Nickel Carbonyl is truly evil crap. Fortunately, there isn't any here.

Point 1: We aren't generating carbon monoxide. The whole point of temperature protection is to, well, protect from elevated temperatures. Heating doesn't generate carbon monoxide. You have to be getting combustion or pyrolysis. And you have to be combusting in a fuel-rich (less oxygen that stoichiometric) environment. Like a cigarette. We never get anywhere near combustion temperature, and even if we did (say, one turned the temperature limit up to 2000 degrees) the environment in an atomizer is oxygen rich, not fuel rich. So you would get carbon dioxide, not monoxide. To get pyrolytic decomposition of the fluid into carbon monoxide and hydrogen, we would want a coil temperature of about 1500F and you'd need to have it sealed off from air completely.

Point 2: If this was a problem, we would have already seen it. The Mond process you describe (nickel ore to nickel carbonyl to nickel metal) is how one refines nickel from ore. The commercial coils are already 80% nickel and run at higher temperatures when they dry out. If we were getting nickel carbonyl production, that would refine the nickel out and we would end up with a porous wire with only 20% chromium left. That's not what happens.

Point 3: Given that all the real research, vapor analysis and long term studies that have been done to this point have been done with commercial cigalikes, all of which use nichrome coils (80% nickel and not at all protected from overheating) if there was a substance as toxic as nickel carbonyl in the vapor, the anti-ecig forces would be screaming that from every rooftop. Nobody has found any, even in devices that aren't temperature controlled. One study did find some metallic nickel and metallic chromium from pitting in the vapor steam, so they were obviously looking for metallic compounds.

I'm attaching the Goniewicz research paper which is one often cited by those on both sides of the e-cigarette safety debate. The study looked at products using nichrome heating coils. And yes, they measured nickel. The study also looked for carbon monoxide in the vapor stream and found none. Zero. The following excerpt is from the study:

"The amounts of toxic metals and aldehydes in e-cigarettes are trace amounts and are comparable with amounts contained in an examined therapeutic product."

Dr. Michael Siegel said of the Goniewicz paper:

"The most important finding in this study (that the authors failed to acknowledge) was that all of the trace levels of metals they found in e-cigarette aerosol were within permissible exposure limits for FDA approved inhalable drugs and devices (e.g. nicotine inhaler, asthma inhalers) per Pharmacopeial Convention."

Basically it boils down to anything a Nickel 200 coil would do, a nichrome coil would already be doing (and worse due to higher temperatures) and nichrome coils are the only ones that have been studied in any meaningful detail by the real scientists, labs and MDs.

What Kanthal is or is not doing, we cannot say as we haven't really studied it.

What is a problem with the commercially available nickel 200 wire is they use a particularly nasty tasting oil in the drawing process. So if you roll a new coil without degreasing the wire first, you initially get a nasty taste from that oil. A good washing with acetone or simple green, followed by rinsing in water, solves that problem. But that is something to point out if people are reporting weird chemical tastes when they first try it.

Thanks,
Brandon
Evolv, LLC "

With that said I honestly believe we inhale more bad stuff driving down the interstate, certainly stuck in traffic in large cities. Just no data to prove it. Think of the various metals in an engine reaching very high peak temperatures and pressures.

World Health Organization: Outdoor Air Pollution Causes Cancer

 

[Rossum]

This might be the appropriate time to mention the Dr. Farsalinos Crowd Funding study again. Dr. F has already indicated he will use a DNA40 to conduct part of his tests. Naturally he plans to test Kanthal and given juices to see exactly what they (Kanthal, Ni200, and ejuice) emit at a given temperature. He also plans to test Temperature Control. The presence of a given "nasty" element is not the total story. The real issue is the level of a "nasty" and if this level is generally regarded as "harmfull" How far he goes with the testing is of course dependent on funding. I just did a back of the napkin calculation and unfortunately the Dr. F study is currently around 8k behind the goal of 72K. I'm disappointed that more vendors have not stepped up to the plate and contributed since they are the primary target for his funding. Naturally, "consumers" like us are free to contribute but we do not represent his target for funding.

Well, if vendors won't fund it adequately, then it's up to consumers like us. In the end, we're the ones who benefit the most from knowing what risks are involved when we decide what equipment and consumables to purchase.

 

[350ZMO]

Do you have a link to the report Seniorboy posted? Thanks

All great reads for Ni200.

SeniorBoys:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/variable-voltage-apv-discussion/612272-official-dna-40-introduction-83.html#post14432638

SmokeyJoes:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/variable-voltage-apv-discussion/612272-official-dna-40-introduction-82.html#post14432023

Coldrakes:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/variable-voltage-apv-discussion/612272-official-dna-40-introduction-118.html#post14468700

Based on what the EPA says, nickel carbonyl and nickel refinery dust (includes subsulfides) are carcinogens, not nickel itself:
http://www.epa.gov/ttnatw01/hlthef/nickel.html

How nickel carbonyl is formed:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja01332a013

Composition of nickel refinery dust:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10807039.2011.588152?journalCode=bher20#preview

And from the CDC: The EPA recommends that drinking water levels for nickel should not be more than 0.1 mg per liter (nickel itself is insoluble so must be a compound). The OSHA has set an enforceable limit of 1.0 mg nickel/m3 for metallic nickel and nickel compounds in workroom air to protect workers during an 8-hour shift over a 40-hour work week:
ATSDR - Toxicological Profile: Nickel

Tips and Tricks:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/variable-voltage-apv-discussion/612272-official-dna-40-introduction-118.html#post14468626