OMB publishes the FDA's deeming regulation information on the December agenda

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Technohydra

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DC2

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I only have a second top post, but the original patent on the base technology for these devices can be located easily from the early 1960's, and I will research to attempt to provide a source. Doesn't that technically qualify the devices for exemption from the deeming capabilities, as the base design of the device is originating prior to the framework of the deeming authority?

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/504821-ecigarette.html
Please read this thread, and then please post your thoughts after reading...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ing-why-deeming-reg-would-ban-all-e-cigs.html
 

soba1

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On review, I do not believe that the e-cig would qualify for an exemption in and of itself...but I smell a way to put the FDA in court and keep them there for a couple of months. Even losing battles have their purposes, after all.

Please tell me you're an attorney....
Also is there any constitutional grounds for a fight.
As in the right to LIFE liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
 

NicoHolic

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Those who have the money to take the FDA to court are the big cigalike suppliers; V2, NJOY, Blu (Lorillard), and now RJR with VUSE. It's in their best interest that nicotine only be available for retail in disposables and pre-filled cartos (which are inherently more safe "for the children.") If anything, cigalikes are the only e-cigs that might automatically be deemed substantially equivalent to those available prior to 2007.
 

Technohydra

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Sadly, I am not an attorney, but I am a very well-read student of the law. I have represented myself in several civil actions and won them all (scumbag landlord tried to ding my for enough money in damages to a broken down apartment to build a new one), and have prepared legal briefs and documents for others to file in court, with advice on how to win their cases. They have had a well above average rate of receiving favorable results. I have also studied government and constitutionality of the federal court rulings, and feel I have a realistic grasp of what is possible in the SC.

I do feel that there is a constitutional basis for our argument, but not in the way many are thinking. No law will ever limit our ability to vape, as it is performing a legal action (consuming nicotine) in the manner we choose. This is our right as Americans. However, there is no constitutional protection for the right of people to manufacture and sell the products they want, because those products may be contraindicated by other laws. So whereas they will never be able to prevent me from vaping, they can pass laws that prevent me from buying the components for the juice and also prevent others from mixing it and selling it to me.

One thing that we can do is get together in mass co-ops and purchase either 100mg unflavored in enormous quantities and freezer it for the long haul, or perform a large buy of 0.990 nic and have it converted into usable product for storage (I am not advocating anyone do this on their own, the amount of training in chemical safety needed to handle this chemical at 99% purity is huge, and just a pair of gloves isn't going to cut it). I have 2 litters of .990 nic stocked for personal mixing, and it will supply me with juice till far after I have died in 60 years or so. Once we have that nic in our hands the FDA loses all power over us. We can come here and exchange flavor recipes and CAD designs to take to our local machine shop to have a new mod made for us.

On the legal front, we have no choice but to stop the attitudes of fatalism that I see a lot of. If you are already waving the white flag this early in the game, roll into your shallow grave and make way for the people who still have a pulse. We lose this game when we say we are done fighting, and not a moment before that. No one tells us when we are done fighting for our rights but us, and it's about time some people remembered that. We have a huge amount of opportunities to make this go our way, from every little city council meeting to the NYC ban. In case some haven't noticed, there are people giving everything to help us win this (I recall the transgender person who testified at the end of the NYC council hearing...what kind of courage does it have to take to get up in front of a city and have your lifestyle revealed?). The only reason I am not at every single one of these national meetings to speak personally is that my job will not allow for me to do so; if I had the means, I would be at every single .......ed hearing in the nation. We have to come together and use this place as a thinktank to keep one step ahead of the same old ANTZ crap that we will hear, not gripe about how ....ed we are.

We have already proven that we have an advantage over our enemies; we are willing to adapt and change, while they are trying to make everything stay the same, and are themselves staying the same. Let's ....ing use it. Tooth and claw, I will be dragged down swinging and screaming, to spit in the devils eye as he tries to take me.
 

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On the legal front, we have no choice but to stop the attitudes of fatalism that I see a lot of. If you are already waving the white flag this early in the game, roll into your shallow grave and make way for the people who still have a pulse. We lose this game when we say we are done fighting, and not a moment before that. No one tells us when we are done fighting for our rights but us, and it's about time some people remembered that.
Quoted for "hell yeah!"
 

DC2

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Glorious victory, or glorious death, but glory none the less. I say let's get some thinking sessions going and bury these FDA .......s.
When the FDA proposes their regulations, all hell is going to break loose.
Even the meek will stand up and be heard.

It will be the culmination of everything that has happened before.
And it will be the time when we find out if there is anything left to the American Dream.

Yes, I know that all sounds a bit corny, but just wait and see.
It is going to be epic.
 

Insignificance

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Gotta love the part about how any regulations would be "appropriate for the protection of the public health." I'll be waiting for the FDA, which has been given regulatory authority over tobacco products, to tell big tobacco that the ride is over and they have to figure out how to remove every trace of carcinogens out of cigarettes and cigars.

Meanwhile, can you imagine if just one person showed up in an emergency room with liver failure due to use of e-cigs? All heck would break loose. Well, check out this article about dietary aids and how they are leading to an increase in liver damage and other maladies -

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/22/us/spike-in-harm-to-liver-is-tied-to-dietary-aids.html?_r=0

When I first found this site I dismissed the idea that big pharma and big tobacco pull the FDA's strings. Boy, was I naive.
 

Don Robertson

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"This deeming rule is necessary to provide FDA with authority to regulate these products (e.g., registration, product and ingredient listing, user fees for certain products,(READ AS, "TAXES" AND REVENUE FOR THE GOVERNMENT) premarket requirements, and adulteration and misbranding provisions). In addition, the additional restrictions that FDA seeks to promulgate for the proposed deemed products would reduce initiation and increase cessation (particularly among youth). This rule is consistent with other approaches that the Agency has taken to address the tobacco epidemic (EVEN THOUGH they claim FEWER PEOPLE SMOKE TODAY than at any time in history?) and is particularly necessary given that consumer use may be gravitating to the proposed deemed products.

WHo could possibly want a "cut" of this MULTIPLE BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY??

Senile Old Man Don knows a TAX when he sees one being "proposed"! It's always veiled as being about "THE CHILLUN'! Hogwash!
 

Don Robertson

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How much city, state and federal TAX REVENUE is generated by these "NON FDA APPROVED OR REGULATED" vitamins / dietary supplements? BILLIONS of bucks flow into the General Funds at ALL levels. They have NO desire or incentive to further regulate these items; they would give up too much TAX REVENUE!

Senile Old Man Don ..... perhaps not so senile after all!

Gotta love the part about how any regulations would be "appropriate for the protection of the public health." I'll be waiting for the FDA, which has been given regulatory authority over tobacco products, to tell big tobacco that the ride is over and they have to figure out how to remove every trace of carcinogens out of cigarettes and cigars.

Meanwhile, can you imagine if just one person showed up in an emergency room with liver failure due to use of e-cigs? All heck would break loose. Well, check out this article about dietary aids and how they are leading to an increase in liver damage and other maladies -

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/22/us/spike-in-harm-to-liver-is-tied-to-dietary-aids.html?_r=0

When I first found this site I dismissed the idea that big pharma and big tobacco pull the FDA's strings. Boy, was I naive.
 
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