Once Saved, Always Saved? NO.

[Southern Gent]

OK, so Jesus is my savior, I am as remorsefull of my sins as I can be. Is that enough? If not, someone please explain what the heck I'm doing wrong. Because as far as I can tell there isn't anything else I can do.

If some sins are unforgivable am I going to hell? I have taken the life of more than one person. Yes it was war but they were innocent.

I knew at the time that they were right in defending themselves and that I was wrong to be in their country. I also knew that I could be killed and never get home to my wife and child if I didn't kill them first.

So, honestly am I damned or what?

Nope...not damned. Why? Because Jesus is your Savior and you are remorseful of your actions. You lay these things at His feet and let Him deal with it. Does this mean you won't sin against the Father again? No. Might you even go back and do things that you know are wrong from your former life? Yes..this is called backsliding...if you "come back to the Father". Apostasy is when one does not come back. I said in the beginning of this thread that apostasy takes some doing. It takes a willful hardening of the heart done by the individual through willful neglect of their God relation. Apostasy and backsliding are two different animals. The church has taught backsliding as the same or equal to backsliding. This is not a Bible truth. The church has then gone the other way to say apostasy is not possible because the person was never saved from the beginning. This is also not a Bible truth. One who goes back into the world and returns to God=Backslider
One who goes back into the world and never returns to God=Apostate

The only sin that is not forgiveable are the ones we won't own up to. War is authorized in the Bible. Many of God's own were warriors. Murder is condemned...killing not necessarily so. Innocent is a rather relative term in war. As long as Jesus is your Savior, why would you have worry? It's when we reject or walk away from His salvation that we find ourselves with issue.

 

[LisaLisa]

OK, so Jesus is my savior, I am as remorsefull of my sins as I can be. Is that enough?

Yes, I believe it is enough because your heart condition is in the right place.

But, let's say for argument's sake that next year, you started turning away from God and started living a life that was full of evil things.......cheating on your wife, abusing your kids, hanging out in strip bars and sleeping with prostitutes.....drinking constantly.....stuff like that. And you then decided that there was no God or that you didn't know anymore and didn't even care.

Let's face it, this happens to alot of Christians. They change their mind and go back to the lifestyle that many had before they became a christian. Some even go so far as to denounce God all together by becoming an atheist.

Now, is that person saved? At one time they were, but are they now? They took the gift of salvation that Jesus gave them, and they accepted, and then threw it back in His face...................so what do you think?

I personally know 2 of these people. One is my best friend and the other is my father. I would like to believe that they are saved, I love these 2 people, but I can't say that I believe they are because at this point, they are worse then an unbeliever. They know better, they had the gift of salvation and threw it away and as a result, they have settled into a life full of evil deeds and one even curses God saying the most terrible things. I've almost cut off my contact with her completely because it upsets me that much.

So, when Jesus comes, will He recognize either of these people as one of His beloved faithful followers? Let's be honest and not candy coat it.............I don't think He will......because they are clearly not following Him now and they have not been faithful to Him either.

My father just ignores God, but my friend has taken up the cause to get as many people as she can to turn away God, and she laughs and jokes about it. From my perspective, she has decided to be God's enemy and she is proud of it.

Now, maybe Jesus will look into their hearts and see some redeeming quality, maybe He will have mercy on them for His own reason. It's not up to any of us humans to tell Him what to do, or to question His righteous decisions. But, going by the Bible, I don't see how either of these 2 people are saved if they were to die today. Sad, but true in my opinion.

 

[Southern Gent]

Yes, I believe it is enough because your heart condition is in the right place.

But, let's say for argument's sake that next year, you started turning away from God and started living a life that was full of evil things.......cheating on your wife, abusing your kids, hanging out in strip bars and sleeping with prostitutes.....drinking constantly.....stuff like that. And you then decided that there was no God or that you didn't know anymore and didn't even care.

Let's face it, this happens to alot of Christians. They change their mind and go back to the lifestyle that many had before they became a christian. Some even go so far as to denounce God all together by becoming an atheist.

Now, is that person saved? At one time they were, but are they now? They took the gift of salvation that Jesus gave them, and they accepted, and then threw it back in His face...................so what do you think?

I personally know 2 of these people. One is my best friend and the other is my father. I would like to believe that they are saved, I love these 2 people, but I can't say that I believe they are because at this point, they are worse then an unbeliever. They know better, they had the gift of salvation and threw it away and as a result, they have settled into a life full of evil deeds and one even curses God saying the most terrible things. I've almost cut off my contact with her completely because it upsets me that much.

So, when Jesus comes, will He recognize either of these people as one of His beloved faithful followers? Let's be honest and not candy coat it.............I don't think He will......because they are clearly not following Him now and they have not been faithful to Him either.

My father just ignores God, but my friend has taken up the cause to get as many people as she can to turn away God, and she laughs and jokes about it. From my perspective, she has decided to be God's enemy and she is proud of it.

Now, maybe Jesus will look into their hearts and see some redeeming quality, maybe He will have mercy on them for His own reason. It's not up to any of us humans to tell Him what to do, or to question His righteous decisions. But, going by the Bible, I don't see how either of these 2 people are saved if they were to die today. Sad, but true in my opinion.

Excellent post Lisa. Unfortunately I have to deal with this every day. Trying to get people to wear the armor of God is a chore sometimes.

 

[LisaLisa]

Excellent post Lisa. Unfortunately I have to deal with this every day. Trying to get people to wear the armor of God is a chore sometimes.

I bet! I know I couldn't do it, the frustration would drive me nuts. Thank God for you and others like you that can do it!

 

[Saintscruiser]

Of course a relationship is 2 sided, but is not a requirement for salvation.

Who is it that will NOT be in heaven? Those who don't have a relationship? Sounds like a condition of salvation to me.

People who never get SAVED, aren't in Heaven. They will fool people, but not God. You mis-read what I wrote. What I said was that there are people who 'act' saved, but aren't. People will believe that the chameleons are saved, but God sees their heart.

 

[Southern Gent]

People who never get SAVED, aren't in Heaven. They will fool people, but not God. You mis-read what I wrote. What I said was that there are people who 'act' saved, but aren't. People will believe that the chameleons are saved, but God sees their heart.

Doesn't matter what you said, what you meant or how you said it.....I'm looking for cornflict!!!
It's the only way to keep any excitement in here.

 

[LisaLisa]

Doesn't matter what you said, what you meant or how you said it.....I'm looking for cornflict!!!
It's the only way to keep any excitement in here.

LOL..........I AGREE! No, I disagree 100%!

 

[Jason_in_nc]

Then what of the story of the Prodigal son?

The Son takes all the inheritance (blessings bestowed upon him for being the son of his father) and LEAVES. He leaves (falls away from his father) to live a life of sin. Does everything that is contrary to the will of his father. At the end of his time in sin, he realizes it gained him nothing and left him desolate. He then returned to his father, who received him with open arms and celebrated his return. He was not rejected because he WILLFULLY turned against the will of his father.

A good discussion of Hebrews 6
http://defendingcontending.com/2010/07/23/what-exactly-does-hebrews-64-6-mean-anyway/

EDIT:
Just read your post at the top of the page SG, I read it too fast the first time. Apologies.

See, that is where I think you and I differ. From what I see, if one is truly saved, they never turn away for good. If they turn away for good, they were never truly saved.

One thing I think we can agree on. Sin is not a thing to be taken lightly for a Christian. Doctrine is not something to be taken lightly by a Christian. We must seek the face of God, and study to discern the truth. As long as we do those things, as long as we are focused on Christ and his truth, how can we ever go wrong!

 

[Saintscruiser]

Then what of the story of the Prodigal son?

The Son takes all the inheritance (blessings bestowed upon him for being the son of his father) and LEAVES. He leaves (falls away from his father) to live a life of sin. Does everything that is contrary to the will of his father. At the end of his time in sin, he realizes it gained him nothing and left him desolate. He then returned to his father, who received him with open arms and celebrated his return. He was not rejected because he WILLFULLY turned against the will of his father.

A good discussion of Hebrews 6
What exactly DOES Hebrews 6:4-6 mean, anyway? « Defending. Contending.

EDIT:
Just read your post at the top of the page SG, I read it too fast the first time. Apologies.

See, that is where I think you and I differ. From what I see, if one is truly saved, they never turn away for good. If they turn away for good, they were never truly saved.

One thing I think we can agree on. Sin is not a thing to be taken lightly for a Christian. Doctrine is not something to be taken lightly by a Christian. We must seek the face of God, and study to discern the truth. As long as we do those things, as long as we are focused on Christ and his truth, how can we ever go wrong!

Jason, you and I agree on this, and it goes back to the parable of the seeds landing on different soils and depths. If someone gets saved, they will not give up what is found. They might fall away from what they know and get in trouble.....but they never stray too far away that God can't find them and help restore them. If they do not want to be restored, they weren't saved in the first place.

 

[Southern Gent]

Jason, you and I agree on this, and it goes back to the parable of the seeds landing on different soils and depths. If someone gets saved, they will not give up what is found. They might fall away from what they know and get in trouble.....but they never stray too far away that God can't find them and help restore them. If they do not want to be restored, they weren't saved in the first place.

At what point does one know if they are saved or not?

 

[Saintscruiser]

At what point does one know if they are saved or not?

It's when the head knowledge becomes heart knowledge.There is a major difference. I always knew who Jesus was, but never invited Him into my heart to give my life to Him and His service. August 1985. My life changed....completely changed. I wanted to truly know who my Savior is. From then until this moment, I know and have known that I am blood bought, born again Christian and I'm Heaven bound! I know that I know that I know.....you know? I got saved that day. How will people know? Because their life changes! My parents knew immediately. My son stated I'd planted a whole new tree. Thats how I know. I have a burning desire to do God's work. AND, if someone wants more proof, I'm being persecuted by satan constantly........if I weren't saved, he'd leave me alone, because I would already be his.....that nasty twirp! He will get what is coming to him and I'm looking forward to it.

 

[blondeambition3]

It's when the head knowledge becomes heart knowledge.There is a major difference. I always knew who Jesus was, but never invited Him into my heart to give my life to Him and His service. August 1985. My life changed....completely changed. I wanted to truly know who my Savior is. From then until this moment, I know and have known that I am blood bought, born again Christian and I'm Heaven bound! I know that I know that I know.....you know? I got saved that day. How will people know? Because their life changes! My parents knew immediately. My son stated I'd planted a whole new tree. Thats how I know. I have a burning desire to do God's work. AND, if someone wants more proof, I'm being persecuted by satan constantly........if I weren't saved, he'd leave me alone, because I would already be his.....that nasty twirp! He will get what is coming to him and I'm looking forward to it.

I have to AGREE with this!

 

[LisaLisa]

It's when the head knowledge becomes heart knowledge.There is a major difference. I always knew who Jesus was, but never invited Him into my heart to give my life to Him and His service. August 1985. My life changed....completely changed. I wanted to truly know who my Savior is. From then until this moment, I know and have known that I am blood bought, born again Christian and I'm Heaven bound! I know that I know that I know.....you know? I got saved that day. How will people know? Because their life changes! My parents knew immediately. My son stated I'd planted a whole new tree. Thats how I know. I have a burning desire to do God's work. AND, if someone wants more proof, I'm being persecuted by satan constantly........if I weren't saved, he'd leave me alone, because I would already be his.....that nasty twirp! He will get what is coming to him and I'm looking forward to it.

You're so right, He really does change you from the inside when you invite Him into your life and you seek to do His will.

 

[Southern Gent]

Scripture please to confirm this head & heart knowledge.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do? .
Doesn't seem to be a Biblical doctrine

 

[Saintscruiser]

Well, the best I can do is this......Saul knew who Jesus was and had a vast deal of information in his head about Him. Then, BAM, he met Jesus on the road to Damascus, and he became Paul. That was me.....I had a 'road to Damascus' experience. No, I didn't go blind....but the scales fell from my eyes and I could see! Scripture became real! Jesus became the focus of my being. I can't get much plainer than that. Communication happened. I could hear the Master.....not the enemy. I tested the spirits. It wasn't long afterwards that I knew time was short. Jesus would be coming sooner than anyone realized.

 

[Jason_in_nc]

Is it James? Satan believes in God... he's seen him face-to-face... but has no love or faith for him in his heart.

Even though we may be sure of our salvation, I think every Christian goes through a time in their lives where God "hides his face" from them. Every great person of God that I have known has had one of these periods of time, usually in the midst of trials, so I think it will happen to each of us who know Christ. I am going through one now and have been for several years. It' agonizing. I have gotten sooo angry at God and have said things to and about him that I already regret.

But no matter how angry I get, no matter how much I want to give up.. I always come back. I simply seem unable to leave him. There have been times when I've been so angry at God that I hadn't spoken to him in weeks yet, I'll come on here and see a negative claim about God and something rises within me that angers me so that I must defend him.

I'm wondering if the purpose of what I call these "job moments" is to get us to the point where we can be like job. Accepting of our circumstances and stalwart in our faith in spite of a lack of the clear presence of God. I am not yet at that point. Anyway, I'm getting side-tracked.

For me, my assurance comes from the fact that I can't leave. He bought me, he owns me... doesn't matter whether or not I feel saved at the moment, I can't seem to leave anymore than the fish in my aquarium. I don't want to leave, I just want to know what's going on. Again, getting side-tracked.

The Bible though is clear in many places, that each person must examine their lives to make sure what they are calling "salvation" is true. Does their life show the fruits of the spirit? Have they witnessed to others? Have they changed?

My former pastor used to give this criteria for examining your salvation.
1) Has your life changed? Has how you live changed?
2)Do you pray?
3)Do you enjoy being around other Christians?
4)Do you enjoy God's word and the things of God?
5)Do you talk about God and what has happened to you to others?
6)Ask yourself why you are saved.

 

[blondeambition3]

Scripture please to confirm this head & heart knowledge.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do? .
Doesn't seem to be a Biblical doctrine

Here's three:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners. Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Romans 10:9)

We must 'confess' (here's your head knowledge) and then 'believe in our hearts' (here's your heart knowledge) both confirmed by the Word..... scripturally based... scripturally sound SG

Oh! mustn't forget my FAVORITE scripture!

For I am persuaded, (head AND heart knowledge) that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-3

Our heads AND hearts can be wrong... Salvation can not be based on 'our' knowledge, but God's word. Faith is our means of receiving this. Relationship binds us to the truth in Him. In THIS we can be confident and we can 'boldly approach the throne of Grace and call Him Abba (Father)'

 

[blondeambition3]

Is it James? Satan believes in God... he's seen him face-to-face... but has no love or faith for him in his heart.

Even though we may be sure of our salvation, I think every Christian goes through a time in their lives where God "hides his face" from them. Every great person of God that I have known has had one of these periods of time, usually in the midst of trials. I am going through one now and have been for several years. It' agonizing. I have gotten sooo angry at God and have said things to and about him that I already regret.

But no matter how angry I get, no matter how much I want to give up.. I always come back. I simply seem unable to leave him. There have been times when I've been so angry at God that I hadn't spoken to him in weeks yet, I'll come on here and see a negative claim about God and something rises within me that angers me so that I must defend him.

I'm wondering if the purpose of what I call these "job moments" is to get us to the point where we can be like job. Accepting of our circumstances and stalwart in our faith in spite of a lack of the clear presence of God. I am not yet at that point. Anyway, I'm getting side-tracked.

For me, my assurance comes from the fact that I can't leave. He bought me, he owns me... doesn't matter whether or not I feel saved at the moment, I can't seem to leave anymore than the fish in my aquarium. I don't want to leave, I just want to know what's going on. Again, getting side-tracked.

The Bible though is clear in many places, that each person must examine their lives to make sure what they are calling "salvation" is true. Does their life show the fruits of the spirit? Have they witnessed to others? Have they changed?

My former pastor used to give this criteria for examining your salvation.
1) Has your life changed? Has how you live changed?
2)Do you pray?
3)Do you enjoy being around other Christians?
4)Do you enjoy God's word and the things of God?
5)Do you talk about God and what has happened to you to others?
6)Ask yourself why you are saved.

Been there Jason... thanks for articulating some of my exact same thoughts & feelings

 

[Southern Gent]

Here's three:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners. Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Romans 10:9)

We must 'confess' (here's your head knowledge) and then 'believe in our hearts' (here's your heart knowledge) both confirmed by the Word..... scripturally based... scripturally sound SG

You must confess and believe AT CONVERSION. This means at that very moment you are saved. Not later on down the road. Now to say that if you followed Christ for 15 years and turned away that you NEVER were saved? The Bible says no such thing.

 

[blondeambition3]

You must confess and believe AT CONVERSION. This means at that very moment you are saved. Not later on down the road. Now to say that if you followed Christ for 15 years and turned away that you NEVER were saved? The Bible says no such thing.

That I don't know about.... can't understand 'why' someone would do that...