Once Saved, Always Saved? NO.

[Southern Gent]

cause he made us. He understands us better than we understand ourselves. Did he not understand our frailties before christ?

For him to have been capable of yielding to temptation he would have to be capable of sin. To be capable of sin, he would have to have a sin nature. If he had a sin nature, he could not die in our stead.

Now if we're talking about him knowing what hunger, thirst, fatigue, lonliness...etc is like, then yes I agree with that. But I want us to be careful when we speak of Christ being tempted and yielding to temptation because many people associate that with the possibility of Christ committing sin. I see Christ committing sin as an impossibility.

Is that not the entire point of being the Christ? He was tempted in all things and yet He did not sin? This is the problem of the doctrine of inherited sin and where the argument falls apart. If Mary had inherited sin...Jesus being born of Mary would have inherited sin as well.

 

[blondeambition3]

Don't know what it was. He said that after all his years of study he has come to the conclusion that the Bible is mythology and he was bitter that he had in his words..."wasted his entire life for bull....". His wasn't for show. He had devoted his entire life to the cause of Christ. I have to disagree with you here. One who totally denounces God puts their salvation in grave jeopardy. If we adhere to scripture--It would have indeed been better for him to have never known. His wife asked me where he was...I said he was in the hands of a merciful God.

I'd say that was a wise answer SG...

 

[Jason_in_nc]

Is that not the entire point of being the Christ? He was tempted in all things and yet He did not sin? This is the problem of the doctrine of inherited sin and where the argument falls apart. If Mary had inherited sin...Jesus being born of Mary would have inherited sin as well.

Well, the Bible seems pretty clear that sin is inherited. The natural state of man is sin.

But the question is WHY did he not sin? Because he was God and could not sin.

As I have always understood, the sin nature was passed through men, which is why he had a virgin birth. But I don't remember if that is specifically stated in scripture.

 

[Southern Gent]

Well, the Bible seems pretty clear that sin is inherited. The natural state of man is sin.

But the question is WHY did he not sin? Because he was God and could not sin.

As I have always understood, the sin nature was passed through men, which is why he had a virgin birth. But I don't remember if that is specifically stated in scripture.

Show me that sin is inherited. When the apostles asked Jesus concerning a man who was lame, they asked, who sinned? He or his parents? Jesus said "?".
Do you believe that newborn babies are condemned to hell if they die? Only if they are male? It's not stated in scripture Jason because it is a man made doctrine. Jesus according to the Bible is our brother. He is the "firstborn" of many. If He was born above sin and reproach then He has absolutely nothing in common with us and if He was born above sin and reproach then He has not set a goal/example of attainment for us either.

 

[Jason_in_nc]

Psalm 51:5 (King James Version)
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ephesians 2:3 (King James Version)
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Genesis 8:21
21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done

.

To name a few.


The point was not that the lame man was a sinless individual. The point was that his physical condition was not a result of any particular sin in his life.

The understanding about children/infants is that to overcome our sin nature, we must have the knowledge to respond to the gospel/light of Christ. Until a person is old enough to actually comprehend a need for salvation and the gospel message, god does not hold them to account. Scripture provides evidence that infants and young children are forgiven.

Christ most CERTAINLY set an example that we cannot attain. That is true, in and of ourselves. If men could do what Christ did, then men would not need Christ.

I can tell you that his virgin birth means he is very unlike me. Raising the dead means that he is very unlike me. That is how he can save me. He is better than me... he is not like me... he is the creator and I am but a creation who has been lovingly lifted to be one day conformed to his likeness.

If you say Christ can sin, then you are saying that God can sin... no?

 

[LisaLisa]

Jesus conquered it, He said as He was dying, "It is finished". He couldn't have conquered it if He wasn't capable of it in the first place.

Jesus was God in the flesh. The bible says we were made in His image. Jesus had free will, so do we. He choose not to sin, but He could have, or else satan would not have tempted Him.

 

[Jason_in_nc]

Can God sin?

Jesus was tempted as we are in that temptations were put before him. Yet, he was FULLY God. Sin, is anything that is contrary to the will of God.

Jesus IS God.

Could/Can God sin?

 

[LisaLisa]

Can God sin?

Jesus was tempted as we are in that temptations were put before him. Yet, he was FULLY God. Sin, is anything that is contrary to the will of God.

Jesus IS God.

Could/Can God sin?

I believe He could have while He was in human form if He had chose to.

 

[Southern Gent]

.

To name a few.


The point was not that the lame man was a sinless individual. The point was that his physical condition was not a result of any particular sin in his life.

The understanding about children/infants is that to overcome our sin nature, we must have the knowledge to respond to the gospel/light of Christ. Until a person is old enough to actually comprehend a need for salvation and the gospel message, god does not hold them to account. Scripture provides evidence that infants and young children are forgiven.

Christ most CERTAINLY set an example that we cannot attain. That is true, in and of ourselves. If men could do what Christ did, then men would not need Christ.

I can tell you that his virgin birth means he is very unlike me. Raising the dead means that he is very unlike me. That is how he can save me. He is better than me... he is not like me... he is the creator and I am but a creation who has been lovingly lifted to be one day conformed to his likeness.

If you say Christ can sin, then you are saying that God can sin... no?

You need to do a bit more studying on this one. Let's take the Ephesians passage you mention:
In Ephesians 2:1-3, Paul wrote:
"And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; among whom we also once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."

Here, the apostle describes unregenerate people as being "by nature children of wrath." You appeal to this verse for support of the doctrine of hereditary total depravity. You feel the passage is affirming that humans are "by birth children of wrath."

The assertion is absolutely false. There are several interesting observations that can be made in connection with Ephesians 2:1ff.
First, note that in verse 1 the apostle plainly declares that spiritual death is the consequence of "your trespasses and sins" (ASV). Note that your. This emphasizes personal sin. We are not spiritually dead as a result of Adam's transgression. Though the term "your" is not found in the King James Version (following the Textus Receptus), it is amply supported by evidence from ancient Greek manuscripts, early versions, and the writings of the "church fathers" in the post-apostolic period (cf. Expositor's Greek Testament, Vol. 3, p. 283).

Second, in verse 3 Paul affirms that all of us "were...children of wrath." The verb emetha ("were") is an imperfect tense form. The imperfect tense describes continuity of action as viewed in the past. Thus, here it depicts the habitual style of life which had characterized these saints prior to their conversion. Had the apostle intended to convey the notion of inherited sinfulness at the time of their birth, he easily could have expressed that idea by saying, "you became by birth children of wrath."

Third, it is also significant that the verb is in the middle voice in the Greek Testament. The middle voice is employed to suggest the subject's personal involvement in the action of the verb. The language therefore stresses that the sinful condition of the Ephesians had been their individual responsibility. Hence, combining the imperfect tense and middle voice aspects of the verb, we might paraphrase the passage thusly: “...you kept on making yourselves children of wrath."

It is probable that the King James Version, and most subsequent translations, reflect a Calvinistic bias in the rendition, "by nature children of wrath." The Greek word phusei, rendered "nature" in our common versions, can denote "a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature" (Thayer, Greek Lexicon, p. 660). Edward Robinson observed that the term can be understood of a "native mode of thinking, feeling, acting" on the part of those who are "unenlightened by the influence of divine truth" (Greek Lexicon, p. 771). Clearly, these people, by habitual practice, had become worthy of divine wrath.

Fourth, it is worthy of note that if this passage teaches that babies are born totally depraved, one would have to necessarily infer that infants who die in that condition are lost since they are clearly designated as "children of wrath" (cf. the expression "son of perdition"- John 17:12). Yet, this is a conclusion that even denominationalists are loath to accept.

The Bible does not teach the doctrine of inherited depravity. The dogma is strictly of human origin. And it is a serious tragedy that those who profess to be friends of the scriptures will teach this error, thereby subjecting the Christian system to unjustified criticism. Ephesians 2:3 does not teach inherited depravity.

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
All translations have to be explained so that one does not think David is supporting the false doctrine of inherited sin or original sin. These are the words of a man in dark despair. He is saying as we would say, "I have never been any good, even when I was born." Does he mean this literally? No, but this a good demonstration of poetic expression and overstating the case for emphasis. For example, contrast this verse with Psalm 22:9-10. That Psalm and this one are in direct contrast to one another. We need to understand that both Psalms reflect different moods David was in. In Psalm 22 David was feeling good and confident in his relationship with God. In Psalm 51 David is feeling depressed and is not confident in his relationship with God. It is imperative for the student of the Psalms to understand the type of literature this is. The wisdom literature should be understood as poetic literature in contrast to doctrinal treatises like Romans or Hebrews.
Concerning the doctrine of original sin, there are several passages that demonstrate the error of this doctrine:
Ezek 18:20 - every individual is responsible only for his/her sin;
1 Tim 2:4 - how could God desire all men to be saved when He has given them the burden of sin frombirth?
Mt 19:14 - would Jesus have said this about children if they inherited sin?
Ex 32:33 - only the one who sins will be blotted out.


The understanding about children/infants is that to overcome our sin nature, we must have the knowledge to respond to the gospel/light of Christ. Until a person is old enough to actually comprehend a need for salvation and the gospel message, god does not hold them to account. Scripture provides evidence that infants and young children are forgiven.

I would like to see a scripture that teaches there is "an age of accountability".

 

[Southern Gent]

I believe He could have while He was in human form if He had chose to.

If He (Jesus) could not have sinned, what was the purpose of Satan's temptation? Of course He could sin and Satan tried to get Him to bite......but even famished, tired and weak He refused. If Jesus could not have sinned this whole portion of scripture is garbage and a waste of time reading. What's the lesson for me to learn? Be Christlike, resist the devil and he will flee? Don't tell me to emulate someone who can't possibly sin....

 

[Jason_in_nc]

Christ did what we could not do. He showed us that he is not what we are.

Saying the passages about his temptations could be garbage is like asking why God requires us to pray when he knows our thoughts and needs. Are all the verses telling us to pray and petition garbage?

I think you mis-understand. We have a sin nature, that is why we live lives of sin. We are sinners by our actions, we are judged by our actions as sinners, but we make those choices... choose those sinful actions because we are sinners. This is why men love darkness rather than light.

Nothing you have provided undermines this understanding. We are not judged by Adam's sin, but we commit sins because we are children of Adam. When we become children of the second Adam (Christ) we are freed from sin.

By your line of thought, someone could potentially live a life devoid of sin and have no need for a savior.

BUT, we all DO have a need for a savior. Why? Because ALL HAVE SINNED. Why? Because we are all sinners by nature and we all make sinful choices in our lives. By one man (Adam) sin came into the world...

 

[Southern Gent]

We are sinners by our actions, we are judged by our actions as sinners, but we make those choices... choose those sinful actions because we are sinners. This is why men love darkness rather than light.

Precisely. Sinners by action and choice....not by birth.

Nothing you have provided undermines this understanding
Except for the fact that the scriptures don't say anything that you have interpreted them to say.

 

[blondeambition3]

We are not judged by Adam's sin, but we commit sins because we are children of Adam. When we become children of the second Adam (Christ) we are freed from sin.

You're preachin' me happy here! Hallelujah!!!! banana:

 

[Jason_in_nc]

Precisely. Sinners by action and choice....not by birth.

Wolves are predators by birth, but they don't start killing as soon as they're born. The evidence of their predatory nature takes some time to become evident. You can see glimmers of it in their play (just as you can in human children who rebel against their parents, are sellfish, etc)

The Bible is clear that people can't help BUT sin.

Again, by your reasoning, man is capable of NOT sinning. Therefore, man is capable of being as Christ, WITHOUT the need for CHRIST. Do you believe that or not?

If not, why? Because all have sinned? Why have all sinned? We're all just so darn unlucky as to make bad choices? Or could we perhaps have a disposition to committing sin as the wolf has for being a predator because like him, it is our nature?

God does not judge us because we have a sin nature, he judges us because we expose our sin nature. We act upon it. Adam's sin is not held to our account, our sins are. BUT, the reason we sin is because we are children of Adam. We have his sinful nature... the "old man".

Likewise, Christ has the nature of his "father"... God. Again, Christ IS God. (by the way, you wouldn't call the relationship of father and son between the two persons of God garbage would you? Because they're not actually father and son as both have always existed... it is like the temptations of Christ.. there was never any actual possibility that he would succumb to them... they were placed before him regardless.. if not men could have said that Jesus didn't have any such temptations as men have... well he did have the same temptations as men, but because he was God, they were of no consequence since he could not sin)

If Christ could sin, then he could not save us. If we are capable of NOT sinning, then we would need no savior.

Christ could raise the dead, we cannot. Christ knew men's hearts, we do not. He could do and knew these things because he was God. We cannot imitate those aspects of his life. Likewise, being God, he was sinless for God cannot sin. Christ was an example of what we could become if we accept him. He proved who he was. He proved that he had the power to conquer what we cannot.

We are all wolves. Predators by birth. It is only through Christ that we are "domesticated" ... stripped of our wild predatory nature and made useful and obedient to God.

 

[Southern Gent]

I'll play:

The Concept of Sin. John said that "sin is the transgression of the law." When one commits sin, he transgress (goes against, crosses) the law (I John 3:4). "All unrighteousness is sin" (I John 5:17). Anything that violates God's righteousness is sin. One who works apart from or against God's will and word is guilty of sin. He performs iniquity; he acts without divine authority (Matthew 7:21-23). Sin is the child of lust (James 1:15). When one is drawn away of his own lust and enticed, lust conceives her offspring, sin, and gives it birth. We are separated and alienated from God "by wicked works" (Colossians 1:21). It is our sins which are produced by the fulfilling of the desires of the flesh and of the mind (Ephesians 2:1-3; Colossians 2:13). This is the New Testament's concept of how one becomes guilty of sin. There is no Scripture which teaches that sin is inherited.

The Concept of Forgiveness. The word of God does not describe the forgiveness of inherited sin. It does not mention forgiveness of the "guilt" of original sin. The New Testament speaks of "your sins" and of "thy sins" (Acts 3:19; 22:16). One is forgiven of his own acts of transgression, iniquity and disobedience. "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more" (Hebrews 8:12). "The body of the sins of the flesh" are put off, cut away, when God forgives (Colossians 2:11-13). As the sins are those one commits, the forgiveness applies to those sins. If as the doctrine of original sin avers, all men are born guilty of Adam's sin, why is the Bible devoid of any reference to the forgiveness of it?

The Concept of the Death of Christ. Christ "was delivered for our offences" (Romans 4:25). "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body" (I Peter 2:24). It was "in the body of his flesh through death" that Jesus reconciled us to God (Colossians 1:21,22). "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). Each individual can consider that Christ died "for me" (Galatians 2:20). Why is that? Because our sins, our guilt, is of our own doing; because forgiveness is of our sins and iniquities (Hebrews 8:12; Isaiah 59:1,2); the death of Christ was for my sin, my guilt, my salvation; hence, "for me." The death of Christ and the shedding of His blood is never said to be for the purpose of removing inherited, original sin. However, if original, Adamic sin is universally pervasive, as the creeds of men allow and allege, should we not expect to find a reference that decrees and declares that the death of Christ removes that sin?

The Concept of Judgment. New Testament judgment scenes vary in many respects, but in this one item they are all constant and consistent -- man is judged by how he has lived, by what he has done. Contemplate and consider the judgment pictures of Matthew (chapters 5-7, 13 and 25). See the awe and dread of Revelation 20:10-15. Hear the admonition and warning of Galatians 6:7-9, Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 3:23. What is the single fact of all these passages? Individuals are judged by their own works. They are rewarded "according to their works." Is there a judgment view of one being condemned on account of what Adam did? Is anyone ever renounced for not ridding himself of the depravity he is supposed to have inherited from Adam? No, but if original sin exists to the extent that men claim, is it not strange that not a single, solitary judgment scene features some creatures lost because of it?

The doctrine of original sin, if true, would be an innate, inherent part of the nature of sin, (which you are claiming) forgiveness, Christ's death and the judgment. Yet, the Bible, in discussing these four themes, never once links it to them. There absolutely could not be such an omission if the doctrine of original, Adamic sin were true. Therefore, these four fundamental facts are fatal to the theory.

"God made men upright but they sought devices" (Ecclesiastes 7:29) (plural can't refer only to Adam). The verse talks about being upright (not totally depraved), but then tells what goes wrong with these upright men. They "sought" many devices. Watch this verse carefully. "This only have I found: God made mankind upright, (not totally depraved and totally unable to do upright things and be upright) but men have gone in search of many schemes." (It was not built into them. They went from an upright state to seeking schemes that were not already built into their totally depraved nature). (Ecclesiastes 7:29, NIV).

If the reason Jesus was sinless was because God did not allow Him to inherit the totally depraved nature that would have totally disabled Him, then why does God hold others responsible and accountable for sin? God made us so that we could not walk upright, and then condemned us for doing what we had absolutely no control over. Why did He not give us the same advantage that you assert that He gave Jesus? This totally perverts justice. Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? It is like sending mentally ......ed folk to eternal fire for being born mentally ......ed.

I bees through with the calvinist doctrine

 

[blondeambition3]

Brethren, this sums it all up (in a tidy & scriptural Nutshell) for me; "context" is key to me also...

Can Christians Lose Their Salvation?

Arriving at a clear understanding of the true nature of salvation represents the first step in settling the question of eternal security. The Bible clearly teaches that at the very moment of genuine repentance and saving faith a sinner is:

· Converted - turned around (Acts 3:19)
· Reconciled - made at peace (2 Cor 5:19)
· Sanctified - set apart for God (1 Cor 1:2)
· Regenerated - given new life (1 Pet 1:23)
· Redeemed - purchased or bought back (1 Pet 1:18)
· Adopted - placed in God’s family as a son (Rom 8:15) and
· Justified - declared righteous by God (Rom 3:28, 2 Cor 5:21).

Furthermore the repentant sinner is sealed with, indwelt by, baptised in and anointed with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13, John 14:17, 1 Cor 12:13, 1 John 2:27). He receives eternal life (John 3:36) and because he is now ‘in Christ’, he is predestined to be conformed to Christ’s image (Rom 8:29). He has come from darkness to light, from death to life and from the power of Satan to God. Once he was blind but now he can see. Truly, he is blessed with all spiritual blessings (Eph 1:3)!

From the very first moment of faith in Christ, all of this is equally true of every single child of God. These are positional truths unrelated to and independent of changing human emotions and feelings. Think for a minute: if Christians can lose their salvation, God is reversing all these actions in the lives of hundreds of people daily.

But what about believers who sin? OH! but What about believers who sin?

Part of the reason why some people deny eternal security is due to their mistaken belief that when they were saved, God only forgave the sins they had committed up to that point in time. They feel they must keep confessing their sins daily to ‘stay saved’. If they commit a particularly bad sin, they will lose their salvation and need to be born again...again. However, the Bible is clear that when God justifies a sinner, He clears his guilt, past, present and future. The sinner is declared righteous on the basis of the propitiatory and substitutionary death of Christ. Think about it; when Christ died on the cross no one now living existed. All their sins were future! So, where are the sins of those who believe in Christ? They have been remitted and forgiven on the basis of their acceptance of the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ at Calvary. Christ gave Himself a ransom for all, and those who believe are justified from all things, from which they could not be justified by the law of Moses (Acts 13:39). God never reverses His justification of repentant sinners!

The daily sins of a believer must be confessed individually to God (1 John 1:9), but this is to maintain communion with Christ, not union with Christ. When God adopts into His family, a child of wrath becomes a son of God (1 John 3:1). Although a son in a human family may disobey his parents and be punished, nothing can change the fact of his sonship. Thus it is with a true child of God; the Lord will not cast him away.

Can Christians live as they like?

This seems a logical question at first sight, but it betrays a further misunderstanding of the nature of salvation. Paul encountered this objection when he expounded the twin truths of imputed righteousness and justification by ‘faith alone’ in Romans ch. 3. He states: ‘‘Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein? ’’ (Rom 6:2). He progresses the argument to explain that justified sinners have died to sin. Once the slaves of sin, they have now changed masters. Salvation never sets a man free to do as his sinful nature pleases. From the first moment, the new-born believer cries out ‘‘Lord, what do You want me to do’’ (Acts 9:5). There are no ‘free agents’ in the world, for all are either slaves of sin or bond-servants of Jesus Christ. When a sinner turns to God from idols, it is with a view to becoming God’s bond-slave (1 Thess 1:9).

True believers who fall into sin will be chastened by their Father (Heb 12:6-11) and disciplined by their local church (1 Cor 5:4-5); but any professing Christians who live in sin and go unpunished, only prove they were never saved in the first place (Heb 12:8) — for ‘‘whoever is born of God does not practise sin’’ (1 John 3:9). Thus, the Bible does not teach that those who profess Christianity but then return to their sinful ways are still ‘guaranteed heaven’. The Bible repeatedly emphasises the fact that “the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Judas exemplifies this truth. That he never lost his salvation is clear from the Lord’s words to the 12 disciples; ‘‘Ye are clean, but not all ’’ (John 13:10). Judas had never been to Christ for cleansing and forgiveness. His actions proved he was an apostate, not a backslider.

But what about all those tricky verses?

Well known evangelical speakers and writers attempt to prove from the Bible that Christians can lose their salvation. What verses do they employ in their teaching? Here are six typical verses:

1. ‘‘If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned’’ (John 15:6).

This verse concerns ‘abiding in Christ’ and refers to believers’ ‘communion’ - not ‘union’ - with Him. Thus the Lord Jesus Himself speaks in v10 of His own abiding in the Father. The figurative language of v6 speaks of one who, through lack of communion with Christ, loses his testimony before men (men gather and burn, not God).

2. ‘‘...you have fallen from grace’’ (Gal 5:4)

While the epistle to the Romans proves that sinners are saved by ‘faith plus nothing’, Galatians proves they stay saved by ‘faith plus nothing’. The irony is that many who would abhor any thought of earning salvation by works, attempt to keep their salvation by works, which theologically amounts to the same thing. One cannot keep by works the gift one received by faith (Rom 6:23). ‘Falling from grace’ in the context of Galatians, refers to those who were trying to keep the law to ‘stay saved’ and had therefore fallen away from the true teaching of salvation through grace. They had lost their understanding of true salvation (unmerited grace), not salvation itself.

3. ‘‘You...has He reconciled.. if you continue in the faith’’ (Col 1:21-23)

Does this verse teach conditional salvation? Not at all. Repeatedly in scripture, ‘if’ simply means ‘since’. One may be asked to turn off a light switch and reply, ‘‘If you say so’’. So here in Colossians, the fact that some continues in the faith furnishes the proof of their salvation; it is not put forth as a condition of salvation.

4. ‘‘For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened...If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance’’ (Heb 6:6)

In checking the context here, it is clear that those mentioned were enlightened but not saved. They tasted but did not drink. They experienced spiritual power but were not personally born again. These Jews had come out of Christ-rejecting Judaism into a knowledge of the truth, yet they had stopped short of actual faith in Christ. With full knowledge of the gospel, they had turned their backs on Christ. The context clearly shows that the author of Hebrews did not have true believers in mind here. Verse 9 states: ‘‘But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation.’’ In other words, no true believer can apostatise. (If this passage taught loss of salvation, the loss would be permanent — no repentance is possible according to v6).

5. ‘‘For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins’’ (Heb 10:26)

If this verse robs all deliberately sinning believers of salvation, then all are lost; for all believers commit deliberate sins. To avoid this particular doctrinal pitfall, it is vital to understand the ‘wilful sin’ in the context of the entire Hebrew epistle. Verse 26 refers to Jews who had come to a head-knowledge of the Messiah and then gone back to ritualistic Christ-rejecting Judaism. Then in v39 the position of true believers is contrasted with these Jewish apostates: ‘‘But we are not of those who draw back unto perdition; but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.’’ True believers may backslide, but they can never become apostate.

6. ‘‘For if after they have escaped...they are again entangled...the latter end is worse with them than the beginning’’ (2 Peter 2:20-22)

Again, this verse is about apostasy not ‘backsliding’. Believers are sheep (1 Pet 5:2), but here Peter is speaking of dogs and pigs (v22). They had a head-knowledge of the truth but had not truly repented. Finally, after an outward association with Christianity, they drifted back to the very depths of worldly pollution from which they had ‘escaped’.

So, each verse that may appear at first glance to teach conditional salvation, can be seen on closer inspection to teach no such thing. There is no space to deal with other verses here, but reference to sound evangelical commentaries will furnish plenty of helpful exposition to clarify any further difficulties.



Now, let's debate (God help me for opening this can of worms!) the following questions;

1) What sin causes loss of salvation?

A theft? A swear word? A lie? Ten lies? 50 lies? INHO no specific uniform answers are available, indicating the unsound foundation on which this error is built.

2) How does loss of salvation become known to an individual?

Again, solid answers are not there, only nebulous suggestions.

3) How is salvation recovered?

If salvation is through believing, how does one ‘believe again’? No one who has had Christ revealed to his soul could ever ‘believe again’. Interestingly, some cults who teach baptismal regeneration and conditional salvation do not insist on rebaptism once a ‘backslider’ has been ‘restored’. In other words, baptism is essential for salvation first time around, but not the second time — repentance is all that is needed!

4) Where in scripture is there an example of a true believer losing his salvation and then being saved again?

There is not a single case of this type anywhere in the Bible. Some have suggested the case of the immoral man in 1 Corinthians ch. 5. However, scripture never indicates he lost his salvation. Once he was disciplined he truly repented, thus proving his genuineness — after which he was received back into the local church at Corinth (2 Cor 2:6-8).

Here now is a list of scriptures to prove the glorious truth of scripture — ‘once in Christ in Christ forever’.

John 5:24: ‘‘Verily, Verily, I say unto you, he that hears My word, and believes on Him who sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but has passed from death unto life.’’ This ‘passage’ is a one way street and carries no threat of reversal.

John 10:27-28: ‘‘My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and [firstly] they shall never perish, [secondly] neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.’’ Some make an attempt to circumvent the clarity of eternal security as taught in this verse by saying that while no other man is able, a Christian can pluck himself out of the Father’s hand! Actually, the word ‘man’ is an italicised supplied word. The verse is simply teaching that no foe or force of any kind can ever sever the true believer from Christ.

Eph 4:30: ‘‘And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.’’ The seal of ownership upon every believer is guaranteed to continue right through to the resurrection and beyond.

Phil 1:6: ‘‘Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.’’ God has promised to see Christians through to the day of Christ’s return.

II Tim 1:12: ‘‘I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.’’ If salvation depended on individuals, each one would have perished long ago. Thank God He is able to keep without losing even one weak believer.

.... see also Heb 5:9, 10:14, 1 Peter 1:3-5, 1 John 5:11-13.

The scriptural motivation for Christian service should not be fear of losing one’s salvation but rather love to Christ. How tragic that some attend church and read their Bibles driven by the fear that if they do not fulfil these duties they will be cast out. May the Lord graciously reveal the truth of eternal security and the believer’s new position in Christ, that bond-service to Him may become the most blessed freedom of all.

In closing (for me at least) God has settled this issue at least with me. I am 'confident' of my salvation based on God's promises (unmerited unwarranted Grace) and Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. His Word is sufficient for me and my relationship with Him will endure forever. While Apostasy exists, it exists only for those who never truly knew Christ to begin with.

I love all of you regardless of your position on this matter and I've heard all of the eloquent & persuasive arguments .. but this is mine completely. For me, 'it was finished for me forever on the Cross'.....

PS - Sorry Guys... I'm not the best at 'color-coding' for emphasis... forgive all the errors

PSS - Why else would it be called 'The Good News of the Gospel' if it weren't truly GOOD NEWS?

 

[Southern Gent]

Obviously, Paul thought that it was possible. “Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 3:12-14). In other letter, Paul wrote, “Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified” (I Corinthians 9:24-27). Paul understood that if he did not give God is all, it was possible to be disqualified from inheriting eternal life.

Paul not only had concerns about retaining his own salvation, he also told us about those who had lost their right to eternal life. Paul told Timothy that “having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme” (I Timothy 1:19-20). Hymenaeus and Alexander were sailing the seas of faith, but they suffered a shipwreck – they had lost their faith. Peter warned that false prophets would arise from among the people of God in II Peter 2. He did not say they would enter from the outside, but that they would come from within the family of God. In II Peter 2:15, Peter states, “They have forsaken the right way and gone astray.” You cannot forsake a path that on which you were never walked. Concerning these people and those they lead astray Peter warns, “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them” (II Peter 2:20-21).

Often people will say about a fallen brother, “Well, he never was really saved in the first place.” Yet, it is clear that a person can know the way of righteousness and escape the pollutions of the world and then become entangled in the world of sin once again. This is why Christians must never let their guard down. “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour” (I Peter 5:8). If a Christian could not become lost, there would be no danger from Satan. But while we remain in this world, we must always strive to serve our Lord. We must not become complacent nor arrogant. “Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall” (I Corinthians 10:12).

 

[blondeambition3]

Obviously, Paul thought that it was possible. “Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus” (Philippians 3:12-14). In other letter, Paul wrote, “Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified” (I Corinthians 9:24-27). Paul understood that if he did not give God is all, it was possible to be disqualified from inheriting eternal life.

Not with uncertainty or as one who beats the air are very 'strong' words with positive conviction .... Paul 'seems' to be contradicting himself here, but I'm sure he isn't... if your interpretations are correct SG then Paul would be sincere, but sincerely 'wrong'... which I believe is the case for many who question their eternal salvation. JMHO
Paul not only had concerns about retaining his own salvation, he also told us about those who had lost their right to eternal life. Paul told Timothy that “having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme” (I Timothy 1:19-20). Hymenaeus and Alexander were sailing the seas of faith, but they suffered a shipwreck – they had lost their faith. Peter warned that false prophets would arise from among the people of God in II Peter 2. He did not say they would enter from the outside, but that they would come from within the family of God. In II Peter 2:15, Peter states, “They have forsaken the right way and gone astray.” You cannot forsake a path that on which you were never walked. Concerning these people and those they lead astray Peter warns, “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them” (II Peter 2:20-21).

Often people will say about a fallen brother, “Well, he never was really saved in the first place.” Yet, it is clear that a person can know the way of righteousness and escape the pollutions of the world and then become entangled in the world of sin once again. This is why Christians must never let their guard down. “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour” (I Peter 5:8). If a Christian could not become lost, there would be no danger from Satan. But while we remain in this world, we must always strive to serve our Lord. We must not become complacent nor arrogant. “Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall” (I Corinthians 10:12).

Again & respectfully SG (I love you Brother.... you ARE indeed a competent Witness for Christ who desires that none lose the prize!).... but! (and I say this humbly... with full belief without wavering), I believe sufficient scripture is available to prove Salvation is certain for the truly "born-again" believer. Scripture must use scripture for proper interpretation. Reference and 'context' of same scripture is always important. We all are aware of this and this is why we rely on the Holy Spirit sometimes.... to help us internalize what we find hard to intellectualize.

In these last days, we've got to concentrate on 'saving' people for the Kingdom... not focus on the lies (wiles) of the Devil or question the eternal salvation God has promised. You, nor I, nor anyone else KNOW the Hearts or intents of any Man so none of us can truly ascertain whether one is truly 'born again' so YEARS of apparent 'service to God' is meaningless. Only GOD is qualified to do that. We 'need' to believe what God clearly said and rely on Holy Spirit revelation for the rest. The Devil isn't going to 'shut up' on these salvation issues and we can't mess around losing time worrying about these things when we have the Gospel to preach and souls to win for the Kingdom... right?

Now tell the Devil to shut up, that GOD is about to finish what He's purposed and begun (in all of us and in the World).

Remember, in the END 'We' Win!

God clearly says;... "They (that's us born-again believers) overcame HIM (Him be the Devil) by the (WHAT?) blood of the Lamb and (What else?) by the words of their testimony" - Rev 12:11

 

[Southern Gent]

I believe sufficient scripture is available to prove Salvation is certain for the truly "born-again" believer. Scripture must use scripture for proper interpretation. Reference and 'context' of same scripture is always important. We all are aware of this and this is why we rely on the Holy Spirit sometimes.... to help us internalize what we find hard to intellectualize.

There is only sufficient evidence "if" the scriptures are used out of context and reference. One can not take a false premise and make a true conclusion based upon the false premise. This does not make for a proper interpretation. Every piece of the article you provided allows for a return to Christ based upon repentance....no one would argue that fact. Later in the article we see this:

6. ‘‘For if after they have escaped...they are again entangled...the latter end is worse with them than the beginning’’ (2 Peter 2:20-22)
Again, this verse is about apostasy not ‘backsliding’.

Admittedly the Bible teaches apostasy. From the very pen of the writer, he says THIS VERSE IS ABOUT APOSTASY.
Then turns around and says it is not possible? Is this really interpretation of scripture that one would trust?
Yes, let us use scripture but let us learn to interpret scripture correctly.

 

[blondeambition3]

I believe sufficient scripture is available to prove Salvation is certain for the truly "born-again" believer. Scripture must use scripture for proper interpretation. Reference and 'context' of same scripture is always important. We all are aware of this and this is why we rely on the Holy Spirit sometimes.... to help us internalize what we find hard to intellectualize.

There is only sufficient evidence "if" the scriptures are used out of context and reference. One can not take a false premise and make a true conclusion based upon the false premise. This does not make for a proper interpretation. Every piece of the article you provided allows for a return to Christ based upon repentance....no one would argue that fact. Later in the article we see this:

6. ‘‘For if after they have escaped...they are again entangled...the latter end is worse with them than the beginning’’ (2 Peter 2:20-22)
Again, this verse is about apostasy not ‘backsliding’.

4. ‘‘For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened...If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance’’ (Heb 6:6)

In checking the context here, it is clear that those mentioned were enlightened but not saved. They tasted but did not drink. They experienced spiritual power but were not personally born again.

..... Apostasy 'is' a certainty... but only with those God deigns were not truly 'born again'.... not for us to ascertain.

Admittedly the Bible teaches apostasy. From the very pen of the writer, he says THIS VERSE IS ABOUT APOSTASY.
Then turns around and says it is not possible? Is this really interpretation of scripture that one would trust?
Yes, let us use scripture but let us learn to interpret scripture correctly.

That's why we study to show ourselves approved, rightly dividing the 'word of truth'.. the truth is 'Christ saves and He saves eternally' those who are SEALED by God". God seals whom He receives and He receives those who 'live by Faith' and stand on His word and by what Christ accomplished on the Cross.

Now, if eternal security is the same thing as assurance, then assurance becomes an impossibility, and the Bible becomes untrue, for we are told that we can have assurance. The only way to extricate ourselves from the outcome of equating these two doctrines is to abandon the false connection, and better yet, eternal security.

The Bible knows of an assurance for Christians, but not an eternal security. I am sure that you are then asking, “if you can lose your salvation, then how can you possibly have assurance?” This is a fair question, and the Scriptures have an answer. We are told that, “if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us form all sin.” 1 John 1:7. If we are walking in the light, we are promised fellowship, and through that fellowship, we have the witness of the Spirit. It never ceases to amaze me that so many people seem to think that walking in the light is such a difficult thing to do. Constantly relying and trusting Jesus for our guidance and as our hope, and walking in that light, is the normal Christian life. We can have that assurance, just as Paul found when he was delivered from his internal struggle with sin, “ who shall deliver me from this body of death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord...” Through this deliverance he went on to say that, “there is therefore now no condemnation for them which are “in” Christ Jesus.” And just 15 verses later he speaks of that witness of the Spirit. Romans 7:24-25, 8:1, 8:16. We have a hope, not just because He has promised it, but because He lives within us and has given us His Spirit to witness and confirm it. This is the true Biblical assurance.

If I error SG, then I error on God's 'strengths' and not my own understanding. Since God judges our Hearts then do you think He may have mercy on a poor fool for Him like me?