Ontario Ministry of Labour called upon for a ruling of unsafe work.

[SoUnique]

That guy seems like an egotistical ..... that is abusing his position. He lost, so now he's starting with the harassment & bullying. If that letter was addressed to me, I would take it as a personal threat. I would also be starting/filing a work place harassment case.

It kinda looks like he's trying to get your back against the wall, to see if you'll take the first swing.

Stay strong & vape hard.

 

[GoatScrote]

I'll see if I can power through everyone's questions in one go.

Laughing it off is probably the safest bet, but when I said I was a bit angry, I really meant a bit. My overall feelings are that this crap has finally come to a head with this guy. Seems like he's grasping at straws here, and now with this threatening and bogus email, he may well have done himself in.

There are cameras in the area I'm accused of this "aggression" or whatever, I also have 3 witnesses. I am under the impression that management is in the process of pulling the tapes, but I'm not 100% sure as of yet. This is the area where probably 80% of the building's cigarette smokers go to have a smoke, and there were at least 3 people out within 10 feet of me at the same time smoking cigarettes. The only reason I go out there is because of the policy this very same complainer worked so hard to push on us. And no, I did not hold my vapour and blow it at him, I didn't even know he was there. And as Happy Jack pointed out, holding in vapour means no vapour comes out, this is indeed a well established fact. I had to go ask the people I was outside with at the time if he was there at any point, because I honestly didn't know for sure.

I have kept all emails in regards to this stuff that has been going on for going on 3 years now, all kept nicely and organized. I had a feeling this crap would resurface...

I have not boned his wife, and I sure hope he wasn't peekin' at the urinal either. An egotistical lunatic stalker is bad enough, I don't know what I'd do if he also wanted to rape me... Like I said, I've never worked with this guy, or even spoken a word to him. I really, honestly, have absolutely no idea what his beef is. I do hear that he enjoys making up BS so he can get paid time off work, maybe it's as simple as that.

I'm probably missing some stuff, but I'm tired in the brain!

The 'Scro

 

[Talyon]

Again sorry to hear your still going through this chit. I just wanted to point out all unions have and work within a constitution, and most have a clause in there about firstly exhausting all union options, grievance procedure then appeal etc etc before u can bring in an outside lawyer to continue for a resolve. So u might want to check your local constitution. Getting a copy of the constitution may be difficult mind you. Hope I have helped in some small way bro.

Talyon - Steelworkers local 260

 

[Kagey K]

I'll see if I can power through everyone's questions in one go.

Laughing it off is probably the safest bet, but when I said I was a bit angry, I really meant a bit. My overall feelings are that this crap has finally come to a head with this guy. Seems like he's grasping at straws here, and now with this threatening and bogus email, he may well have done himself in.

There are cameras in the area I'm accused of this "aggression" or whatever, I also have 3 witnesses. I am under the impression that management is in the process of pulling the tapes, but I'm not 100% sure as of yet. This is the area where probably 80% of the building's cigarette smokers go to have a smoke, and there were at least 3 people out within 10 feet of me at the same time smoking cigarettes. The only reason I go out there is because of the policy this very same complainer worked so hard to push on us. And no, I did not hold my vapour and blow it at him, I didn't even know he was there. And as Happy Jack pointed out, holding in vapour means no vapour comes out, this is indeed a well established fact. I had to go ask the people I was outside with at the time if he was there at any point, because I honestly didn't know for sure.

I have kept all emails in regards to this stuff that has been going on for going on 3 years now, all kept nicely and organized. I had a feeling this crap would resurface...

I have not boned his wife, and I sure hope he wasn't peekin' at the urinal either. An egotistical lunatic stalker is bad enough, I don't know what I'd do if he also wanted to rape me... Like I said, I've never worked with this guy, or even spoken a word to him. I really, honestly, have absolutely no idea what his beef is. I do hear that he enjoys making up BS so he can get paid time off work, maybe it's as simple as that.

I'm probably missing some stuff, but I'm tired in the brain!

The 'Scro

I'm sorry I meant that as a joke, I never seriously thought that. It was meant to be lighthearted, but the excess stress this situation is causing you is very much undue, unneeded, deserved or warranted.

I expected that this situation would sit in limbo until the FDA and subsequently Health Canada made their decisions before this flared up again, but this one guy for whatever reason, seems deathly intent on pushing his agenda for whatever reason. To be honest I'm sure I would react very badly in your situation and so far you seem to have much more self control then I may be able to muster if I was in that situation.

Interested to see where this new twist goes, and again I didn't mean to belittle any aspect of it, I was just trying to have a bit of fun.

 

[GoatScrote]

No worries Kagey K, I figured you were joking, no offense taken and no need to apologize! My sense of humour is a touch on the dark side, if you re-read my reply knowing that, you'll see that I was attempting to join in the jest as well!

The 'Scro

 

[trishdadish]

The idea if compiling all of this into a file, and keeping a diary is very good advice. I laughed when I saw the line about him protecting himself from aggression from you! Its more like you are the victim of aggressive harassment and discrimination. I feel so bad for you guys, you've been through the wringer and these ANTZ wont stop beating this dead horse of an issue. Stress leave anyone?

 

[shades]

FWIW I got your humour but I am way over the line of being offside

No worries Kagey K, I figured you were joking, no offense taken and no need to apologize! My sense of humour is a touch on the dark side, if you re-read my reply knowing that, you'll see that I was attempting to join in the jest as well!

The 'Scro

I have been checking this thread constantly and thank you for sharing all the details of your struggle. God speed my man!

 

[TrashCat]

Vocalek... Thanks so much... Exactly what I've been looking for

Also, this was a Poster Presentation at the 2011 European Society for research on Nicotine and Tobacco (SRNT) conference. It's colorful and easy to understand.

http://clearstream.flavourart.it/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/CSA_Poster.pdf

And this is a link to an article I wrote about the FDA's misleading press conference on the Agency's 2009 testing of e-cigarettes: FDA's partial truths and exaggerations endanger health

 

[GoatScrote]

Just to provide a bit of an update. Well, I guess this is going about as fair as I could have expected from these people. I claimed that this email I'd received, along with everything that's happened regarding this issue, constitutes harassment. Turns out that the Workplace Discrimination and Harassment Policy representative assigned to this case has determined that my claim is not valid, and they're upholding this guy's accusations against me as valid. Now they want me to consent to mediation, which i'm hesitant to do. I fear they'll condemn me without any evidence or doing any research, out of sheer laziness and ignorance. I still have not been able to acquire the security video footage, but I do have witnesses. I'm also told that management is going to send an email out reminding e-cigarette and cigarette smokers that they must legally be 10 meters from the building entrance while smoking. That's right, e-cigarette SMOKERS. Wow, are these people ignorant or what?

The 'Scro

 

[martinc]

Looks like you all are on a crusade.

Mediator (ombudsman) is usually a lawyer (with views on becoming a judge); they are impartial and wont produce a verdict on the same day...in this case,it should take weeks (since these guys usually work fro several companies and are very busy).

It should take weeks because I think they will try to find a way to go with the employer without infringing any rights or laws on your part (plus research);thing is,if you consent,their findings will be law...if you don't,you wont have a chance and they will impose it on you...

 

[Talyon]

If this ....e ever happens at my workplace, I'll simply Vape anyways, I'm very good at not being seen, and my job offers me this approach of scarcity, let them try to catch me.

Sounds like this is coming to an end, and not a good one but some of the battle was won. Next step might be within a years time when HC gets around to whatever it may do.....

 

[Ryedan]

and they're upholding this guy's accusations against me as valid.

The 'Scro

Scro, does 'valid' in this case mean they believe his words are believable, or is there some other meaning of the word in play that I don't get? I'm thinking of the lack of evidence of his accusations and the people who can testify on your behalf that they never saw anything like that take place.

 

[Kagey K]

Just to provide a bit of an update. Well, I guess this is going about as fair as I could have expected from these people. I claimed that this email I'd received, along with everything that's happened regarding this issue, constitutes harassment. Turns out that the Workplace Discrimination and Harassment Policy representative assigned to this case has determined that my claim is not valid, and they're upholding this guy's accusations against me as valid. Now they want me to consent to mediation, which i'm hesitant to do. I fear they'll condemn me without any evidence or doing any research, out of sheer laziness and ignorance. I still have not been able to acquire the security video footage, but I do have witnesses. I'm also told that management is going to send an email out reminding e-cigarette and cigarette smokers that they must legally be 10 meters from the building entrance while smoking. That's right, e-cigarette SMOKERS. Wow, are these people ignorant or what?

The 'Scro

Ouch that is a tough spot.

There are a few ways you could go to get around that wording. I am not an ecig smoker, I am a vapor. Vapor is not smoke.

De-icing fluid to blame for emergency landing, airline says - Ottawa - CBC News

Sunwing publicly stated that there was no health risk, but the flight turned back for precautionary reasons.

If there is no fire, there can be no smoke, therefore you can not be an ecig smoker. I would also direct them in the way of the studies done showing that we exhale nothing toxic, http://clearstream.flavourart.it/site/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/CSA_ItaEng.pdf

And that many people in research universities and big tobacco guys around the world, are looking to make a change in the way e cigarettes (personal vapor devices) are viewed.

Until the FDA and Heath Canada publish complete findings, it is premature for a mediator or anyone else to make an assumption about e cigarettes(personal vapor devices), and it should be left adjourned until all the findings are decided conclusively.

That would be my base argument in your situation, and yes it may mean you having to hang with smokers for a bit, but it's better then just letting them outlaw it. The way they left the wording open, at least lets you prolong it for a bit and the more time that passes the better it is for vapors, I believe. Personally I would leave it open and full of red tape for as long as I can, so more and more evidence in favor of vapor can appear.

But, I don't know what your tolerance is or how much BS you are willing to take. There are some positive news articles coming out about the effects of vaping and it's hard to be a pioneer in anything. I hope you stick to your guns and this ends up as a big win for vapors but for that to happen you have to game the system, the same way that guy is doing it against you. If they make a ruling and HC makes a different one it's too late, the precedent is set for your union.

Just slow play it like a game of chess. Right now the pawns are barely moving and they drew their first bishop out.

 

[Kagey K]

Scro, does 'valid' in this case mean they believe his words are believable, or is there some other meaning of the word in play that I don't get? I'm thinking of the lack of evidence of his accusations and the people who can testify on your behalf that they never saw anything like that take place.

Sorry for the double post, but it seems to me that either this guy has some pull or the managment may perceive vaping as even weaker then smoking. Almost like he was smoking crack or .... on company property.

It looks like it's a case of guilty until proven innocent, since neither one seems to have proof, but his word is much truer then Goats. It's obviously very one sided, but I would love to see Goat hand him his whiny little ... in the end.

 

[martinc]

Nah,normal procedure;

Its the same process has a complaint of harassment (been there,done that,won it too).

They somarily study the file and decide if its worthy of further investigation...guess they did (they always do)...has nothing to do with the possible outcome.

Stay positive;if you have proof and a good file/case,you might just win it against the plantif which I bet only has a "I heard its not good on the net" along with old 2009 HC scriptures (one of your best bet is the new Canadian pulmonary association -is that it- new stance along with the ex-American general surgeon opinion on e-cigs along what you already have)....bring a ton of stuff,contact CASAA and ask for a ton of files!

 

[SloHand]

I can't tell you how unimaginative this complain is against GoatScrote. The day of that incident there were maybe 15 people outside at the back entrance to our building. Only two of us were vaping .... meaning that 13 people were smoking. We were all under the cover of the entrance because it was raining. Here is a picture of that area .....



For this idiot to have walked through to this entrance and not been in the least bit aware that there were 13 smokers BUT just happened to be focused on what GoatScrote was doing is beyond any conceivable logic. I am not one to make idol speculation but this idiot has fabricated (yet again ... see my old blogs) an imaginary event designed to harass and intimidate vapers, pure and simple and that he has found like minded idiots to do his bidding (ie the Workplace Harassment and Discrimination Policy investigator).

GoatScrote and others have piled on the documentation and studies and on and on but they just don't care. They've already made up their minds that we are evil and will pursue us in the same way anti-abortionists pursue their cause, which is the scary part.

I don't mean to bring up the abortion issue as a debate but only to point out that no pro-choice advocate has ever murdered anyone.

 

[martinc]

I totally agree yet,a complaint has been placed and must be processed (well,they could have dropped it after the initial investigation but heh,some human resources ploebe has to earn his salary once in a lifetime!)

Been there,done that!

 

[SloHand]

Hey everyone, it’s been a while, but things in government never move very quickly. Here is a quick recap of what has transpired so far in this ridiculous debacle.

• - June 2011 I started vaping … in my office at my desk.
• - September 2011 a co-worker who sat next to me decided to file a complaint … the result … I was now back to the same rules as smokers
• - October 2011 I am accused of vaping indoors (untrue), charged, letter of reprimand … all this with only one workers ‘word’, no witnesses
• - November 2011 – New “Electronic Smoking Products” directive issued in the workplace effectively lumping vapers in with tobacco cigarette smokers
• - January 2012 a second vaper is accused of vaping indoors (untrue), charged, letter of reprimand … all this with only one workers ‘word’, no witnesses
• - February 2012 – updated “Electronic Smoking Products” directive issued in the workplace effectively lumping vapers in with tobacco cigarette smokers AND banning all juice from the workplace other than the juice in one device.
• - October 2012 - “Electronic Smoking Products” directive sent again to all employees claiming that management has received complaints
• - February 2013 – three ANTZ exercise “refusal of unsafe work” under the OLRB Act. OLRB conducts a field investigation and declares e-cigarettes “Not Likely To Endanger”
• - March 2013 – union representing vaper rejects plea of ‘misrepresentation’ of their issues at work.
• - April 2013 – ANTZ accuse vaper of “blowing smoke in there face” while entering the building (untrue) despite there being ten smokers present who
• - May 2013 – a complaint is filed against GoatScrote under the Workplace Discrimination and Harassment Policy regarding the April 2013 non-incident. A representative of WDHP assigned to this case has determined that GoatScrote is guilty. Mediation is IMPOSED.
• - July 2013 ………

 

[SloHand]

Mediation took place on July 9th. The complainant request that GoatScrote provide a written apology and that no vaping or devices be allowed on any government property. Goat let them know what he thought of that LOL.
Mediation broke down without agreement.

 

[SloHand]

That same day the complainant sends this email to all Directors, Joint Health and Safety Reps and Building Management;

“I finished mediation with GoatScrote and there were some outstanding issues that required further clarification.
In the two policy/directives issued regarding Electronic Smoking Products dated October 26, 2011 and February 27. 2013 the wording is as follows “refrain from using any form of electronic smoking product in the workplace’, and ‘’advised that vaping in the workplace is not permitted’
In accordance with the Health and Safety act pg 7 the word ‘workplace‘ is defined as ‘means any land, premises, location or thing at, upon, in or near which a worker works’
It is clear to me through the definition of the Occupational Health and Safety Act and my recent training to obtain the Joint Health and Safety Committee Member Certification that the workplace includes the parking lot up until the Anglin lot. The JH&SCommittee routinely inspects the parking lot and we recently had a WSIB claim which took place in the parking lot.
Can you please reinforce that the perimeter of your directive as defined includes the entire parking lot surrounding the building.
Vaping should not be happening on any part of the premises.
In our meeting today GoatScrote indicated that vaping is not considered under the smoking laws. Therefore it is not required that you consider any smoking laws/bylaws in regards to the clarification of the policy/directive in place.
Thanks,
Jerk from Hell”

In other words the JFH wants e-cigarettes to be treated differently than tobacco cigarettes and is protecting his union buds that are smokers. Doesn’t want to tick them off too. LOL What a bonehead.