P***d off with "that poor French study" ? Help French vapers demand apologies !

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amunosy

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Sep 14, 2013
10
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France
Hello from France, American vapers !

As you're probably all aware, "60 Millions de Consommateurs", the magazine of France's National Consumers Institute, published a rather controversial study on e-cigs a few weeks ago, and this study was relayed by much of the international press, largely without questioning its findings.

Many leading scientists in France and elsewhere publicly criticized the methodology of the study, the choice of products tested, etc... On the web, a large number of French vapers also questioned the independence of the magazine considering it is published by a state organisation and the study was published - funnily enough - just as the "powers that be" are fighting hard to regulate the e-cig. Others criticized the over-alarming tone of the title and conclusions of the article compared to the relatively uninteresting and dubious findings of the study.

In a "damage control attempt" to avoid further denting of its reputation, the magazine has had no choice but to back-pedal a little, and it has already had to issue two consecutive "disclaimers" aimed at re-assuring both the vapers and the scientists. Unfortunately (for them), the excuses or explanations given so far have been so bad that they only served their critics (it turns out that the e-cigs were tested horizontally, causing "dry vaping" and therefore the genesis of acrolein, for example)... Moreover, as these rectifications were not accompanied by any public apologies, the damage done by the initial study to public perception of the e-cig remains unmitigated.

As I write this, many French vapers as well as the French vapers association (AIDUCE) are busy demanding public explanations from 60 Millions de Consommateurs. In case you feel you guys (and girls !) feel you also suffered somehow from that study in the US (I believe the FDA has "acknolwedged" it), it might be a good time to make the magazine aware of your displeasure with its lack of professionalism. The latest disclaimer was published yesterday at the following address, with space for comments (click on "laisser un commentaire", below, right-hand side of the grey boxed text at the bottom of the main article):
Cigarette électronique : précisions sur notre étude / Articles / Actualités - Le site du magazine 60 millions de Consommateurs

For those of you who can write French, even approximative, please don't hesitate. And for those who don't, no worries: the magazine might know little about e-cigs or vaping, but surely some of its employees will understand enough English to realize their deed has not gone unnoticed abroad...

Of course the final objective is not to p*ss the magazine off or damage its reputation, but to get them to make as much noise about its "mitigating disclaimers" as it has about its damaging original study. So please watch your language...

Thanks !
 

Anjaffm

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Sep 12, 2013
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Hi,
(I think I can post here now... )

This Magazine writes the biggest crap imaginable, insulting not only vapers but anybody with an IQ that is higher than a cucumber's.

Dr Farsalinos has written two great replies:

1.
60 Millions de consommateurs: inventing new laws in mathematics, having no idea about e-cigarettes

2.
Basic science principles 60 Millions de consommateurs should know before making claims

In Europe, the EU is attempting to "regulate" e-cigs as medicines, which will effectively take them off the market.
What a lovely thing for Big Tobacco, Big Pharma - and, last but not least, Big Government (in Germany, the tax on one pack of cigarettes is a whopping 3.65 Euro)

The disinformation and FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) campaigns going on in Germany are also horrible beyond belief.
This is a question of money. BIG money. Our money. - And this makes our health and our lives absolutely irrelevant to those who stretch out their hands to grab our money. We are supposed to pay. Pay until we cannot pay any longer. And then we can die. And not consume our old age pensions.

In Germany, we are fighting.
For our freedom to vape instead of smoking deadly tobacco cigarettes, feeding Big Tobacco and Big Government.
For our freedom to vape instead of consuming costly, useless and even deadly products from Big Pharma.
We are fighting for our lives, as a matter of fact.

Mails are being written to politicians, petitions signed, demonstrations staged. Even songs written on the subject.
The attempt by some in the EU parliament to push through the deadly new Tobacco directive ahead of time was foiled.
Several days ago, a delegation of vapers from Germany went to Brussels (seat of some EU authorities) and presented a petition signed by 27.000 (!) persons.

In Germany, we are in the same boat as you are in France.
We are fighting for our lives, literally.

If you need signatures etc, please let me know, I will post it in the German forum.
We do not speak French well, most of us, but we will gladly support you.

Best regards
Anja

P.S.
I am new to this forum, but not new to vaping. And quite active in my home country. It is MY life, after all.

edit: I commented on that article, in 'English, and posted it in the ERF (German vapers forum).
 
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amunosy

Full Member
Sep 14, 2013
10
4
France
Thanks Anja ! I saw your post on their site, hopefully there will be plenty more Germans commenting there too. Half a dozen Brits already have.
Maybe we should have a contest: whichever nation's vapers post most comments on that website (the French excluded, as they obviously have a hell of a head-start) ! With a bottle of Garlic- or Camembert-flavoured e-liquid as a prize...

Thanks too for explaining the EU situation to the US readers here. Yep, I confirm all that Anja wrote, that's where we're at now in the EU. The French "independent e-cigarette users' association" (AIDUCE: Accueil ) joined its own 35 000 names petition to the German vapers one handed in Brussels, and we're all bracing for the 8th October vote...

Finally, thanks for alerting the ERF readers for me: my German was much too rusty to attempt a translation...
 

Anjaffm

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Sep 12, 2013
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Thank you, dear.
Zillatron is one of the German vapers who wrote a comment on that nasty, lying article.
Zillatron is a great activist, he has written to many MEP's (Members of European Parliament), and he was one of the people who went to Brussels to hand over the 27.000 signature petition.

I am sorry to say that most German people (me included) speak French just a little, if not at all. My 5 years of school French are a little helpful at understanding things... but not all things, by far.

............
Oh, have you noticed how that Magazine is now backpedalling, adding new text, trying (desperately) to come up with excuses?
Like a schoolchild that was caught lying. Pitiful!
Yeah.. some of the "60 million consumers" that they claim to represent do have an IQ that is higher than a cucumber's. Very inconvenient indeed .... *grins*

This stuff was NOT there before:

Pourquoi ne pas avoir comparé la cigarette électronique à la cigarette classique ?
Nous sommes convaincus que la cigarette électronique est moins dangereuse que le tabac, comme nous l’avons écrit dans l’article : « Quand on compare l’e-cigarette à la cigarette conventionnelle, qui tue 73 000 personnes en France chaque année, la balance penche clairement en défaveur de la version conventionnelle. »
Ce postulat apparaît largement argumenté par les études publiées dans les revues scientifiques qui montrent que la cigarette électronique émet globalement moins de polluants que la cigarette de tabac.
Notre choix, clairement expliqué dans notre article, a été justement de sortir de cette comparaison imposée, aux conclusions pré-écrites, et d’évaluer la cigarette électronique en tant que telle. C’était d’autant plus légitime qu’elle est devenue un produit de consommation courante, très largement diffusé mais peu contrôlé, et que nos tests démontrent que certains produits offrent une meilleure sécurité que d’autres pour le consommateur.

We are convinced that e-cigs are less dangerous than tobacco.
etc etc

Interesting indeed.
Got caught with your hands in the cookie jar, eh?
 

Spazmelda

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Are there any translations of the articles and addendum a you can link to. I'd love to write them a letter, but I need to be able to read the article. All I've read about it so far are just summaries, and I can't get a handle on what they actually did, how they tested, etc...

I hadn't heard the update that they tested the ecigs horizontally. That definitely would lead to dry burning.
 

Anjaffm

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Sep 12, 2013
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@Spazmelda:
I hope amunosy can come up with a translation.

BUT - in the meantime, that unspeakable magazine has changed things in the report on their website.
Like that backpedalling "we never said that e-cigs are more dangerous than tobacco cigarettes". Yes they did say that - in the original. And this is what Dr. Farsalinos referred to.

Also, in the original, they never said how they tested. I do not know whether they have amended that. My French is too rudimentary.
All I could grasp is that they said (literally!) that e-cigs are more dangerous than regular tobacco cigarettes. And trying to "confirm" this nonsense with these findings:

For electronic cigarette:
The amount of formaldehyde was between 0.20 and 5.61 micrograms;
The amount of acrolein was between 0.07 and 4.19 micrograms;
The amount of acetaldehyde was between 0.11 and 1.36 microgram.

For tobacco cigarette:
The amount of formaldehyde was between 1.60 and 52 micrograms;
The amount of acrolein was between 2.40 and 62 micrograms;
The amount of acetaldehyde was between 52 and 140 microgram.
source: 60 Millions de consommateurs: inventing new laws in mathematics, having no idea about e-cigarettes
source - original - in French: Cigarette électronique : précisions sur notre étude / Articles / Actualités - Le site du magazine 60 millions de Consommateurs

The original, as-yet-unchanged text then went on to claim clearly that e-cigarettes are more dangerous than tobacco cigarettes.
My memory serves me well. And I can understand enough French to understand that.

This is what prompted Dr. Farsalinos to make this statement:

Is there any rational person out there who, based on these findings, understands that e-cigarette emits more toxic chemicals compared to tobacco?
The French magazine supports that their results indicate that e-cigarettes were more toxic. After thinking about it for few minutes I realized that the only way to support that is to compare the highest value in e-cigarette with the lowest value in tobacco cigarettes. This is not science; this is pure illiteracy in terms of understanding simple mathematical and statistical rules. This is an insult to common sense. No need for further comment.
source: 60 Millions de consommateurs: inventing new laws in mathematics, having no idea about e-cigarettes

In the meantime, the French Magazine has changed the "e-cigs are more dangerous than tobacco cigarettes (period.)" to

Our results, like those of Goniewicz show that the tested electronic cigarettes that emit more formaldehyde and acrolein vapors released into equivalent amounts (and sometimes higher) to those found in the smoke of conventional cigarettes emit less.
(google translation)

= some e-cigs have more than some tobacco cigs

Which is still a bunch of BS. But they are backpedalling furiously, after finding out that "60 million consumers" are not - repeat not - stupid :)

- - This whole nonsense is a great example of the FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) campaigns against e-cigs in Europe. Big Tobacco, Big Government and Big Pharma are furiously trying to keep consumers to pay them their Big Money.
 

NiNi

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I wish I understood French!

Do French papers not allow "Corrections" when they print something that is false? Or is it all back peddling to cover their butts and not anger the organizations that did the "study"?

The analysis alone, that they quote to confirm their "statement" is laughable.....who is really going to consider this a legitimate article? If something was run like this in my local or State distributed newspapers, the comments on their website, calls, email, and faxes would crash the paper's servers and phone systems.

There was an article and clip on our local news about the dangers of e-cig batteries. A men had left his batteries in a charger, on a carpeted floor, up against the wall shared by his bedroom. It ignited. His smoke alarm went off, thwarted "Nature's Survival of the Fittest" once again. He exclaimed he would not vape ever again and that he'd be going back to smoking.........The comments were hilarious! Similar stories about people charging their batteries in an empty car, in the middle of the day down in Phoenix, where the temps are way over 100 degrees F, and the batteries explode and start a fire.........
Ok, are people stuck on stupid? Why are there warnings on devices you purchase? Is it possible that the item you purchase may cause a hazard if not handled properly? "Save the Children" is the big deal, well, it looks like there's some pretty ignorant adults that need saving themselves!

Anyone with a 8th grade education can see that the study quoted was haphazard in it's procedures and blatantly wrong in it's claim that e-cigs were by far, more hazardous than analogs. Where were the "controls"? Did they test the air in the room? Did they isolate the test subjects days before the study so they wouldn't emit chemicals they sucked up on the street, at their place of work?

:facepalm: Are people in France actually believing this article?!?!?!
 

Shopan

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This is exactly what we Need to be doing. Posting any and everything that is out there either for and against our cause...Worldwide! We have to be Unified in this, or we will pay dearly by having more than Common sense Regulations put on us Like in Australia. It does not take Much effort to post on your FB or Start a Blog and/ tweet things out there Folks. Now is not the Time to think that it will be alright, because we have it Great for the Moment, but if we do not DO something today, we will not be able to tomorrow....
 

Anjaffm

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Sep 12, 2013
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@retic1959:
Hm... I may have expressed myself not clearly.... I am most definitely not "concerned" about pissing off that silly stupid lying magazine.
I said they are backpedalling... because they were caught lying. And are now trying to save their reputation. IF they ever had one in the first place. (Which I doubt. At least if any of their other publications were as crappy as this one).

only a full retraction is acceptable IMO.

I agree.

They were caught lying. And all their attempts to claim "we never said that" are just that: attempts to cover up their lies. Lies that were aimed at sowing fear, uncertainty and doubt in the minds of vapers - and in the minds of smokers who are considering switching to vaping. Lies that were aimed at keeping people smoking deadly tobacco cigarettes, instead of choosing a much safer alternative.

To my mind, that is akin to attempted manslaughter. Cigarettes kill.

edit:
good posting, NiNi!

:facepalm: Are people in France actually believing this article?!?!?!

No, they do not :) French people also have brains in their heads. Except those journalists of that magazine, of course ;)

And speaking of emitting chemicals:
the air that is breathed out by a normal, breathing, non-smoking and non-vaping human being contains formaldhyde. That is quite normal, the formaldehyde is produced by the human body, and small quantities of it are exhaled. - We have had lots of fun with some so-called "studies" which measured puffs of e-cigs - and all the exhaled air in between - and which attributed all the formaldehyde to the e-cig *grins*
 
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amunosy

Full Member
Sep 14, 2013
10
4
France
Are there any translations of the articles and addendum a you can link to. (...)

There isn't as far as I can think of. But you could check Dr Farsalinos' reply, here, this will give you a fairly good idea of the full story:
http://ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/2013-04-07-09-50-07/130-60-millions-de-consommateurs2?fb_action_ids=231092823709143&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map={%22231092823709143%22%3A602624533135937}&action_type_map={%22231092823709143%22%3A%22og.likes%22}&action_ref_map=
 

amunosy

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Sep 14, 2013
10
4
France
(...) :facepalm: Are people in France actually believing this article?!?!?!

Well the French are no worse and no better than the others: what is written in bold letters at the top of an article, on top of that with the backing of a so-called "consumer institute", is automatically considered "The Truth"....

The magazine has started changing its tactics today, saying "it's all the fault of those ....dy journalists in the press: they took our study and made alarming headlines from it but that was not at all our original intention."
This is why we are demanding an official statement from the French magazine: let THEM tell the press that e-cigs are not as bad as was written a few weeks ago !

Come and join our demands if you feel this is justified !
 

amunosy

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Sep 14, 2013
10
4
France
I do believe the translation was already posted in the Media and General News forum, where there's already a lively discussion going on about this topic.
Sorry, I wasn't aware... Could you possibly post a link here to the discussion you are referring to ? And would it be a good idea to merge this discussion into that one ?
 
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