Permission vs. Forgiveness - Vaping in the workplace. Ontario, Canada.

[atomicben]

I am a government employee working for a municipality in Ontario.

When I got my first ecig about 3 months ago, I made the mistake of doing a quick demonstration for the Director of HR and asked if I may vape at work. I sent him a couple links to information to get started.

The next morning the answer came.

"The consensus in the HR world is that vaping should be treated as smoking and therefore should only be done outside."

Considering that the answer came so quickly I don't believe he did any "real" research.

I guess my point is: sometimes it's better to ask forgiveness rather than permission.

Had I just done it, at worst, they would have found out and come up with the same rule. At best, it may have gone completely unnoticed.

i don't even have to try and figure out why. It's just easier to say no. It's ignorance and fear and it's a disgrace.

 

[Dauslyn]

I went the other direction, I just started stealth-vaping at my desk. Eventually, one of my managers noticed, and much to my surprise after explaining the PV to him, he simply congratulated me on quitting smoking. Soon other managers noticed, and eventually directors and other top execs, and their reply was all the same 'neat - glad you're not smoking'. Didn't even need to ask forgiveness, now I just blatantly blow cumulonimbus clouds at my desk. Constantly. Every day.

 

[zer0ith]

It's unfortunate that perception is reality to most.

 

[SoUnique]

I'm a believer in forgiveness too, not permission. My supervisor is happy for me & wants me to convert the other smokers at work. My manager seemed interested at first, hoping her son would try it because he started smoking again, now she's not as supportive. She keeps asking if I'm sure it's safe, and I keep telling her it beats the crap out of the alternative. At times she tells me I look like a junky, I laugh and agree, I am a nic junky, and PV hardware too.

I don't vape to much in front of her, don't want to catch her on a bad day & be told I have to do it outside. If it ever comes to that I'll make sure I start taking all my breaks, all the missed ones too. LOL

 

[DemonCleaner]

I'm a big fan of the fake cough from passers by. People are rediculous.

 

[Dauslyn]

I'm a big fan of the fake cough from passers by. People are rediculous.

just assume they're choking, and perform the heimlich maneuver forcefully so as to dislodge whatever is blocking their air passage.

 

[atomicben]

I'm a believer in forgiveness too, not permission. My supervisor is happy for me & wants me to convert the other smokers at work. My manager seemed interested at first, hoping her son would try it because he started smoking again, now she's not as supportive. She keeps asking if I'm sure it's safe, and I keep telling her it beats the crap out of the alternative. At times she tells me I look like a junky, I laugh and agree, I am a nic junky, and PV hardware too.

I don't vape to much in front of her, don't want to catch her on a bad day & be told I have to do it outside. If it ever comes to that I'll make sure I start taking all my breaks, all the missed ones too. LOL

It seems you have an emotional boss that can't seem to make a decision like "I'm ok with vaping at work" and stick to it. Seems that she let's the ebb and flow of personal issues affect the situations at work. That sucks.

*** FOR THE RECORD, THIS BOSS HAPPENS TO BE A WOMAN, I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS STRICTLY A FEMALE ISSUE, I'M JUST DISCUSSING THE ISSUE AT HAND!***

Sorry for the caps but while I was writing that I could almost feel the backlash coming.

 

[larktdl]

I am not convinced that official permission should be given to allow people to vape at work. Of course, I don't vape like a maniac in the office and if I was told that I can't I might even opt out of taking an outside break to get a couple of puffs. If somebody in the office is hanging around in my section of the office (for whatever the reason) I keep to minimal vaping or just don't do it. I have proven to myself that I can go for hours without using a PV so no big deal.

We also need to look at the big picture .... the odour and the vapor residue associated with vaping. If I was the employer, regardless of what I knew about vaping, would I allow vaping in the workplace? Honestly, I don't know but I am leaning towards 'I would not allow it'. All you need you is one employee to complain about somebody who is vaping and game over. Also, if I allowed vaping what other odd requests would I need to approve/authorize?

If my manager told me I can no longer vape at work, I will suck it up (mutter to myself) and move forward.

 

[atomicben]

I appreciate your opinion/argument. I did mutter and suck it up. lol
Vaping in the office isn't a battle I'm ready to fight yet. But I think that the odour is virtually non-existent and I've never heard of residue.

When I think of the lost productivity due to smoke breaks and insurance/medical issues, I think, WHY NOT allow it? But there will always be that goofball that coughs or is (or pretends to be) bothered by it. Then there's the lack of critical independent study (which just might be by-choice in order to avoid the issue all together) which makes it easy to dismiss.

I dunno... I imagine the reluctance to accept it is simply a way of avoiding any issue, big or small, that might arise. I mean, if I was running the show, I might get sick of complaints from co-workers about such frivilous things as "so and so leaves his coffee mug on the counter" or "so and so's perfume bugs me" or "so and so is late again" and all sorts of other childish complaints and sensitivities people invent to create drama in their lives, but then I would say - "Hey, it's your JOB to deal with such things and figure them out not just go around banning things to make your life a littler easier. You make a lot of money to figure these things out, anyone can just sit around saying NO to everything without any real thought"

 

[zer0ith]

Vaping in the office isn't a battle I'm ready to fight yet. But I think that the odour is virtually non-existent and I've never heard of residue.

Oh there is an odour. A good chunk of the time its usually females that pick it up (that may just be a generalization as most men don't really comment). But there definitely is an odour to our vapor.

As for the residue, where I notice it is in my car. Blowing the vapor directly onto the windshield and after a while I do notice a slight film develop on there.

 

[larktdl]

Oh there is an odour. A good chunk of the time its usually females that pick it up (that may just be a generalization as most men don't really comment). But there definitely is an odour to our vapor.

As for the residue, where I notice it is in my car. Blowing the vapor directly onto the windshield and after a while I do notice a slight film develop on there.

Without a doubt there is a residue. Time to get out the windex and paper towels when you see the film on the inner windshield. And it is from the vapor.

 

[larktdl]

I appreciate your opinion/argument. I did mutter and suck it up. lol
Vaping in the office isn't a battle I'm ready to fight yet. But I think that the odour is virtually non-existent and I've never heard of residue.

When I think of the lost productivity due to smoke breaks and insurance/medical issues, I think, WHY NOT allow it? But there will always be that goofball that coughs or is (or pretends to be) bothered by it. Then there's the lack of critical independent study (which just might be by-choice in order to avoid the issue all together) which makes it easy to dismiss.

I dunno... I imagine the reluctance to accept it is simply a way of avoiding any issue, big or small, that might arise. I mean, if I was running the show, I might get sick of complaints from co-workers about such frivilous things as "so and so leaves his coffee mug on the counter" or "so and so's perfume bugs me" or "so and so is late again" and all sorts of other childish complaints and sensitivities people invent to create drama in their lives, but then I would say - "Hey, it's your JOB to deal with such things and figure them out not just go around banning things to make your life a littler easier. You make a lot of money to figure these things out, anyone can just sit around saying NO to everything without any real thought"

There is a residue related to vaping as zer0ith has already pointed out. Also, many companies do have have a company wide ban on use of perfume in the office (I know mine does) and I do understand why. Many people can't tolerate it, usually due to allergies. At one time workers were allowed to bring pets to the office. This was good for about a day, all it took was one person to report allergies due to pets in the office and the policy was immediatley revoked.

Both of our arguments are valid. I did read sometime ago that one of the big US web companies (Facebook or Google) authorized the use of PVs in the workplace. The reason for the authorization was as you mentioned 'increased productivity'. I guess it really depends on the company ....

 

[Dauslyn]

There is a residue related to vaping as zer0ith has already pointed out. Also, many companies do have have a company wide ban on use of perfume in the office (I know mine does) and I do understand why. Many people can't tolerate it, usually due to allergies. At one time workers were allowed to bring pets to the office. This was good for about a day, all it took was one person to report allergies due to pets in the office and the policy was immediatley revoked.

Both of our arguments are valid. I did read sometime ago that one of the big US web companies (Facebook or Google) authorized the use of PVs in the workplace. The reason for the authorization was as you mentioned 'increased productivity'. I guess it really depends on the company ....

Good point - my workplace is a 'scent-free' environment also. Though I don't remember this personally, bank-tellers used to be allowed to smoke cigarettes at their wickets. At that time, I'm sure a cigarette-ban sounded ludicrous as well. Fact is, we really don't know what the long-term effects are, and though I'm sure they are infinitely better than analogues, it's easy to see why they're bannable from a corporate perspective.

Likely Google - they seem to be more forward thinking than most companies, from their corporate culture perspective. Did you know that they allow employees 20% of their paid work time to work on personal projects of their choosing? One fellow invented 'gmail' this way!

 

[teabagger]

I believe a work place has the right to ask you not to vape inside. Until it can be unequivocally proven that there is no ill effects from vaping first hand or second, its our obligation to the vaping community as whole to show respect in the manner. Sometimes squeaky wheels get greased, Sometimes squeaky wheels get replaced.

 

[WolfeReign]

So my question for the umpteenth time is thus: in the past when on the cigarette's it was a slight agitation to go outside to smoke on a break then put the pack away when headed into work correct? Following this to a logical conclusion why is it that the second one gets a KR808D-1, a ego, a modification or a tin foil encrusted potato with two aresol can sized batters and an threaded connection does super vapor, with the ability to take down their ex smoker brethren with one well aimed vapor cloud appear?

Now sure one could go with it is easier to ask forgiveness then it is to ask permission, but when you supply links to e-cigarettes or even say what it is, and the google search engine being so popular you type a search of "e-cigarette's" and ECF is the third link displaying proudly how they are the largest source of information. Without signing in you can view this and other threads in the Canadian section, even do searches which reveal how unfair one's employer then go into how they are going to take unnecessary action on the employer.

There is countless threads and conversations where people have said they are taking the "bully" stance and it is their way or no way, and talk about how they have gotten verbal in many places when told they were asked to put the pv away......

Have you since this has happened requested to make a appointment with your HR? maybe make a presentation to them with the things you have dug up outlining everything in detail? Instead of coming here and saying such and such employer was evil as she was female maybe plan to take a different course of action? Yes i know this would sound like approaching them with passive-aggressive intention, but one gets a lot further with a soft handshake then ruling with a iron fist.

I think it was Zero (or was it someone else on another thread) stating that you have to remember you are not only representing yourself but the entire vaping community as a whole, and your actions can have tremendous ripple effects.

 

[SoUnique]

I know when I run the show at work I'm very lenient. If someone wants to go for a smoke & their job is covered, I have no prob with it at all. On the flip side, I do expect & require that the jobs that have to be finished are. It's a give & take that I believe has to be a 2 way street. I don't expect anyone to do something I myself wouldn't do.

I tend to be a bit of a rebel too, if I'm told I can't vape at work, I'll stealth vape. Period.

 

[chagrin]

Personally I can see both sides of this, it's rather annoying being lumped with smokers, but privately owned places can set whatever rules they want and I'd have to agree with larktdl, zer0ith and teabagger.

Vaping's long term effects and second hand or even first hand exposure isn't fully known. Vapour most definitely does smell and it doesn't all evaporate and most definitely not instantly. I think that's silly that some people think it doesn't smell or linger at all. If you're vaping something you can smell and taste, how can it not smell and smell stronger to others ? I've personally never understood that argument and I also find it funny that I skim somewhere how people love a flavour and say how it makes their house smell, but when it comes to arguing for vaping it is suddenly odourless to everyone. Sure it doesn't smell nearly as bad as cigarettes, vapour does evaporate for the most part, but it's obviously not all going to disappear completely and does leave a residue in the air and I would assume surfaces. Maybe it's not turning things yellow or brown like smoke, but still.

Oddly I have a terrible sense of smell, but am mildly allergic to everything and when I smoked inside occasionally, I could smell it for days afterwards, I can smell the overuse of perfume/cologne 20+ feet away and now I can smell cigarette smoke from 100 feet away. Now that I've started chain vaping at times, I can leave my living room ( which admittedly is smallish, with bad airflow ) and come back to the smell and lingering vapour for at least 20-30 minutes.

Has anyone considered how badly cigarette smoke smells to you now, but it was barely noticeable when you smoked ? Has anyone considered that this might be similar for people who don't vape, don't like the flavour you're vaping or are sensitive to chemicals ?

I digress, but really I think some discretion and respect on both sides is needed.

 

[slojas]

"Whats that thing?, are you smoking inside!??.

-it's just a fancy Nicorette inhaler, it's kept me free of smokes for a few months now-

"How's it work?"

-Just a battery and a heating coil that turns a water based nicotine solution into vapor, like the steam from a coffee pot-

"Won't water build up in your lungs?"

-Did you drown in the steam from your shower this morning?-

"I heard HC banned those things"

-Nope, e-cig stuff is perfectly legit. It's the nicotine in the vapor solution that causes all the confusion, HC hasn't fugured out how to control and tax it yet, so they ask everybody to not to use e-cigs till they get the red tape figured out, basically-

"Is it safe?"

-Cigarettes have smoke and fumes from burning leaves, paper and chemical additives that help to preserve the tobacco, add flavor and make the nicotine more addictive, science estimates 4000 to 7000 chemicals in every puff and in the second hand smoke shared with others, many of these chemicals are known carcinogens and poisons. My e-cig is 70% PG 30 % VG with a hint of artificial flavor and a spec of pure nicotine, it contains no carcinogens and the second hand vapor disperses instantly, its main ingredients are extremely common and can be found in many food, medicines and personal hygiene products and has safety testing going all the way back to the 1940's-

"HC found PEG and carcinogens in e-cigs OMG"

-The levels were lower than what is commonly found in nicotine patch, inhaler and gums, a potato would have higher levels and the testing perameters were less then scientific.-

'Nicotine is super addictive poison of the Devil and you are bad"

-In its pure form and consumed in proper dosage, nicotine is no worse than caffeine in both effects and withdrawal symtoms-

"I don't care what you say, you are smoking anti-freeze and plastic and putting me and my children at risk, you should be banished for being a weak addict, omg get away from me *cough* *cough*"

-YOUR IGNORANCE CONFUSES AND INFURIATES ME, MAY YOUR BODY BE CONSUMED BY DISEASE AND ALL YOUR EARTHLY POSSESSIONS DESTROYED-

 

[fourtytwo]

I am definitely in the permission camp.
The employer has an obligation to more then just a few people who vape.

 

[Dauslyn]

"Whats that thing?, are you smoking inside!??.

-it's just a fancy Nicorette inhaler, it's kept me free of smokes for a few months now-

"How's it work?"

-Just a battery and a heating coil that turns a water based nicotine solution into vapor, like the steam from a coffee pot-

"Won't water build up in your lungs?"

-Did you drown in the steam from your shower this morning?-

"I heard HC banned those things"

-Nope, e-cig stuff is perfectly legit. It's the nicotine in the vapor solution that causes all the confusion, HC hasn't fugured out how to control and tax it yet, so they ask everybody to not to use e-cigs till they get the red tape figured out, basically-

"Is it safe?"

-Cigarettes have smoke and fumes from burning leaves, paper and chemical additives that help to preserve the tobacco, add flavor and make the nicotine more addictive, science estimates 4000 to 7000 chemicals in every puff and in the second hand smoke shared with others, many of these chemicals are known carcinogens and poisons. My e-cig is 70% PG 30 % VG with a hint of artificial flavor and a spec of pure nicotine, it contains no carcinogens and the second hand vapor disperses instantly, its main ingredients are extremely common and can be found in many food, medicines and personal hygiene products and has safety testing going all the way back to the 1940's-

"HC found PEG and carcinogens in e-cigs OMG"

-The levels were lower than what is commonly found in nicotine patch, inhaler and gums, a potato would have higher levels and the testing perameters were less then scientific.-

'Nicotine is super addictive poison of the Devil and you are bad"

-In its pure form and consumed in proper dosage, nicotine is no worse than caffeine in both effects and withdrawal symtoms-

"I don't care what you say, you are smoking anti-freeze and plastic and putting me and my children at risk, you should be banished for being a weak addict, omg get away from me *cough* *cough*"

-YOUR IGNORANCE CONFUSES AND INFURIATES ME, MAY YOUR BODY BE CONSUMED BY DISEASE AND ALL YOUR EARTHLY POSSESSIONS DESTROYED-

thank you for this, best laugh I've had all day. Might I add - 'may your armpits be infested by the fleas of a thousand camels' to your ending?