Pre-vet workshop thread
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What mistake tibs?
first i had 'd' then changed it to 'e' because 'e' had been in clarified in april
as to 'd' my advice to prevets has been ''post even if there's no one on pvt'' we've always pulled it off so far but how would it look if we didn't?
ces, did you not read tweety's post about being the only one available for late turnings atm and the pressure that generates?
I did and I realize that tweety has most frequently been the someone, cause it's usually late night turnings that are an issue. I'm trying not to specify who does what...it may not be the best way, but for me keeping it in general terms helps me stay focused on the overall questions (and no, I don't think that it should fall on any one person who is gracious enough to completely change her schedule for the thread- and several people do it at different times)
That I probably didn't do a good job of communicating..I meant that I really don't know the effect if that changes...cause it hasn't happened so far.
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The "what mistake?" was rhetorical ... I removed the clarification
But thanks.Good advice.
Hi all. Was doing a flyby, but decided to check here.
I'm glad to see the discussion is starting up. Also encourages by people's opinions.
I've received no other external communication... so what you read here is what you get. Now, for some ramblings:
Resolved Issues (until/unless it needs to change for some reason):
A) Like CES, Kat, others have mentioned, the thread should stay a thread. Fine by me. Thread is still a thread.
B) We have no extremely urgent time issue, although to respect Tib's and whiskey's wishes we need to resolve this.
Open Issues:
C) The list thread needs a home. I suggest a neutral place, with neutral people. That last bit needs some explaining. The list cannot be associated with a single person. Pre-Vet Celebration has grown beyond a person. Although I have no intention of removing whiskey's name from post #1, and grant her full credit for the creation of the thread, it's clear that her leaving results in a "list move" at minimum. Also, since the contests are associated there is a "bigger than a thread" concept at work here. I don't want the thread "owned" by whiskey, tibs, jj, me, you, your sister, your brother, the abominable snowman or even Elvis. It doesn't make sense to me. I suggest a group "owned" AND moderated by ECF admin/moderator staff.
The social groups say that they can be monitored by moderators. Fine. That's all we need. Some of us may have special privileges to edit the list thread. IDK if that can be assigned on a thread-basis or not. Those of you that admin groups may know more about this or the possibilities. I'm having a hard time defining the possibilities since I don't know the software or the available options.
The contest on a monthly basis is not an issue that I know of. But:
D) What if there is no PVT member available to do "fireworks" at the assigned time? What happens to the contest Grand Prize entry? Also, how do we make it up to the vet?
E) Some seem to think that rescheduling the time (because they can't be there at the normal time for "fireworks") violates the contest rules for Grand Prize entry and disqualifies the vet. I want double confirmation on this. If they arrange it ahead of time, and the list is update with a new date and time, they show up for the fireworks...why are they not eligible? What is the real issue, or is it a communication problem?
The easiest solution to D is to ensure that there is someone available. This will be easier with more participation. The intent is to not only grow participation in avatar parties/threads but to grow PVT group members. Having a social group for them may raise some awareness of the group... while keep the thread itself a thread. So an open group where everyone can join/drop and that encourages a "party/celebrate" accomplishments is a positive thing IMO.
If E is clarified it would help. Another option (I stress option) is to hold fireworks celebrations in advance. Now, this takes some explaining due to E. However I think it could work. Let's say we hold celebrations 4 times a day at pre scheduled times....example midnight, 6 am, noon, 6 pm. We publish fireworks along with congrats messages for anyone about to turn before the next "window" (midnight.. anyone that turns from midnight ->6:00 am. Yeah, I know they are at :25 past, but that still works for the windows. So, all the member has to do is post "Thank You!" during their assigned turning time and they are still eligible since they are "there" at that time... even if we aren't. We would have posted links to their welcome threads in the fireworks. That may take the pressure off. I still want E clarified though.
Just kicking it around.
Good ideas.
Sorry for invading but I keep coming up in the conversation.
I know you are all hurting. I was going through this all a couple of months ago so I know hearts are breaking. It's hard.
At least you have each other to lean on.And I do not get any pleasure out of seeing ANY of you suffering.
This all started out as people coming to PreVet and then all of a sudden we were trolling for 'friends' to invite over. How is this fair to all the other PreVets that aren't someone's friend?
That go forth and bring a friend was to fill the gaps. Well they were filled and it became obvious it was too much.
So unless admin jumps in and helps, I suggest forgetting about the list Tom puts together and let them come to you.
If I could go back and change things, I would. I still love PreVet. Unlike you, I've pretty much gone through much of the healing process but events still put me on guard because I don't want to 'be hurt' again. I just want to go forward.
As for those who are worrying about me getting involved again, well don't worry anymore. Except for dropping in there to chit chat and joining in the celebrations, opening a thread now and then for a friend, I don't intend to. I never wanted to be queen of the hill. As I said many a time before I don't know how Whiskey played hostess day after day after day after day.
And yes the two of us will never be close friends or just friends. I can only hope she will come to agree, we have to learn to tolerate each other. We've seen the worst of each other which sent us both into defense mode.
I wish the best for the transition, and best wishes for those who are taking the helm. I've offered already, if you need help, just ask but that is limited to help and not any full time involvement. And there are no strings attached.
The to-be-there at the exact time was set because there was already an obvious problem with people not showing up and it was to encourage them to be there.
This is just for ONE of the grand prizes and there will be more than one. Hopefully three or four. That is the fact that you should be stressing for those that are worrying about just that ONE.
At this point, I would love to change that but there will be no changes and I have no control over it. We, you, can discuss this to death but it isn't going to change. And if it was changed, the people that already went to the effort to follow the rule would be ticked.
As for relief from the contest problem. There is no rule against any PreVet from getting any ECF Vet friend of there's to open their thread. It was done early on but it just wasn't advertised. If you think they are there just for that, tell them that. Give them a helping hand in finding someone outside of PreVet itself.
Now I back out of here.
I have read all the posts carefully and given the matter at hand a lot of thought. I do not wish to relitigate the case and continue the blame game. What happened, happened, and now it's time to move on.
First, if we come to the negotiating table with animus, recriminations and preconditions, we're not going to get anywhere, I'm afraid. So let's keep an open mind and try one more time, please.
Second, rules can change. Rules are being changed, redefined, amended, broadened or tightened all the time, as we all just saw recently. And we are dealing here with contest rules, which are really up to the person organizing a contest. If there is a will, or a need, to change the rules, there is way. I can offer several very simple solutions to out present predicament that will simplify the entire process and be as fair as anything that has to do with a contest. Here's one: We're hitting a half-year mark with our contests--perfect timing. All we need to do is to announce that due to the logistics of the prevet celebrations, which involve too much work for people who presently run the show, we are going to abandon the requirement for avatar parties (as of July 1) and to make things right, we will have three separate grand drawings at the end of the year: 1) for those who showed up for their avatar parties between January and June 30th, 2012--1 grand prize; 2) for all the others who turned vet during the same period of time but couldn't/wouldn't attend their avatar parties--1 grand prize, but a larger pool of contestants, so that's fair; 3) starting from July 1 to the end of the year, everybody who shows up in prevets and requests a welcome thread and/or a party is eligible for the third end-of-the-year grand drawing--2 prizes will be awarded. [Or, alternatively, we could have one grand end-of-the year contest for all those who had a welcome thread--with 2 or 3 grand prizes--whichever is easier.] Neat, clean, fair, easy to understand, and solves all of our problems, in my opinion. If anyone wants an avatar party between July 1st and Dec 31st, they are welcome to it, but it is no longer required to enter the grand contest. The new vets can set their own time, if necessary, and just have fun. And we can relax. Why can't it be done??? I really don't understand.
The reason I objected so bitterly to that avatar party requirement is that it is very arbitrary and unfair; it punishes people who have real world commitments (work, children, travel, military service) and that's just not right. We should embrace and reward all the vets who find that milestone meaningful to them, and be as welcoming and gracious as possible, rather than have them jump through all kinds of hoops in order to get a piece of carrot.
And lastly, I would like to say one more word about those late night turnings. I'm not the only one who had to rearrange RW duties in order to greet the new vets and be there for them in the middle of the night. Natalia and Amanda used to be there with me, and it was always fun. However, their circumstances have changed, and they can't do it at this time--even though Natalia is still making heroic attempts to show up becase she doesn't want to leave me all alone. Thanks Nat! But I will not be able to always be there and I don't want that responsibility, either. Not to mention the fact that some new vets get the time wrong, once in a while, which necessitates frantic PMs and waiting for another hour--or two.
If there is a will, there is way.
First, if we come to the negotiating table with animus, recriminations and preconditions, we're not going to get anywhere, I'm afraid. So let's keep an open mind and try one more time, please.
Second, rules can change. Rules are being changed, redefined, amended, broadened or tightened all the time, as we all just saw recently. And we are dealing here with contest rules, which are really up to the person organizing a contest. If there is a will, or a need, to change the rules, there is way. I can offer several very simple solutions to out present predicament that will simplify the entire process and be as fair as anything that has to do with a contest. Here's one: We're hitting a half-year mark with our contests--perfect timing. All we need to do is to announce that due to the logistics of the prevet celebrations, which involve too much work for people who presently run the show, we are going to abandon the requirement for avatar parties (as of July 1) and to make things right, we will have three separate grand drawings at the end of the year: 1) for those who showed up for their avatar parties between January and June 30th, 2012--1 grand prize; 2) for all the others who turned vet during the same period of time but couldn't/wouldn't attend their avatar parties--1 grand prize, but a larger pool of contestants, so that's fair; 3) starting from July 1 to the end of the year, everybody who shows up in prevets and requests a welcome thread and/or a party is eligible for the third end-of-the-year grand drawing--2 prizes will be awarded. [Or, alternatively, we could have one grand end-of-the year contest for all those who had a welcome thread--with 2 or 3 grand prizes--whichever is easier.] Neat, clean, fair, easy to understand, and solves all of our problems, in my opinion. If anyone wants an avatar party between July 1st and Dec 31st, they are welcome to it, but it is no longer required to enter the grand contest. The new vets can set their own time, if necessary, and just have fun. And we can relax. Why can't it be done??? I really don't understand.
The reason I objected so bitterly to that avatar party requirement is that it is very arbitrary and unfair; it punishes people who have real world commitments (work, children, travel, military service) and that's just not right. We should embrace and reward all the vets who find that milestone meaningful to them, and be as welcoming and gracious as possible, rather than have them jump through all kinds of hoops in order to get a piece of carrot.
And lastly, I would like to say one more word about those late night turnings. I'm not the only one who had to rearrange RW duties in order to greet the new vets and be there for them in the middle of the night. Natalia and Amanda used to be there with me, and it was always fun. However, their circumstances have changed, and they can't do it at this time--even though Natalia is still making heroic attempts to show up becase she doesn't want to leave me all alone. Thanks Nat! But I will not be able to always be there and I don't want that responsibility, either. Not to mention the fact that some new vets get the time wrong, once in a while, which necessitates frantic PMs and waiting for another hour--or two.
If there is a will, there is way.
And if you really want to know how I feel about that avatar party requirement, here's the latest example of a prevet who will be ineligible for the big prize drawing:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-2012-everybody-welcome-6108.html#post6201914
I was too embarrassed to tell him about his ineligibility--I'll leave it to the people who run the contest.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-2012-everybody-welcome-6108.html#post6201914
I was too embarrassed to tell him about his ineligibility--I'll leave it to the people who run the contest.
OK. I guess I need to repost my question:
1) We don't have to change the rules as far as I know. But we can change the turnee's time if requested and they cooperate (by not logging in). That looks to be within the rules to me.
2) We don't have to change the rules
3) The rules don't need to change.
4) I'm not asking to change the rules. Only to understand how rescheduling the vet's turning breaks them. It doesn't, as far as I can see. If the forum software waits for them to turn (because they didn't log in)... and they don't turn until the revised time on the list... how is that breaking the rules?
So let's put it another way: Explain to me how rescheduling the time for the turning (and the pre-vet doesn't log in) violates the existing (unchanged) rules.
Did I mention we don't need to change the rules? That's not what I'm asking....
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What people (jj and ?j0ker?) may not be aware of is that "the exact time" and "turning time" can be ...um...controlled... by not logging in.
So if the ECF Software says you're not a vet at 8:24 a.m and you're there and at 8:25 a.m. it says you're a vet... you've met the requirements IMO. The software concurs. It doesn't matter that we initially thought it was going to be 6:25 a.m. but you rescheduled ahead of time. There's fireworks at 8:25 and you're there and your status changed.
So if the ECF Software says you're not a vet at 8:24 a.m and you're there and at 8:25 a.m. it says you're a vet... you've met the requirements IMO. The software concurs. It doesn't matter that we initially thought it was going to be 6:25 a.m. but you rescheduled ahead of time. There's fireworks at 8:25 and you're there and your status changed.
I don't see why that wouldn't work Atty but this is getting way too complicated for everyone. It's supposed to be fun.
Good ideas.
Sorry for invading but I keep coming up in the conversation.
I know you are all hurting. I was going through this all a couple of months ago so I know hearts are breaking. It's hard.
And I do not get any pleasure out of seeing ANY of you suffering.
This all started out as people coming to PreVet and then all of a sudden we were trolling for 'friends' to invite over. How is this fair to all the other PreVets that aren't someone's friend?
That go forth and bring a friend was to fill the gaps. Well they were filled and it became obvious it was too much.
So unless admin jumps in and helps, I suggest forgetting about the list Tom puts together and let them come to you.
If I could go back and change things, I would. I still love PreVet. Unlike you, I've pretty much gone through much of the healing process but events still put me on guard because I don't want to 'be hurt' again. I just want to go forward.
As for those who are worrying about me getting involved again, well don't worry anymore. Except for dropping in there to chit chat and joining in the celebrations, opening a thread now and then for a friend, I don't intend to. I never wanted to be queen of the hill. As I said many a time before I don't know how Whiskey played hostess day after day after day after day.
And yes the two of us will never be close friends or just friends. I can only hope she will come to agree, we have to learn to tolerate each other. We've seen the worst of each other which sent us both into defense mode.
I wish the best for the transition, and best wishes for those who are taking the helm. I've offered already, if you need help, just ask but that is limited to help and not any full time involvement. And there are no strings attached .
The to-be-there at the exact time was set because there was already an obvious problem with people not showing up and it was to encourage them to be there.
This is just for ONE of the grand prizes and there will be more than one. Hopefully three or four. That is the fact that you should be stressing for those that are worrying about just that ONE.
At this point, I would love to change that but there will be no changes and I have no control over it. We, you, can discuss this to death But it isn't going to change. And if it was changed, the people that already went to the effort to follow the rule would be ticked.
As for relief from the contest problem. There is no rule against any PreVet from getting any ECF Vet friend of there's to open their thread. It was done early on but it just wasn't advertised. If you think they are there just for that, tell them that. Give them a helping hand in finding someone outside of PreVet itself.
Now I back out of here.
.....................................................................
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We do it already Fran. It's not new. Just trying to get over the communication problem with turning times and rescheduling things and rules.
i don't think it's a communication problem, atty. it was made very clear the last time - exact time, as given by ecf or ineligible for grand prize.
sug!
sug!
they are very much aware, atty - any rescheduling will void eligibility - we've had a few of those. just look at the ''++'' and ''--'' along the welcome threads.
I'm not discussing past rule violations Tibby. I'm not responsible if jj or j0ker don't follow their own rules.
If the vet turns (as indicated by their status change in the forum software), they are there, and we have the planned fireworks, they are eligible according to the existing rules. Unless A) I've missed some rules posted elsewhere, or B) there's other stuff I don't know about. In either case, I'm asking for clarification.
If the vet turns (as indicated by their status change in the forum software), they are there, and we have the planned fireworks, they are eligible according to the existing rules. Unless A) I've missed some rules posted elsewhere, or B) there's other stuff I don't know about. In either case, I'm asking for clarification.
I would like J0kers input as to whats wrong with letting people change their turn times due to other RW obligations, and who said that would void their chances in the contest...did he ok that rule??
After all, he is admin and in charge of the contests no one else...PERIOD
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