Predictions?

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VincentMighan

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So we have all heard it, at least in small fragments. The Head of the witch hunt herself has stepped down from office. The grandfather date to the regulations has been moved to 2015, and it supposedly comes in effect in either June or July, either way the upcoming date is seriously gunna screw us. But what if perhaps this new head of the Fda isn't so bad? Perhaps the grandfather date will be put back in the terrible spit of 07, or the vaping witch hunt will soon begin again. Either way, we won't know until everything goes public, but what do you think will happen?
 

Robino1

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Jman8

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Either way, we won't know until everything goes public, but what do you think will happen?

I still think it will be rather tame compared to outright ban of vaping products and elimination of 99% of the market. I think that sort of scenario would be a decade away, and assumes vapers will be completely ineffective in fighting back and completely unwilling to establish any sort of underground market (including DIY) going forward.

I think the politics will be (or arguably already are) kinda scary, but is truly based on the way FSPTCA is framed, and how much vaping is tied to that core premise. I think ANTZ are routinely overplaying their hand and in medium to long term political reality, stand to lose more than they could possibly gain. But I think there are enough on our side of the equation that aren't shy about using scare mongering tactics and who might sell out on a few fundamental points to save their own butts.

I believe vapers will be effective in fighting back, but we won't get everything that all of us want, while we will get some items, and likely some fundamental stuff. As a prime example of what I'm saying, I think flavors may be temporarily banned, and presented to public as if there is no possible reason for flavors other than to attract kids to vaping nicotine, and that this is a permanent ban being put into place. But due to fighting back, the tide will turn on that, and vapers will effectively fight to have flavors allowed, while attempting to be part of the 'solution' that prevents kids from getting a hold of vape stuff. Another example, though not so sure about this one, is I can see a scenario where open systems are banned, and vapers fight back on that, and have that overturned. By fighting back, I do mean using courts to make the ultimate decision to allow, but also using underground market to show it is clearly the choice of adults to use this.

When I say 'rather tame,' I am referring to what is immediately on the horizon. I think there will be more than one round of proposed items to control the industry, and that further rounds will not be so tame. Currently, a ban on flavors would be something that was not presented in FDA proposal from 2014, but I see a round coming about where that will be either proposed or simply established as falling in line with FSPTCA. And I honestly do think smoking could make a come back of sorts in all this because of how much ANTZ are overplaying their hand, and how much they are risking their deceptive tactics to be exposed (as deception).
 

Bob Chill

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IMO- free flowing nic juice will be a thing of the past and we'll look at this period as the golden years.

Juice manufacturing will be placed in the hands of those who can afford becoming an approved manufacturer. BT and companies like Johnson Creek will control the manufacturing and distribution of juice. Boutique shops won't stand a chance. Internet ordering will cease but an underground market will likely exist but not flourish.

There will be strength limits and probably size limits. Taxation will be an unfavorable calculation trying to compare ejuice consumption to cigarette consumption. Taxation will occur at the Federal and State levels and bottles will be stamped. State taxes will vary and consumers will cross state lines to purchase juice much like they do in States with high tobacco taxes. Retailers will required to be licensed to sell juice. Larger businesses with purchasing power will keep margins thin and independent shops that rely on high margin juice sales will need to make serious adjustments to their business model if they want to stay viable.

I honestly don't see it happening any other way with juice. Nic juice is the choke of the entire industry and by far the lowest hanging fruit for control and regulation. That opportunity will be seized.

Hardware is very low tech in the grand scheme and probably not worth the complicated fight to control it. The case lost in 2009 was probably he only chance at getting full regulation of everything. The industry has grown too big and diverse to revert back to cigalike days and require sealed/tamper proof cartridges. Even though that threat is definitely on the table, it seems that it would be an impossible task in many ways. I'm sure part of the reason the FDA is taking so long on this issue is because how complicated it can be if the regulations are too far reaching. The jury remains out on this issue. We'll see how it shakes out.

If bottle juice is allowed, I'm almost certain that unflavored will be sold. That easily works around any flavor issue. It's super simple to flavor your own juice with just a little practice. Could open the door for another type of internet business. You know...."Ahlusion's Gourmet Baking Flavors".
 
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DrMA

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So we have all heard it, at least in small fragments. The Head of the witch hunt herself has stepped down from office. The grandfather date to the regulations has been moved to 2015, and it supposedly comes in effect in either June or July, either way the upcoming date is seriously gunna screw us. But what if perhaps this new head of the Fda isn't so bad? Perhaps the grandfather date will be put back in the terrible spit of 07, or the vaping witch hunt will soon begin again. Either way, we won't know until everything goes public, but what do you think will happen?

Sorry, but much of that post is gravely misleading. The new FDA chief is an even bigger Pharma shill than the predecessor.
FDA Deputy Commissioner for Medical Products and Tobacco | E-Cigarette Forum
There's been no moving of any grandfather date, only a bill introduced to Congress that has little or no chance to ever be sent for a vote. And Zeller is still out to finalize his Demon Regs intended to crush vaping and hand over the crumbs to BT.
 

AndriaD

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What I'd really most like to know is, how will any of this affect those of us who've stockpiled nicotine and mechs/rebuildables? I've got about 3 and a half yrs worth of nicotine stashed already, and that stash continues to grow, so things that are being said about "bottled ejuice," I just can't see how that affects me at all.

Andria
 

Bob Chill

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What I'd really most like to know is, how will any of this affect those of us who've stockpiled nicotine and mechs/rebuildables? I've got about 3 and a half yrs worth of nicotine stashed already, and that stash continues to grow, so things that are being said about "bottled ejuice," I just can't see how that affects me at all.

Andria

I've done the same. I have about 6-7 years worth properly stored and have been almost exclusively DIY for almost a year and half. I personally don't see the worst case scenario nearly as scary as others. But it would really be a criminal act to basically "force" current vapers back to cigarettes because gear that actually works may go away AND the price goes through the roof for juice. Not to mention all the current smokers would never even have the opportunity to make the switch.
 
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AndriaD

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I've done the same. I have about 6-7 years worth properly stored and have been almost exclusively DIY for almost a year and half. I personally don't see the worst case scenario nearly as scary as others. But it would really be a criminal act to basically "force" current vapers back to cigarettes because gear that actually works may go away AND the price goes through the roof for juice. Not to mention all the current smokers would never even have the opportunity to make the switch.

Oh, I agree, particularly for those smokers who may not have the opportunities that we've had, which is just CRIMINAL IMnsHO. But most of the "scary stuff" I see seems to be about the flavors or the price of commercial ejuice, and of course the price/availability of liquid nicotine (hence my substantial and growing stash); I'm just trying to figure out if the "scary stuff" could affect me in ways that I currently just don't see, considering my nic stash and full-DIY habit. I really don't see anything at all likely to happen to "food flavors," though I suppose the "tobacco flavors" might take a hit.

I suppose I should also stock up on maintenance items, like kayfun o-rings and insulators, and maybe driptips.

Andria
 

Shotglass

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I cannot find where it has been approved. I did find the place where it was introduced on April 28th.

Tobacco . org

Congressional Record, Volume 161 Issue 62 (Tuesday, April 28, 2015)

Broke link to Tobacco (dot) org..... just in case.

Not sure who actually runs that site

BT is claiming that the FDA intends to release the regs in the "next few weeks." So my guess would be probably at least 3 months before implementation due to regulatory course through the OMB.

Here's a link to the article: Phase 1 about to begin - Winston-Salem Journal: Home
 

Hype

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BT is claiming that the FDA intends to release the regs in the "next few weeks." So my guess would be probably at least 3 months before implementation due to regulatory course through the OMB.

Here's a link to the article: Phase 1 about to begin - Winston-Salem Journal: Home

The OMB phase is where all the device/juice/shop owners need to get together to present to OMB the adverse economic repercussions Deeming will have on their businesses and the Industry as a whole.
 
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Shotglass

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The OMB phase is where all the device/juice/shop owners need to get together to present to OMB the adverse economic repercussions Deeming will have on their businesses and the Industry as a whole.

I could be wrong but my understanding of the process is that the regulatory agency (FDA) submits proposed legislation with a comment period (which has elapsed) and once the final regs are set then Deeming regs are submitted to the Office of Management and Budget to determine affects on the federal budget...not for economic impact on the private sector.

Hype, I'm not sure how it works in Canada. In theory, it would be appropriate if the US OMB also considered economic impact on the private sector but traditionally the US government has only been concerned with increasing their budget and tax revenue.
 
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DC2

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IMO- free flowing nic juice will be a thing of the past and we'll look at this period as the golden years.

Juice manufacturing will be placed in the hands of those who can afford becoming an approved manufacturer. BT and companies like Johnson Creek will control the manufacturing and distribution of juice. Boutique shops won't stand a chance. Internet ordering will cease but an underground market will likely exist but not flourish.

There will be strength limits and probably size limits. Taxation will be an unfavorable calculation trying to compare ejuice consumption to cigarette consumption. Taxation will occur at the Federal and State levels and bottles will be stamped. State taxes will vary and consumers will cross state lines to purchase juice much like they do in States with high tobacco taxes. Retailers will required to be licensed to sell juice. Larger businesses with purchasing power will keep margins thin and independent shops that rely on high margin juice sales will need to make serious adjustments to their business model if they want to stay viable.

I honestly don't see it happening any other way with juice. Nic juice is the choke of the entire industry and by far the lowest hanging fruit for control and regulation. That opportunity will be seized.

Hardware is very low tech in the grand scheme and probably not worth the complicated fight to control it. The case lost in 2009 was probably he only chance at getting full regulation of everything. The industry has grown too big and diverse to revert back to cigalike days and require sealed/tamper proof cartridges. Even though that threat is definitely on the table, it seems that it would be an impossible task in many ways. I'm sure part of the reason the FDA is taking so long on this issue is because how complicated it can be if the regulations are too far reaching. The jury remains out on this issue. We'll see how it shakes out.

If bottle juice is allowed, I'm almost certain that unflavored will be sold. That easily works around any flavor issue. It's super simple to flavor your own juice with just a little practice. Could open the door for another type of internet business. You know...."Ahlusion's Gourmet Baking Flavors".
I totally and 100% agree with your entire post... except the highlighted part.
:(
 

DC2

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The OMB phase is where all the device/juice/shop owners need to get together to present to OMB the adverse economic repercussions Deeming will have on their businesses and the Industry as a whole.
Nobody is notified when these actions take place.
The time for action is the FDA comment period, which has passed.
 
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Hype

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Nobody is notified when these actions take place.
The time for action is the FDA comment period, which has passed.

According to this article it's not at ONB yet

FDA regulation of e-cigs may come in weeks, Reynolds CEO says - Winston-Salem Journal: Local Business


Knowing it will likely be at OMB soon it doesn't hurt to make the request to voice concerns. Zeller said that he's taken small business into consideration but that may mean they get an extra year reprieve before the axe comes down. Info on requesting OMB meeting below

About OIRA | The White House
 
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