Being that I don't drink, I am hoping to visit all of our national parks before I die. I should have a long life with my healthy liver!
(Watch "Baseball" too......Even if you don't like the game......."The West" also!)
Wiz!Prohibition - PBS Video - Ken Burns (a history lessen for tobacco prohibitionism)
- Thread starter Bill Godshall
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(Watch "Baseball" too......Even if you don't like the game......."The West" also!)
Wiz!
In 2003, North Dakota tried to pass legislation to ban the sale of all tobacco and the ANTZ (usual suspects: the North Dakota Medical Association, American Heart Association, American Cancer Society, American Lung Association, North Dakota Public Health Association and North Dakota Nurses Association) came out in opposition to the proposal, claiming:
We haven't tried it before, so we shouldn't try it now. We should just keep doing what we've been doing even though it hasn't worked.
And oh yeah - I would no longer be able to afford my yacht.
It is SOOOOO about the money!
We haven't tried it before, so we shouldn't try it now. We should just keep doing what we've been doing even though it hasn't worked.
And oh yeah - I would no longer be able to afford my yacht.
It is SOOOOO about the money!
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Kristin wrote:
In fact, that legislative proposal was cynically introduced by pro tobacco industry legislators as a publicitiy stunt.
Had there been enough votes to pass the legislation, the sponsors would have killed their own legislation, as they never had any intention of banning tobacco.
In fact, that legislative proposal was cynically introduced by pro tobacco industry legislators as a publicitiy stunt.
Had there been enough votes to pass the legislation, the sponsors would have killed their own legislation, as they never had any intention of banning tobacco.
I deplore the thought of banning tobacco. I like living in a free society, and I detest the thought of self-righteous leadership, especially one who's soul agenda is to force workers from their jobs, families from their homes and business owners from enterprise. I believe in education and if said education greatly reduces a business's business then that's their business not mine. But I refuse to shove them out of business due to Morals. Morals. My Gawd, what has this world come to where we force our moralless morals onto others.
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" ~ (Jiddu Krishnamurti)
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society" ~ (Jiddu Krishnamurti)
I wasn't going to pimp it, but I doubt anyone has ever done the history of baseball more justice.
I cried while watching the baseball series, but that isn't a big deal reallly.
I cry a lot, like during Twilight Zone episodes for instance.
I'm sort of like a 6'5" giant ..........
EDIT: I suppose I should mention that baseball is like a religion to me.
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I've heard that very point brought up numerous times by the smoker crowd in Siegel's blog comments, just ban tobacco.
Whether the sponsors were pro-tobacco or not, the ?non-profit?"health" associations didn't support what they claim their goal is, the eradication of tobacco use. I suppose they're happy doing this at the slow multiple century rate they've accomplished. It's much more profitable that way.
Funny how the Saloons once felt self assured that they'd never be banned, because the gov needed their tax money too badly.
Today (past) we see the Tobacco industry humorously and self assuredly daring the gov to cut themselves off from their profits.
Even the health asscoiations rely on the monies from the Tobacco industry.
Meanwhile, they try to sneak ridiculous taxes on eCigs into legislature. Fortunately, our good people here at ECF are on the ball and we've headed off the first big attempt.
Thy continue to be deceptive. They have a gameplan to either tax us to death or to ban us so they can continue collecting the Tobacco tax money, and unfortunately, that's the only part we can feel assured about.
Today (past) we see the Tobacco industry humorously and self assuredly daring the gov to cut themselves off from their profits.
Even the health asscoiations rely on the monies from the Tobacco industry.
Meanwhile, they try to sneak ridiculous taxes on eCigs into legislature. Fortunately, our good people here at ECF are on the ball and we've headed off the first big attempt.
Thy continue to be deceptive. They have a gameplan to either tax us to death or to ban us so they can continue collecting the Tobacco tax money, and unfortunately, that's the only part we can feel assured about.
The black market is picking up in Mexico following a rise in the cigarette tax
Illegal cigarette business takes off in Mexico
Interesting that British American Tobacco and Phillip Morris are supporting a war on contraband tobacco. The black market appears to be cutting into the share of both the tobacco companies and the Mexican government. The government take was down 29% in the first half of 2011 because of the black market.
Another point of interest is the price of RYO tobacco is dirt cheap. 3 pesos (22 cents) for a pack. This is very attractive to young smokers. As in Canada I would expect youth smoking to go up as the black market grows.
Illegal cigarette business takes off in Mexico
Interesting that British American Tobacco and Phillip Morris are supporting a war on contraband tobacco. The black market appears to be cutting into the share of both the tobacco companies and the Mexican government. The government take was down 29% in the first half of 2011 because of the black market.
Another point of interest is the price of RYO tobacco is dirt cheap. 3 pesos (22 cents) for a pack. This is very attractive to young smokers. As in Canada I would expect youth smoking to go up as the black market grows.
It's amazing how many government officials never heard of the economics "Law of diminishing returns." The concept of "price point" in marketing relies to some estent on this law.
For that matter, the "public health" experts should look up the definition, too:
Read more: law of diminishing returns: Definition from Answers.com
They might not recognize the humor in the saying, "The beatings will continue until morale improves."
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Stubby wrote:
I strongly caution Stubby and others from believing (and from repeating) some/most/all claims made by tobacco companies about tobacco smuggling, as their legislative goal is to repeal recently enacted tax increases and to prevent additional tax increases.
The only way tobacco companies could know that the market share of illegal cigarettes sold in Mexico increased from 2% to
10% is if they (the tobacco companies) actually sold the illegal cigarettes.
I also caution folks about relying upon what news stories claim (especially those in other countries), as it is likely that the Alliance Against Illegal Products actually told (or wrote to) the news reporter that the had "estimated" the illegal market shares of cigarettes.
Regardless, if 10% of cigarettes sold in Mexico are contraband, that's pretty low compared to many other countries.
Based upon various estimates, it appers that 10%-25% of cigarettes sold in the US are contraband (which includes cigarettes smuggled in from other countries, cigarettes made in the US and marked for export but never exported or reimported, cigarettes smuggled from one state to another, counterfeit cigarettes, and other cigarettes that are sold without paying federal, state and/or local taxes).
While its important to recognize that tobacco tax increases (especially very high taxes) provide financial incentives for increasing contraband cigarettes, its also important to recognize that the chief lobbying strategy for tobacco companies to oppose tobacco tax increases is to claim that they increase contraband.
Nearly twenty years ago, RJR MacDonald (RJ Reynolds subsidiary in Canada at the time) illegally flooded Canada with hundreds of millions of packs of contraband cigarettes as a strategy to convince the Canadian government to reduce cigarette taxes.
I strongly caution Stubby and others from believing (and from repeating) some/most/all claims made by tobacco companies about tobacco smuggling, as their legislative goal is to repeal recently enacted tax increases and to prevent additional tax increases.
The only way tobacco companies could know that the market share of illegal cigarettes sold in Mexico increased from 2% to
10% is if they (the tobacco companies) actually sold the illegal cigarettes.
I also caution folks about relying upon what news stories claim (especially those in other countries), as it is likely that the Alliance Against Illegal Products actually told (or wrote to) the news reporter that the had "estimated" the illegal market shares of cigarettes.
Regardless, if 10% of cigarettes sold in Mexico are contraband, that's pretty low compared to many other countries.
Based upon various estimates, it appers that 10%-25% of cigarettes sold in the US are contraband (which includes cigarettes smuggled in from other countries, cigarettes made in the US and marked for export but never exported or reimported, cigarettes smuggled from one state to another, counterfeit cigarettes, and other cigarettes that are sold without paying federal, state and/or local taxes).
While its important to recognize that tobacco tax increases (especially very high taxes) provide financial incentives for increasing contraband cigarettes, its also important to recognize that the chief lobbying strategy for tobacco companies to oppose tobacco tax increases is to claim that they increase contraband.
Nearly twenty years ago, RJR MacDonald (RJ Reynolds subsidiary in Canada at the time) illegally flooded Canada with hundreds of millions of packs of contraband cigarettes as a strategy to convince the Canadian government to reduce cigarette taxes.
Okay Bill....... let me see if I have this right..... the tobacco black market is an evil plot by big bad tobacco companies to lower the tax rates on tobacco, and not a market response to insanely high tax rates. The ones that you fully support. Glad you set us all straight on that. I'm happy you warned us all about....... this dastardly evil plot......... I'm sure the folks in Canada will be happy to hear that. No doubt the problems they are having with the 50% black market share on cigarettes will now disappear that the truth is out.
Seriously though, I don't mean to be so cynical, but it is quite a tall tail you're spinning and I just...... couldn't help myself. It's amazing you are falling back on the evil plot by tobacco company syndrome. I thought we were over that nonsense. Oh, and lest I forget, it's really to bad RJR wasn't successful in their attempt to lower taxes in Canada. The country would likely not be in the mess they are today.
The problem of course is that you have failed to appreciate the amount of resentment tobacco users have when it comes to taxes. It's a real blind spot. Every tobacco user I have known, and that's a lot, have hated the taxes being forced on us. The high taxes have created a ready market with folks perfectly willing to go to the black market to get the goods.
Not to worry, just a slight bump in the road. I'm sure in the morning everything will be fine.
Seriously though, I don't mean to be so cynical, but it is quite a tall tail you're spinning and I just...... couldn't help myself. It's amazing you are falling back on the evil plot by tobacco company syndrome. I thought we were over that nonsense. Oh, and lest I forget, it's really to bad RJR wasn't successful in their attempt to lower taxes in Canada. The country would likely not be in the mess they are today.
The problem of course is that you have failed to appreciate the amount of resentment tobacco users have when it comes to taxes. It's a real blind spot. Every tobacco user I have known, and that's a lot, have hated the taxes being forced on us. The high taxes have created a ready market with folks perfectly willing to go to the black market to get the goods.
Not to worry, just a slight bump in the road. I'm sure in the morning everything will be fine.
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I've read that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" more than once in this forum. It has been quoted to me as a reason to minimize criticism of Bill Godshall, for example. If you accept that logic, I'd say my "friend" is the tobacco companies if "their legislative goal is to repeal recently enacted tax increases and to prevent additional tax increases." They've got my vote on that. Smokers have been singled out, reviled, and overtaxed to death. If people don't realize that these high taxes foster the black market far more than they foster "quitting smoking" they're deluded.
Don't trust the tobacco companies because they lie. Thank goodness all other industries are honest!
Lawmakers Propose Bill to Stop Smuggled Tobacco Trade - Tobacco - Convenience Store News
"The legislation would collect hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue, decrease the consumption of tobacco, and combat criminals and terrorists who profit from the illegal trade of tobacco." emphasis mine
Our protector Sen. Frank R. Lautenberg (D-NJ) as well as .... Durbin (D-IL) and Rep. Lloyd Doggett (D-TX) introduced the STOP Act.
Of course, what article would be complete without. "Added Durbin, "This bill will help us crack down on tobacco smuggling and keep black market cigarettes out of the hands of kids...."".
Lawmakers Propose Bill to Stop Smuggled Tobacco Trade - Tobacco - Convenience Store News
"The legislation would collect hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue, decrease the consumption of tobacco, and combat criminals and terrorists who profit from the illegal trade of tobacco." emphasis mine
Our protector Sen. Frank R. Lautenberg (D-NJ) as well as .... Durbin (D-IL) and Rep. Lloyd Doggett (D-TX) introduced the STOP Act.
Of course, what article would be complete without. "Added Durbin, "This bill will help us crack down on tobacco smuggling and keep black market cigarettes out of the hands of kids...."".
I'm guessing that this "high tech" marking system will be totally free to tobacco companies, so that there will be no increased costs to pass on to the consumer, right? <- Sarcasm alert.
Because let's face it: Every time the price of legal tobacco is raised, the sales of illegal tobacco go up.
Thanks for bringing this up. I hadn't heard about this bill.
Most of the black market in the US is made up of cigarettes being smuggled into the US from cigarettes made for other countries, or cigarettes bought in low tax states, then transported and sold in high tax states. NY is notorious for that one. Not so in Canada where black market cigarettes are completely off the grid. They have never been registered and have no stamps to trace.
This bill would simple push the US black market towards what is happening in Canada.
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Stubby wrote:
Please cite which of my statements that you consider a "tall tail", as I don't see anything that is inaccurate. There are many different types of contraband tobacco that have different causes and contributory factors.
For the past 25 years I've been exposing and criticizing inaccurate and misleading information about tobacco products, consumers, companies and policies (regardless of the source of the inaccurate or misleading information).
When CTFK/ACS/AHA/ALA make misleading or false claims, I call them on it. When tobacco companies make misleading or false claims, I call them on it. When researchers make misleading or false claims, I call them on it. And when news reporters make misleading or false claims, I call them on it.
Most public policy advocates cherry pick selective data, exaggerate, spin and misrepresent evidence in an attempt to convince elected officials, the news media and the public to agree with their viewpoint.
Please cite which of my statements that you consider a "tall tail", as I don't see anything that is inaccurate. There are many different types of contraband tobacco that have different causes and contributory factors.
For the past 25 years I've been exposing and criticizing inaccurate and misleading information about tobacco products, consumers, companies and policies (regardless of the source of the inaccurate or misleading information).
When CTFK/ACS/AHA/ALA make misleading or false claims, I call them on it. When tobacco companies make misleading or false claims, I call them on it. When researchers make misleading or false claims, I call them on it. And when news reporters make misleading or false claims, I call them on it.
Most public policy advocates cherry pick selective data, exaggerate, spin and misrepresent evidence in an attempt to convince elected officials, the news media and the public to agree with their viewpoint.
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Vocalek wrote:
The chief problem I have with the STOP Act legislation (HR 3186 & S 1706) is that it applies to all tobacco products (although it may or may not apply to e-cigarettes, as I haven't been able to locate the specific definition of tobacco products it relies upon).
The legislation would be better and easier to enact (IMO) if it only applied to cigarettes (as cigarette constitute the vast majority of smuggled tobacco products and profits, although I suspect that interstate smuggling of smokeless tobacco has increased in states where tax rates have been sharply increased).
The legislation also would be far less expensive for cigarette companies to comply with (than for other less commonly used tobacco products), and therefore would increase costs of OTP more than cigarettes.
Also please note that Lloyd Doggett has been introducing this legislation every session of Congress for the past decade.
The chief problem I have with the STOP Act legislation (HR 3186 & S 1706) is that it applies to all tobacco products (although it may or may not apply to e-cigarettes, as I haven't been able to locate the specific definition of tobacco products it relies upon).
The legislation would be better and easier to enact (IMO) if it only applied to cigarettes (as cigarette constitute the vast majority of smuggled tobacco products and profits, although I suspect that interstate smuggling of smokeless tobacco has increased in states where tax rates have been sharply increased).
The legislation also would be far less expensive for cigarette companies to comply with (than for other less commonly used tobacco products), and therefore would increase costs of OTP more than cigarettes.
Also please note that Lloyd Doggett has been introducing this legislation every session of Congress for the past decade.
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Bill, if you have evidence that tobacco companies are complicit in the sale of contraband tobacco you really should take that evidence to your state's Attorney General.
Regardless if "Big Tobacco" is part of the contraband market or not, when taxes on ANY product exceed 50% of the market price (greater than 100% of wholesale cost) further increases can only be said to increase the profitability of black market products that are not regulated to prevent sales to children. It doesn't really even matter who is "behind" the conspiracy, it is still discriminating against people who are unable or unwilling to stop using a legal product.
Regardless if "Big Tobacco" is part of the contraband market or not, when taxes on ANY product exceed 50% of the market price (greater than 100% of wholesale cost) further increases can only be said to increase the profitability of black market products that are not regulated to prevent sales to children. It doesn't really even matter who is "behind" the conspiracy, it is still discriminating against people who are unable or unwilling to stop using a legal product.
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