Proposed FDA Rules

[ScottP]

If the FDA didn't do this, they would not be doing their job.

I'm glad they are finally doing it. I would pay twice as much for eliquid knowing that it was made to a certain standard.

Guidelines are needed for all this stuff, and the people who are cooking it up in their bathtub will either have to get up to standards or go under.

This industry is getting big, and needs standards.

Do you seriously think people are "cooking it up in their bathtub"? Seriously are you that dense?

I'm sure their will be more than a few choices, and it is the FDA's responsability to do this.

I guess this answers my question. You have way too much dependence on the government. It is categorically NOT their responsibly our even their right to tell me what flavors of ANYTHING that I should be allowed to enjoy. If you want to take orders from the government, please report to your nearest Army or Marine Corp recruitment facility. They will be happy to tell you what to do, while you learn what it means to defend the rights of others. Hoorah.

 

[Mowgli]

 

[bcalvanese]

Do you seriously think people are "cooking it up in their bathtub"? Seriously are you that dense?.

uhhhh... yeah. And you're dense if you think that some are not.

I guess this answers my question. You have way too much dependence on the government. It is categorically NOT their responsibly our even their right to tell me what flavors of ANYTHING that I should be allowed to enjoy. If you want to take orders from the government, please report to your nearest Army or Marine Corp recruitment facility. They will be happy to tell you what to do, while you learn what it means to defend the rights of others. Hoorah.

Yeah, and Oswald didn't shoot Kennedy either. It was the government guy in the grassy knoll.

bla bla bla bla bla.

I spent 6 years in teh military, and I'm glad I live in a Country that wants to make things that we consume safe.

But hey... I'm just an american, and this is MHO.

 

[bcalvanese]

Very insightfull.

It's going to be a bumpy road, but I think it will be better in the long run.

 

[bcalvanese]

I also think the way to go here is science... science... science, and more science.

 

[SnesGuy]

I'm Anti big government in general. Everything is always bullcrap and money.
The government takes 25% of my check. Yet California and the federal government are in debt? Really?
all the federal government should be doing is handling foreign policy.

When it comes down to it I can use off the shelf parts and make my own vaporizer and juice. The only thing that may be hard to get is nic concentrate, but as I'm down to 6mg and its impossible to stop everything coming into customs. Multiple small quantity orders.

They can regulate hardware as much as they want, telling me I flat out can't do something that is nobody elses business is un american and there's really no way they could enforce it. I'll just stealth vape outside of the house. (in regards to possible laws/regulations that may happen in the far off future.)

 

[ScottP]

Yeah, and Oswald didn't shoot Kennedy either. It was the government guy in the grassy knoll.

Who said anything about Oswald and Kennedy? I guess that was a failed attempt at deflection. /shrug

I spent 6 years in teh military, and I'm glad I live in a Country that wants to make things that we consume safe.

If I thought the FDA cared for safety I'd be all for it. However they continue allow people to DIE from drugs such as Chantix, Oxycontin/Oxycodone and sit back collecting their paychecks. Have you seen the FDA's list of allowable contaminates in food? If you think they care about safety, think again.

 

[sky4it]

About what Doctor Gilbert Ross said:

The Good: He said it will take 3-4 years for the regs to take effect although he did not explain why. (or at least I thought he did.)

The Bad: He said something to the effect that ecig retailers will have to lie to tell the truth. Its kind of a brain teaser but its about retailers not being able to tout ecigs as safe, so they will have to spin other things. (Of course this tells you the Doc's feelings too about ecigs vs stinkies.) How far has civilization advanced in 25 years? !!!!!!

This guy is worth while listening too

 

[zanthious]

I also think the way to go here is science... science... science, and more science.

yes this seems to be working with ObamaCare.. The government makes everything easy and affordable!!

All this does is raise the price, Although i will give you the this.... I know people who pull the FDA isnt touching it soo it cant be healthy bit.

 

[bcalvanese]

Who said anything about Oswald and Kennedy? I guess that was a failed attempt at deflection. /shrug.

Because it seems like you think this is some sort of government plot.

If I thought the FDA cared for safety I'd be all for it. However they continue allow people to DIE from drugs such as Chantix, Oxycontin/Oxycodone and sit back collecting their paychecks. Have you seen the FDA's list of allowable contaminates in food? If you think they care about safety, think again.

Food and Drug Administration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing, and whatever the outcome, we are all going to have to deal with it in some one way or another.

 

[ykalon]

Funny. As soon as something is not federaly regulated ie e-juice, it's always some nasty guy cooking stuff in his bathtub or in a dark dirty basement somewhere, selling it to the crowd with no conscience.

There are MANY manufacturers out there making their juice with PRIDE & HONOUR perfectly fine, without Big Brother's regulationstick up their a...

 

[frosting]

You'd have to be a naive bird of a pretty feather to believe that these FDA regulations are not at all influenced by Big Pharma & Big Tobacco. Big Tobacco doesn't want competition, Big Pharma is losing profits to those who have successfully stopped smoking without their gum, patches, and crazy pills.

If these regulations came from genuinely neutral grounds, that would be one thing. The thing is this is only the beginning and the more I think about that, the more I have to wonder what's next. I do see the FDA being sued by some of the larger Mom & Pop's who would have to apply every mod, drip tip, atomizer coil for acceptance through the FDA that is well known to go slower than a snail's pace in approval where we have thousands of things to be approved. There has to be a better way, but I get the sense it's gonna be a fight tooth and nail for that better way. Of course I hope I'm wrong here.

 

[CabinetGuyScott]

It's worth pointing out that FDA regulations (or anything else similar) has no relation whatsoever to ecig safety, public safety, public health, protecting children, or anything else like that. It's all about money and nothing else.

The smoking economy is worth over $1 trillion a year and will eventually take a massive hit from ecigs. How much is just a guess, but given time (20 or 30 years perhaps) then a 60% reduction in the smoking economy is very likely.

What is the smoking economy? It's all the funds generated by smoking and all the people who depend on that money. The list is very long, and everyone in the chain has a financial interest in protecting smoking - otherwise their jobs disappear or they take big pay cuts. Everyone from State Attorneys General to 'public health' groups such as cancer orgs depends on smoking. National governments, State economies, and city budgets depend on the tax revenues to balance the books. The States are in the worst position of all as they depend on the immense MSA payments to stave off bankruptcy - and those payments are already starting to slide (way ahead of the expected date these payments would react to shrinking cigarette sales caused by growing ecig sales).

All laws banning ecigs, all regulations restricting ecigs, all legislation affecting ecigs, and all voices heard speaking against ecigs are created by or dependent on the smoking economy. Public health is irrelevant, it's all about the money, has always been about the money, and will always be about the money.

Please don't be fooled into thinking that health is important - nothing is of less importance to regulators than your health. Please don't be fooled into thinking that science and evidence are important - these things are completely irrelevant to legislators. All they are concerned with is their mortgage, and the smoking economy pays that. Smoking and pharma are protected, and that's all there is to it.

You need to vote for someone who will do something about it - or just suck it up, it's what you voted for.

The pharmaceutical industry doesn't care about smoking cessation drugs except as an indicator to how their real smoking-related markets will react.

Yes, NRTs and psychoactive drugs for smoking cessation are a ~$5 billion annual global market, but this is chump change compared to the main channels: (1) sick smoker treatment drugs and (2) the boost to general drug sales caused by smokers. Smoking creates at least 10% of pharma's gross income and it could even be as high as 15% or 20%.

1. The sick smoker drugs are immensely profitable as a near-monopoly situation exists: chemotherapy drugs, COPD drugs, cardiac drugs, vascular drugs etc. All these will take a 60% hit eventually although there is a long timelag in this market.

2. There is an enormous boost to general drug sales caused by smokers: diabetes, cholesterol, bronchitis and blood pressure drugs are examples. This is because a smoker is >40% more likely to be diabetic, and the same applies to many other conditions that drugs can be sold to treat. These conditions often can't be cured while continuing to smoke so the customers are permanent. Smokers will always need inhalers, diabetes meds etc. This market reacts faster than for example the chemotherapy drugs market.

In addition there are other income channels such as OTC meds that are boosted by smoking.

These huge income channels (possibly worth $200bn a year), plus the close integration of pharma with the legislative and regulatory systems, are the reasons why pharma is the strongest and most effective opponent of THR products such as ecigs. It's why they fund a range of front groups to promote their agenda: ban/restrict ecigs, in order to protect their income by protecting smoking. It's why cancer 'health' orgs are in the strange position of protecting and promoting cancer by helping to block ecigs - these groups are controlled by pharma. They pay the CEO $1m a year to keep the faith, so don't expect any honest 'cancer health' orgs anytime soon. They all need to protect smoking, it's the gravy train that pays all their mortgages.

[edit]
And I suppose it's worth adding that the reason why this is allowed is because anything connected to smoking is essentially a free-fire zone: smokers are considered already dead or addicts without rights. Industries can profit from smokers or restrict smokers in ways that would be impossible in other market areas. Smokers are basically considered to be an already-dead tax and profit source. Smokers have no rights, and ex-smokers have no rights either.

Bumping for last page readers!

(Credit to Mowgli for this great idea )

 

[Dan_The_Viking]

uhhhh... yeah. And you're dense if you think that some are not.

I spent 6 years in teh military, and I'm glad I live in a Country that wants to make things that we consume safe.

But hey... I'm just an american, and this is MHO.

I don't understand what gives the FDA authority to decide what is safe and what is not. How can they possibly know? Are they decendents of the Almighty God?

 

[Dan_The_Viking]

You'd have to be a naive bird of a pretty feather to believe that these FDA regulations are not at all influenced by Big Pharma & Big Tobacco. Big Tobacco doesn't want competition, Big Pharma is losing profits to those who have successfully stopped smoking without their gum, patches, and crazy pills.

If these regulations came from genuinely neutral grounds, that would be one thing. The thing is this is only the beginning and the more I think about that, the more I have to wonder what's next. I do see the FDA being sued by some of the larger Mom & Pop's who would have to apply every mod, drip tip, atomizer coil for acceptance through the FDA that is well known to go slower than a snail's pace in approval where we have thousands of things to be approved. There has to be a better way, but I get the sense it's gonna be a fight tooth and nail for that better way. Of course I hope I'm wrong here.

Your suggesting the FDA, a department of our divine, loving and caring government would have alternative motives? No chance!

 

[tj99959]

Okay, so just to make this clear: the FDA is using this rule to 'open the door' for vaping regulations. They will NOT stop with warning labels and prohibitions to minors. Don't be fooled.

Moving on, I've had a quick look at the unpublished PDF of the proposed rules, and thought I'd share this:

"To deem products that meet the definition of "tobacco product" under the law except accessories of a proposed deemed tobacco product and subject them to the tobacco control authorities in the FD&C Act"

From: https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2014-09491.pdf

The wording used here is really murky, so I'll delve deeper and see what I can find. Reading through the rest of the PDF shows the wording throughout, plus a definition of 'accessories' as:

"FDA considers accessories of proposed deemed products to be those items that are not included as part of a finished tobacco product or intended or expected to be used by consumers in the consumption of a tobacco product, and we expect that they will not have a significant impact on the public health. In addition, FDA considers accessories to be those items that may be used in the storage or personal possession of a proposed deemed product."

Those keywords are going to see a lot of play, "finished tobacco product" especially. Further down they give a formal definition of 'tobacco product':

"Section 201(rr) of the FD&C Act (21 U.S.C. 321(rr)), as amended by the Tobacco Control Act, defines the term "tobacco product" to mean "any product made or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption, including any component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product (except for raw materials other than tobacco used in manufacturing a component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product)."1 Products that meet the statutory definition
of "tobacco products" can include currently marketed products such as certain dissolvables, gels, hookah tobacco, electronic cigarettes, cigars, and pipe tobacco."

Now there are two things that I can see here. One: a more firm definition that encompasses anything used for the actual act of vaping into the rule, such as mods, toppers, and drip tips; and Two: A gaping loophole for DIY.



Anyone else find anything interesting?

There, fixed that for ya

In other words "tobacco products" can mean anything the FDA wants it to.

 

[Mowgli]

CASAA: CASAA Assessment of FDA Deeming Regulation, April 25, 2014

 

[jimivapr]

The good side of FDA regulation is that yes there will be standards and yes those who cannot get up to standards (or pay the large FDA filing fees) will go under, but would you be willing to lose your ability to choose for that benefit? Would you be OK with choosing from only menthol flavored e-juice and at nicotine level no greater than 3 mg/mL? Worse yet, would you be ok with the FDA banning all forms of e-cigarettes (except Blu, Njoy, etc.) because the FDA says they are dangerous?

I'm not against higher standards for the e-juice companies, I just don't think it should come from the FDA.

If standards don't come from the FDA, who would you like to see them come from?



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[CassiusCloud]

In this i would much rather it be each state setting their own standards,Rather than one entity that right now is clueless to what it is setting standards for..
Throw 50 pennies in the air ,when they land some will be heads and some will be tails and some may just end up on their side..
I like those odds of survival better than just flipping a two headed quarter.
States can influence each other ,and people of those states can influence states..

It's way harder to reverse something federal than it is state.

 

[EddardinWinter]

Every liquid you enjoy....every one....must apply to be approved to be sold. Do you know how many we are guaranteed to be permitted to buy?

Zero.



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