Proposed rule on e-cigs being reviewed by OMB

[Uncle Willie]

I love how they increased student loan percentage rates and removed food stamps from people who need them to feed kids, but they can afford to fork over the billions of dollars that will be necessary to get involved and saves us all from harm.

Food stamp reduction was simply the temporary increase enacted during the Bush created recession .. all recipients had been fully aware that it was temporary .... and 96% of that money goes to the elderly, disabled, etc ..

The cost of what the FDA may or may not do will be paid by fees and certifications that will be paid by vendors ..

 

[flowerpots]

Food stamp reduction was simply the temporary increase enacted during the Bush created recession .. all recipients had been fully aware that it was temporary .... and 96% of that money goes to the elderly, disabled, etc ..

The cost of what the FDA may or may not do will be paid by fees and certifications that will be paid by vendors ..

I highly doubt most recipients were aware of the reason(s) for their benefits being granted and/or taken away, only that they were taken. Some recipients i.e. of disaster relief would be aware of the temporary nature of their benefits - SNAP programees would not (would be my guess). Actually, most recipients have a qualifying dependent in the home, although many are also disabled and/or over 60. Disaster relief beneficiaries and benefits awarded during the Bush Administration are not the only participants affected (i.e. now disqualified).

SNAP Community Characteristics

The government will have to pay for the oversight with the agency and it's subdivisions that will be policing the e-cig industry. That will cost money. In addition, they will have to pay for grants for testing of the e-cig products in order to have a basis to regulate in the first place. The price vendors pay via fees and certifications will be a drop in the bucket compared to all of this, but sadly enough, it will be what drives many small business owners out of the industry. In return, we will continually help to fund the whole thing through taxes.

 

[vapeman]

I'll knock free market capitalism gone bad. Big government = bad. Big business propped up by big government = even worse. If and when the regulations start pouring in, I think it'll be obvious who is to blame... Big tobacco lobbyists and state governments putting pressure on the Fed in order to protect their revenues. Don't worry, I'm sure Altria and RJ Reynolds will have all their ducks in a row. They just don't like the idea of their wealth eroding into the hands of the smaller guys. Too bad we can't fight the regulations off. All those redirected tobacco revenues and health care savings would be a huge boost to the economy if they went into the hands of the working class.

 

[retired1]

Lets keep it on topic please. This has nothing to do with other federal programs.

 

[soba1]

This will be held up in the courts another injunction will be filed.

 

[soba1]

I'll knock free market capitalism gone bad. Big government = bad. Big business propped up by big government = even worse. If and when the regulations start pouring in, I think it'll be obvious who is to blame... Big tobacco lobbyists and state governments putting pressure on the Fed in order to protect their revenues. Don't worry, I'm sure Altria and RJ Reynolds will have all their ducks in a row. They just don't like the idea of their wealth eroding into the hands of the smaller guys. Too bad we can't fight the regulations off. All those redirected tobacco revenues and health care savings would be a huge boost to the economy if they went into the hands of the working class.

U can always fight regulations off.....................

 

[hlk]

I'm sure there will be plenty of lawsuits headed the FDA's way.
If I was in the biz, I would contribute in a class action suit in a heartbeat.
(Hell maybe as a vaper even)

It's the online and B&M's that collectively DO wield a big stick. The attorneys are ready for battle..
So we ain't gonna take it lying down.

 

[Uncle Willie]

I'm sure there will be plenty of lawsuits headed the FDA's way.
If I was in the biz, I would contribute in a class action suit in a heartbeat.
(Hell maybe as a vaper even)

It's the online and B&M's that collectively DO wield a big stick. The attorneys are ready for battle..
So we ain't gonna take it lying down.

I honestly hope you are right .. however, the inaction from the core of the industry (privately owned vendors) as it relates to forming a strong trade organization and a lobby arm during the last few years seems to indicate the unwillingness to step up in any meaningful way ..

The best way to fight anything of this sort is at the beginning, not at the end .. and since there has been plenty of lead time over the last few years, and vendors knew it was coming, they could have possibly written many of the possible rules/regs themselves, had they taken the initiative .. unfortunately, this industry is fragmented and tends to lean toward an every business for itself philosophy ..

Then, when and if the endgame comes down, these same privately owned Vendors have the most to lose .. because NJOY / BLU and BT will help draft the ultimate fate ..

 

[hlk]

I honestly hope you are right .. however, the inaction from the core of the industry (privately owned vendors) as it relates to forming a strong trade organization and a lobby arm during the last few years seems to indicate the unwillingness to step up in any meaningful way ..

The best way to fight anything of this sort is at the beginning, not at the end .. and since there has been plenty of lead time over the last few years, and vendors knew it was coming, they could have possibly written many of the possible rules/regs themselves, had they taken the initiative .. unfortunately, this industry is fragmented and tends to lean toward an every business for itself philosophy ..

Then, when and if the endgame comes down, these same privately owned Vendors have the most to lose .. because NJOY / BLU and BT will help draft the ultimate fate ..

I agree UW.. Maybe too late, but there are things going on behind the scenes I believe.

 

[Petrodus]

What I find very interesting is
No One has "Leaked" anything that will be on
the FDA's proposed regulations.

 

[Technohydra]

I honestly don't think the FDA has the first clue what to do about this industry, because there is no good way to .... the ruling around to make it constitutional...there are far too many grey areas here, and the product is far enough removed from tobacco that it is difficult to find a way to tack on those nasty regs in a way that will be supported by the US Supreme Court. The worst I am actually expecting is an ID requirement, like sessation products, right to inspect production facilities, requirement of traceability of components, requirement of traceability of products, requirement for product QA reporting, requirement for ingredient labeling...most of these things are common sense. I don't actually see how the FDA can expect to classify e-liquids as a tobacco product in a way that will hold up in court; that would be like considering a purple shirt a sea urchin product...I don't know, but I am one of those that thinks that much ado is being made over what will likely be not that bad, and may only hit the pre-filled carto market anyways. Think about it...It can't be made illegal to purchase pure nicotine without deeming it a controlled substance of a type that would make cigarettes require a prescription...and if bars can buy raw ingredients and make you a drink from them, I would think the same mentality would apply, mainly because the industry could argue that there is a legal precedent in court.

My personal opinion, unless you are in your heart of hearts 100% committed to standing up loudly, proudly, and forcefully when the time comes, this is a non-issue anyways. I have long since grown tired of debating politics with people that wouldn't open the door and walk across the street to have a shot at changing things. So I won't debate anymore, my piece has been said. But when the curtain comes up, I will be on the field to fight, bleed, and die for our rights, and I mean that in the most literal (legal) terms possible. To long has the public said and said and said...while not doing. No more. No .......ed more. I have stopped pissing myself waiting for someone else to tell me how I have to suffer or die. It's my show now. And your show. All of our .......ed shows! Get up, stop worrying and fight.

Out.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

...The worst I am actually expecting is an ID requirement, like sessation products, right to inspect production facilities, requirement of traceability of components, requirement of traceability of products, requirement for product QA reporting, requirement for ingredient labeling...most of these things are common sense...

Sampling of ejuice for unhealthy components by such as the Consumer Products Safety Commission might seem less onerous than inspections, documentation and regulating production processes. The ejuice product is 'where the rubber meets the road.'

 

[Technohydra]

That's the way it works in every other industry that involves selling a consumable product. I fail to see how all of those legal precedents could not be used in this case to protect e-juices. As for the online sales ban theory, I call bull..... If you can buy a gun online, I'm sure there will be a way to protect the sale of e-juices. Like I said, the prefilled carts might be in trouble, but I am having a hard time stacking up a legal arguement that would survive an injuction in the SC that would ban or control the liquids...especially since the vendors could simply sell the nic base and the flavored juice as seperate items, allowing the user to 'spice' as they see fit. or we would have to buy and formulate the right nic level for our bases, and buy the flavored unleaded juices from the vendors...that might even be a net win, as the profits would be about the same, and the control would shift to the user on the nic level. It's basically the same thing as selling flavoring mixes for cooking and baking at that point...

 

[Uncle Willie]

The worst I am actually expecting is an ID requirement, like sessation products, right to inspect production facilities, requirement of traceability of components, requirement of traceability of products, requirement for product QA reporting, requirement for ingredient labeling...most of these things are common sense. I don't actually see how the FDA can expect to classify e-liquids as a tobacco product in a way that will hold up in court

That, in and of itself, would effectively wound, if not kill, a good part of the industry ..

States will have the final word on this issue .. the FDA will merely give the States what they need to force compliance ..

The attorneys general of 41 states have asked the FDA for regulation .. why do you suppose that is .. ??

Utah, North Dakota, Arkansas and New Jersey, as well as the District of Columbia, already include e-cigarettes in indoor smoking bans. California, Connecticut and Massachusetts are considering similar legislation. Nine states classify e-cigarettes as a tobacco product already. California has restricted online advertising for e-cigarettes.

The FDA is not even really needed in these type scenarios ..

 

[Cool_Breeze]

25/.024 = 1041.6666666666666666666666666667

 

[Cool_Breeze]

...The attorneys general of 41 states have asked the FDA for regulation .. why do you suppose that is .. ?? ...

...because those states don't want the responsibility and costs of deciding and enforcing the matter.

 

[jstaubin]

deleted due to error

 

[vapeman]

Getting to the purple is to sea urchin analogy. I agree that eliquid should not be taxed as a tobacco product. However the precedent is there. Think of other controlled substances. Heroine is Schedule I. However Dilaudid and morphine are available by prescription. Not all that different pharmacologically aside from dosages. Blow is Schedule I. Not far off from prescription lidocaine or even OTC benzocaine. So I don't think that the FDA is above banning or regulating substances in the purest forms. On top of that, pure nicotine is a dangerous substance. You don't even want to get that on your hands, or worse, have any children ingesting it. So its a question of how smart the regulations are. Ingredient listing requirements or maximum nicotine levels... fine... bring it on. I just don't have that much trust in the FDA. Something tells me they'll regulate everything just enough to slow down the erosion of big tobacco and associated tax revenues until they can get their foothold on the e-cig market. I fear an online sales ban might be their approach to this. It is time we all pull together and fight against this. Better late than never.

 

[Uncle Willie]

...because those states don't want the responsibility and costs of deciding and enforcing the matter.

or to gain the ability to tax based on tobacco product without having to enact their own separate legislation ..

The only point I'm making is the whole issue could easily be a States rights issue .. which does not really require the FDA .. IOW, the 41 states that have asked the FDA for regulation could enact their own in the absence of Federal guidelines .. and likely have an outline already of what that would look like sans FDA ..

 

[Uncle Willie]

Getting to the purple is to sea urchin analogy. I agree that eliquid should not be taxed as a tobacco product. However the precedent is there. Think of other controlled substances. Heroine is Schedule I. However Dilaudid and morphine are available by prescription. Not all that different pharmacologically aside from dosages. Blow is Schedule I. Not far off from prescription lidocaine or even OTC benzocaine. So I don't think that the FDA is above banning or regulating substances in the purest forms. On top of that, pure nicotine is a dangerous substance. You don't even want to get that on your hands, or worse, have any children ingesting it. So its a question of how smart the regulations are. Ingredient listing requirements or maximum nicotine levels... fine... bring it on. I just don't have that much trust in the FDA. Something tells me they'll regulate everything just enough to slow down the erosion of big tobacco and associated tax revenues until they can get their foothold on the e-cig market. I fear an online sales ban might be their approach to this. It is time we all pull together and fight against this. Better late than never.

Sudafed is by script only in Oregon and Mississippi, parts of Missouri as well .. although some will think this is an extreme example, it's States Rights .. no Federal guide line needed ..