FDA reiterates intent to propose "deeming" regulation for e-cigs and other unregulated tobacco products
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If this is to be regulated under "tobacco products", wouldn't that only effect the nicotine. We should still be able to get supplies, pv's, nic-free liquid, tanks, etc. There's no tax/regulation on rolling papers, cigarette rollers, filters, pipes etc. Of course you have to be 18 to purchase but the FDA has no hand in the sale or distribution of these things.
If I wanted I can go to many places/stores/gas stations/headshops and buy legal supplies for things that are illegal, even though they are marketed as "for tobacco use".
The am mostly just worried about nic! I'm not sure if I can get by on nic-free liquid. I think 50% of my smoking problem was the nic and the other 50% was the act of smoking something.
My plan is to stock up on lower nic level liquid and have higher nic for when I absolutely need it and just ween myself off of it. May be easier said than done. Of course that would most likely only be the case if these deeming regulations do turn out to be "demon" regulations.
If I wanted I can go to many places/stores/gas stations/headshops and buy legal supplies for things that are illegal, even though they are marketed as "for tobacco use".
The am mostly just worried about nic! I'm not sure if I can get by on nic-free liquid. I think 50% of my smoking problem was the nic and the other 50% was the act of smoking something.
My plan is to stock up on lower nic level liquid and have higher nic for when I absolutely need it and just ween myself off of it. May be easier said than done. Of course that would most likely only be the case if these deeming regulations do turn out to be "demon" regulations.
It will be interesting just what these "Workarounds" may be.
I know a Mom & Pop Store that got Busted for Creatively reselling Cigarettes from Promotional Packs. It cost them a Small Fortune in Fines, Penalties and Lose of Income.
As long as the Internet remains Free ... I have total faith in the ECF network
to find and share the "Workarounds"
Of course ...
It's only a matter of time before the Government takes full charge of the Internet.
You can NOT control thought unless you control the Internet.
It will be marketed to the sheep ... their freedoms were stolen
in order to protect us !!
Those who think Not ...
Make a note in your diary and an electronic reminder
to read the entry again ... in lets just say at the end of
"Four More Years"
The latter is true as far as I know.
The court suggested that the FDA could regulate electronic cigarettes as a tobacco product.
In order to do that, the FDA would need to officially declare them to be tobacco products, which is what the Demon Regulations will do.
How do other nicotine delivery systems get classified? I can easily mail order patches and gum, and have only to show a photo ID when I buy them in a store. I don't believe they are taxed like cigarettes but I may be wrong.
The patches and gum are classified as FDA-approved drug delivery devices.
And the FDA previously tried to ban electronic cigarettes by claiming they were unapproved drug delivery devices.
What is the likelihood that after the FDA announces "whatever they plan to do" in april, that another lawsuit will be filed by one of the large manufacturers like last time? Would that delay any action they could take while it was in the legal system?
Im assuming the case would at least merit being heard since applying current tobacco regulation to ecigs seems to be a rather large stretch the way they are currently written.
Im assuming the case would at least merit being heard since applying current tobacco regulation to ecigs seems to be a rather large stretch the way they are currently written.
Bill Godshall has indicated in the past that if the FDA issues "deeming" regulations, there are people prepared to file lawsuits...
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...acco-products-released-today.html#post4790722
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ata-misrepresenting-evidence.html#post6982918
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-approves-deeming-regulation.html#post5785843
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...kes-new-report-press-release.html#post6857867
No further details have been made available.
Wow thanks DC for the links
Your either better at searching than me or you had those handy. Im hopeful that if all other attempts fail to sway them prior to april that that course of action might at very least delay putting the regulation in place.
Unfortunately, I do not agree with Vape Nerd and jkos (but I certainly do hope they are right). I think there are quite a few DIYers out there. Why else would all these vendors be selling CONCENTRATES? I truly believe that if the FDA issues regulations, it will include nicotine.
Seems most likely that nicotine sales will hit a wall. At least they are not threatening to outlaw anything that 'looks like' a cigar or cig, as Russia is doing.
This is where companies like Holi Smokes appear to be seeing how the winds are going, substituting what George calls herbal flavors for nicotine.
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I'm not scared yet. I guess, it would help to see the deeming regulations to get that fear thing going on for me.
Unless someone has inside information they aren't sharing, I don't see concern for outright banning which equals no possible way to obtain eCig products / liquid nicotine.
That some parts of the eCig industry might be regulated out of existence seems possible, but not entirely plausible. All the items mentioned in the first paragraph of the FDA Tobacco Regulation piece are widely available. For the fun of it, I just did a google search on "cigarettes online" and only got 27 million hits. Cartons of smokes delivered to you for $55 (includes shipping). Go to a brick and mortar store today and pay $75 for the same thing. I'm guessing I could do a google search on a whole bunch of things that are 'strictly regulated' (or kinda sorta regulated) and find it not to difficult to get many of those items delivered right to my door.
My big concern remains flavored eLiquid. That I can see being strictly regulated where the many vendors in the current market would certainly be scared off to try workarounds in the immediate term. But I see that as a losing fight for anyone (regulators) who cares to have that fight over the next say 50 years. And I mean losing ground every day, month and year from moment something like that is put forth as deeming regulation. I also mean there will be workarounds from day 1 on that. Those workarounds currently exist, but are unnecessary at this time.
To be clear, I think there are other legitimate concerns that might come to fruition, but until the proposals are brought forth, I sometimes feel like I'm on the NRA site and many around me are thinking, and saying, a confiscation of all weapons is forthcoming in the next month or two. Challenging to have reasonable discussions on things when emotion of fear is as prevalent as it currently is.
Unless someone has inside information they aren't sharing, I don't see concern for outright banning which equals no possible way to obtain eCig products / liquid nicotine.
That some parts of the eCig industry might be regulated out of existence seems possible, but not entirely plausible. All the items mentioned in the first paragraph of the FDA Tobacco Regulation piece are widely available. For the fun of it, I just did a google search on "cigarettes online" and only got 27 million hits. Cartons of smokes delivered to you for $55 (includes shipping). Go to a brick and mortar store today and pay $75 for the same thing. I'm guessing I could do a google search on a whole bunch of things that are 'strictly regulated' (or kinda sorta regulated) and find it not to difficult to get many of those items delivered right to my door.
My big concern remains flavored eLiquid. That I can see being strictly regulated where the many vendors in the current market would certainly be scared off to try workarounds in the immediate term. But I see that as a losing fight for anyone (regulators) who cares to have that fight over the next say 50 years. And I mean losing ground every day, month and year from moment something like that is put forth as deeming regulation. I also mean there will be workarounds from day 1 on that. Those workarounds currently exist, but are unnecessary at this time.
To be clear, I think there are other legitimate concerns that might come to fruition, but until the proposals are brought forth, I sometimes feel like I'm on the NRA site and many around me are thinking, and saying, a confiscation of all weapons is forthcoming in the next month or two. Challenging to have reasonable discussions on things when emotion of fear is as prevalent as it currently is.
They can make it so hard and expensive that many people who are NOT already vaping die. It's already hard to learn to vape for quite a few people, but the current cost savings make up for it.
What I'd REALLY like to see is a compromise that gets the FDA their millions of $$ from the big companies but leaves us alone: Go ahead and require multi-million-dollar studies and fees to be able to make a health claim, but leave the rest of the industry unregulated.
Unfortunately, the big guys lobby expensively for making the competition go away. There is a live interview on a British vaping channel about how European pharma companies (that make patches, lozenge, etc) have been lobbying the British MPs to take all actually-useful ecigs off the market WITHIN 21 DAYS of any EU law requiring low nic levels and banning flavorings. 'When our inch comes, take the whole mile IMMEDIATELY.'
So am I panicked about April? No. But I don't want to see a BT-and-BP-funded nationwide celebration of a "Healthy Move" get rolling at that time which will make further restrictions easy to speed up. So I want to see awareness of OUR side spread a lot faster than it is now, so that the intial FDA deeming is met with a public scepticism already in a growth stage.
We have to move beyond treatises and get to punchy examples. Three at least have been proposed recently which I'd like to see spread widely, and I'm trying to figure out how much credit must be given to the brilliant individuals who thought of these when we reiterate them (especially if I or others do so in cartoon(1) form, which makes crediting others ....distracting)
1. Banning/discouraging ecigs is like telling people on the Titanic to stay off the lifeboats because they have not been long-term tested.
2. Banning ecigs is like banning seat belts. People have been injured by seat belts. Worse, the false feeling of safety from seat belts might make people drive more recklessly than otherwise.
That was a European editorial, but if the FDA was the Car and Drug Administration, would they issue public statements like this?:
"Seat belts are not a safe alternative to being ejected from the car and impaled on a tree limb or being shmeared over a 30-yard stretch of pavement."
3. The harm of a lifetime of vaping equals, at worst, 3 additional months of smoking.
While I disagree with the NRA severely on their current stance about having ZERO more increase in background checks, and the assault weapons ban, I also find that the California proposed laws, which to me are a natural extension of "the wave" of current (legitimate) sentiment over those kids, go a lot further in ways that scare me. Having to prove I have insurance for my guns and having to pay so much for ammunition that I couldn't practice much, would have the side-effect of newspapers and the gov't be able to publish my address as being a gun owner and of making it too hard for me to be any good with them. It is not Obama I fear, it is the Brady Bunch.
Right now the WHO is doing a really good job of creating a wave of panic in public servants in Brussels (and apparently Moscow) where they fear that voters will vote them out unless they go along with the tobacco abolitionists. Little things like science are not even remotely important to stampeding politicians, so we need to get momentum going on our pro-THR stampede so that by April or next year or the year after it has enough weight to counter the abolitionists.
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