Propylene Glycol and Lactic Acid

[mattiem]

TRUE TRUE, isn't there danger in drinking COKE.

I agree that there is health concerns in lots of the things we choose to put in our bodies. Some we know about, some we research but are still not sure about and others the answers can't be determined.

In my case, I knew that cigarette smoke was bad for me but I just could not give it up no matter what I tried until I got my first PV. I'm not totally sure about the ingredients in my vape as it applies to my overall health but feel that it has to be better than all the added ingredients in cigarettes. Doing neither would probably in the long run be the healthiest for me but in the meantime I am thrilled, no matter the unknowns, to call myself a non-smoker.

I do want to thank the OP for bringing up this subject as it has given me food for thought. Will it change my mind about vaping??? No, I am sure it won't but Thank you for the info.

 

[enchantedwonder]

Thank you for the interesting info. Questions:
1. What is the downfall of vaping 100% VG?
2. Does it provide the same amount of vapor, throat hit etc?
3. What is a good VG brand?
4. I have a KGO, do you have to switch to a certain Carotmizer?

Thanks so much!!

 

[Riverboat]

Hi. I might be overstepping the boundaries given I'm a new member, and maybe it's already been discussed, but.. PG, when heated produces Lactic Acid. Lactic Acid on your teeth causes rapid decay.


VG as well can causes some serious tooth decay, as it is a carbohydrate and bacteria in the mouth uses carbs to make lactic acid which, as stated before, destroys teeth.


So lesson for the day, I guess is brush your teeth, and swish water alot when vaping.

Come on now, really... VG, Carbs?

 

[kwalka]

Come on now, really... VG, Carbs?

There goes my diet.....

 

[rytzzzy]

I don't even like plain water

 

[sailorman]

Thank you for the interesting info. Questions:
1. What is the downfall of vaping 100% VG?
2. Does it provide the same amount of vapor, throat hit etc?
3. What is a good VG brand?
4. I have a KGO, do you have to switch to a certain Carotmizer?

Thanks so much!!

1. VG mutes flavors somewhat. Also mutes the throat hit from the nicotine. Tends to clog cartomizers faster. Thicker, so doesn't wick as well, which means it doesn't work as well in CE2 type cartomizers.
2. Provides more vapor than PG but lowers throat hit.
3. Alien Visions seems to specialize in 100%VG. Others make it and on request.
4. Not necessarily, depending on what you've been using. Works best in bottom coil Clearomizers, like the CE3 or standard filled cartos like the Boge or Kanger. It will work in top coil CE2 type clearomizers, but you may have to either thin it a little with vodka (which restores some throat hit) or tilt the carto now and then so the coil stays wet. Works fine in tanks, but you may have to enlarge or add extra holes to the cartomizer so it soaks in better. It's quite thick.

 

[sailorman]

At what temperature does PG turn to lactic acid?
The analysis of vapor I've seen shows the presence of PG, not lactic acid or pyruvic(?) acid.
Vaporization is typically done at about 200 degrees plus or minus.
The vapor provided in the analysis was from a standard mini-ecig, so I assume a 3.7 battery and a 3ohm+/- atomizer.

 

[Bullette the Cowdog]

@ sailorman.
Yes I saw that an experiment was done showing that our atomizers with the liquid do not reach the temperature needed to degrade our pg/vg into any harmful substance.
Atomizer without liquid reaches much bigger temps. I think it was an ecf sticky under experiments. Check it out. Gotta go back to work now. Bye

 

[Pelagic]

As far as lactic acid, I didn't think it had anything to do with the temperature, but about how PG is metabolized in the body. To my knowledge it doesn't just instantly turn into lactic acid the minute it's heated and you inhale it. PG is converted once it's in the body into pyruvate which is converted to energy and lactic acid. Much the same as sugar. This happens when you eat/drink PG, so I don't see what it has to do with the heat (unless I'm missing something?).

As to the OP's assertions, I find some of them debatable, but most people seem to just be reading her post and assuming it's fact. I have mentioned some of the issues above but so far no one, including the OP, has responded to or clarified anything. Much of it sounds like unsourced pseudo-science to me. I'm not saying I think PG is 100% healthy, (I don't actually, but that also doesn't mean it isn't vastly less harmful than smoking and shouldn't be vaped), or that none of her statements could be true, just that some of the claims seem not to be based on anything scientifically known, or are leaping to conclusions.

Hope this doesn't sound .....y

 

[Ladypixel]

I remember reading studies about smokers who live in the city and those who live in the country. These are not so easy to find as they are independently funded but very informative. The studies showed that living in the city showed that people living/smoking in a city environment (think pollution) had higher rates of many of the lung related ailments and diseases...

I can't really attribute this to a study, per se, but I grew up in Los Angeles County. When I was 19, I moved out of state for a while into a much less polluted environment, and I also picked up chain smoking. When I moved back about a year later, I stopped chain smoking because of the pollution -- I didn't "need" the extra pack a day.

So, yeah, my personal experience is that people in polluted urban environments are taking in a whole lot of guck that is oddly comparable to smoking.

 

[enchantedwonder]

Sailorman, Awesome info. That should be posted in the Newbie Forum... there is so much to learn and sometimes it is hard to find. Thank you!!!!

 

[Mommabeans]

Those with the question about inhaling vs consuming. Anything you inhale goes into the blood stream. That's how you get oxygen into your blood, and that's how your blood distributes oxygen to all your muscles, bones, organs, etc. It's the reason why you can be blood tested for ........., or any other inhaled drug. Yes, people ingest small non-harmful amounts of lactic acid in their regular diet. But I hardly think anyone has adjusted the lactic acid in their diets down to off set the lactic acid they are inhaling in their e-cig. If you are a heavy, constant vaper, keep in mind that you are increasing the lactic acid in your blood over what you used to get. That doesn't mean you're going to have serious health issues from vaping. BUT, many things can link back and the vaping can contribute. Especially since tooth decay has a link to heart issues. Bacteria getting into the blood stream, etc. Just keep brushing. As to whether or not vaping is causing any aching joints or muscles, IDK. But I personally can certainly draw a direct line from starting this e-cig to having teeth problems more than ever before. And I'm not sure just using mouth wash is the answer since that has sugar in it. A soft bristle tooth brush at every opportunity I think is the best answer.

 

[Mommabeans]

Yes, liver disease in and of it's self can cause Lactic Acidosis. However, Liver disease is not the ONLY reason a person would develop Lactic Acidosis, and Lactic Acidosis will cause liver damage if left untreated. Lactic acid coverts to lactate in the blood. Lactate is broken down in the liver. When the liver can't break it down fast enough to keep up with amount in the blood....ugh, it's a whole process...when this happens then that happens, when that happens then this happens, it's a chain of events that leads to the liver damage as a result of lactic acidosis that was NOT caused by liver damage. Simply said, I guess, lactic acidosis in an already diseased liver just leads to more liver damage. Kind of like, not enough oil in the engine can lead to engine damage as well as too much oil in engine leads to engine damage. That's even a bad analogy I admit.

 

[Mommabeans]

Gee, sorry I didn't respond Sooner! I was busy taking care of my kids, working, you know, that unimportant stuff. I should have known that when you post something to this board, that's the priority. 30 lashes with a wet noodle.

 

[flavorartisans]

Lol even if you vaped 3mL a day of 100% PG, that would only be 50% absorbed, which would be 1.5mL. I wonder how many of you guys freaking out about PG have also sworn off yogurt and beer because they contain lactic acid... (rolls eyes).

If you're worried about PG, then don't vape PG. Simple as that.

I find it hard to believe that 1.5mL of lactic acid over a 24 hour period (even if done every day) would be anywhere near as harmful as the 1+ pack a day of analogs that 3mL of vaping would represent.

This is about harm reduction, not harm elimination. Nothing in life is totally risk free. Even that drive to work every day, you could very well get t-boned by a hummer and die, but you do it anyway. Which is more likely? You die at 80 from PG, or you die at 50 from a heart attack from too much fast food? People need to get their health priorities in order...

 

[enchantedwonder]

When I gave up my final analog last week I was so sore... like flu aching. I have bad arthritis anyways so I wondered if it was rain or..??? I looked at the threads for symptoms from quitting smoking, and because of this thread and advice of others, I had already bumped up the water. It was miserable, but if you go through it if it was due to quitting or starting vaping even more... it only lasted a few days.

Do others find the sore muscles to be a long term problem if they don't slam the water? Good thread, thank you.

 

[Paradox28]

A person can spend their whole life paranoid of everything around them...or realize that from the moment we are born until the day we die, theres no way to avoid the inevitable and no way to shut ourselves away from all the harmful things.

Live life and be happy and while that doesn't mean to be naive..I think this issue is not one to be concerned with.

Lactic acid does not stay in the muscles for long periods. Your body burns it for energy constantly. Muscle soreness comes from muscle damage, not lactic acid being present. The human body doesn't start producing lactic acid(outside of its norm) until its pushed to a level of needing to burn more than fat for energy. When the body starts breaking down carbs for energy is when lactic acid is produced. Strenous exercise is needed for this to happen. This is why athletes train and train and train..so that when they perform, they are not working at a level needed to burn extra energy.

 

[ambeck22]

Deep tissue massages help with lactic acid buildup, though you'll be sick for a few days after the massage!

 

[tippyclubb]

I have periodontal disease and have had it for many years. It is kept under control by flossing 2x a day and brushing after every meal, plus I have my teeth cleaned every 4 months. Each time my teeth are cleaned the dentist checks the condition of my gums. The last four years my gums have been in good condition.

I visited the dentist today and my gums are bleeding, infected, and have major gum recession. The dentist and I could not understand why such a huge change has occurred. He told me a routine cleaning would not do much good and need to do a deep scaling clean to the tune of $888. I left the dentist totally perplexed as to why this has happened when I take very good care of my teeth.

After reading this thread I am convinced it must be the vaping pg that has caused the rapid decline of my gums. I had no clue vaping could do this. I will do the very expensive scaling and go back in 4 months and see if the gums have improved any. If not I will have to stop vaping. I was planning on quitting anyway but all of this may cause me to stop sooner than expected.

 

[enchantedwonder]

Ambeck I though about that... then I thought you know this is what it feels like after a deep tissue massage. I took hot baths with salts. A massage does sound good though

Deep tissue massages help with lactic acid buildup, though you'll be sick for a few days after the massage!