Protank Cotton Rebuild, the way I do it

[MacTechVpr]

New to vaping and the info here is very enlightening. Question though, in rebuilding coils, is it necessary to have a meter to test? I have 32 awg kanthal and plan to try my hand at wrapping. I would like to be at 1.8 ohm. What is the wraps that should achieve that without having to test.

Wolf welcome. Horton gives you some sound advice. That and a good safe batt charger. I've had two runaways and fortunately not in my car. Need I say more.

I've been doing a months long study on improving building methods/materials. I publish results tables for builds on standard diameters specifically for the ProTank you will be able to replicate here...Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!: Post #835; Protank Contact (micro) Coil Resistance Tables.

Try to devote some time here on this thread on the above. Scope out the issues of localizing, terminating and creating the coil. First step is that first contact micro coil. That'll address 90% of the problems folks encounter. Some important basics and video tutorial on the wind on my blog at the link below.

Tap us on the shoulder either place and we'll be back at ya.

Good luck.

 

[horton]

Good point, Mac..... I still can't find that little program that helps figure coils. I don't remember if it takes leg length into consideration though. Now that I think of it I haven't considered them myself. I think I build coils the way my wife says I cook -- "Italian style" -- just sort of guesstimate how much of an ingredient is needed and pitch it in the pot....LOL
Looking forward to the post..... thanks for the heads up

 

[eLefAdEr]

First attempt at this was a failure, but I know what I can do to correct it. Was using a #44 drill bit which is just a tad wider than a 5/64" and that compounded the issue with installing the coil as I slipped the bottom pin and insulator back into the assembly -- the 'inside' lead of the coil kept pushing up as I tightened it all together, and it appears to be making contact with the side. I can't even force a short because it won't fire.

A smaller diameter should fix this since I will be able to keep the drill bit stable within the cup area as I push the pin/insulator back into place. Hopefully can dedicate a little more time to this later tonight.

 

[PariahNine]

Hey, Mac. Would you mind taking a gander at this thread and give me some insight? I'm pretty stumped.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=546385

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[MacTechVpr]

Good point, Mac..... I still can't find that little program that helps figure coils. I don't remember if it takes leg length into consideration though. Now that I think of it I haven't considered them myself. I think I build coils the way my wife says I cook -- "Italian style" -- just sort of guesstimate how much of an ingredient is needed and pitch it in the pot....LOL
Looking forward to the post..... thanks for the heads up

Well you can after you've done a recipe more than a few dozen times, lol. I do know what a good gravy is though, if you're italiano, you know what I mean.

One online resource I use, pretty straightforward...Helical Coil Calculator works reasonably well for the basic coil length. And from there you can derive the overall resistance. It does appear to properly calculate the Pythagorean. Give it a try.

I would try and measure some actuals as they come out. Note the leg lengths. I posted my observations on the last resistance tables mentioned above.

Thanks for the acknowledgement.

Good luck and a great vape.

 

[MacTechVpr]

First attempt at this was a failure, but I know what I can do to correct it. Was using a #44 drill bit which is just a tad wider than a 5/64" and that compounded the issue with installing the coil as I slipped the bottom pin and insulator back into the assembly -- the 'inside' lead of the coil kept pushing up as I tightened it all together, and it appears to be making contact with the side. I can't even force a short because it won't fire.

A smaller diameter should fix this since I will be able to keep the drill bit stable within the cup area as I push the pin/insulator back into place. Hopefully can dedicate a little more time to this later tonight.

Yes, eLef, the final pin push is a most delicate part of the process. And you can introduce a leg bend short or a high end turn which will go hot, effectively a short. Perhaps all the way down the leg to the grommet, depending on how good or tight the rest of the coil is. Electrons follow the path of least resistance.

I terrminate in two or three steps pushing in the grommet slightly and correcting small deviations in the coil. I use moderate finger pressure to pull on the legs and balance the tension of the coil and in the leads in relation to the other. Basically eLef, you want to even things up. Not force it though. When you do it right, it just feels right.

Then after you stop grinning…make sure the tails of your leads are not sticking out. Don't forget. As small as they may seem protruding off the grommet they will produce wild resistance variations.

Then you're done.

Good luck eLef and congratulations on your first try. Each time gets better.

 

[brookj1986]

I must say, I still have trouble pulling the tails off. The trails slip out of my hands before I can get the snap... May also be that many I've tried with are twisted 32 gauge... or I haven't figured out the secret.

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[MacTechVpr]

Hey, Mac. Would you mind taking a gander at this thread and give me some insight? I'm pretty stumped.

Ceramic Wick Kanger Protank Issues

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I don't teach or promote hand winding P9. Been trying to steer folks away from it to a more proper and efficient electrical build since I started posting. I realize not every one has the time to read both the threads I've been posting on. I'm not lyin'. For reals.

It's awesome you got the pin vise. So I hate to say this dude…the wick goes inside the coil. Not over the bit. You feed it into the coil only after it's installed in the assembly, fired and glows like a microcoil. Then it's rigid, bonded and tight is it can get and you can proceed to wick it.

It's a delicate feed inside of 1/16" and that's what I keep telling everybody. A lot easier into 1.7mm or .07" (1.788mm) which I prefer, a slight tad loose and it feeds right in. A blind person like me can do it without magnification and it takes seconds. What you describe is WAY TOO MUCH WORK and does not produce an efficient coil. There is practically no chance of any adhesion of the coil doing it that way and the molecular bonding potential of Kanthal is lost with a hand wind.

So, build that perfect coil and try starting at 1.8mm to wick it and you will have a great vape tonight. I promise.

But don't forget to pulse it and confirm you have a properly flowing microcoil before you do! You can't recover from that. It pretty much is a standard coil from there on. You burned it in. To make a proper molecularly bonded microcoil requires that the Kanthal be virgin metal at the first oxidation. Anything after that is forming not adhesion and wil not result in the same efficiency.

There's you're answer…the wick goes in the coil, not on the bit. Do the build; then, wick it.

It's tempting to consider starting all over on a new thread to show what the development of a proper coil is but it would be a major project for this user. Volunteers for the editing staff welcome though. Don't all speak up at the same time (bring hi-res cam).

Good luck.

 

[PariahNine]

I don't teach or promote hand winding P9. Been trying to steer folks away from it to a more proper and efficient electrical build since I started posting. I realize not every one has the time to read both the threads I've been posting on. I'm not lyin'. For reals.

It's awesome you got the pin vise. So I hate to say this dude…the wick goes inside the coil. Not over the bit. You feed it into the coil only after it's installed in the assembly, fired and glows like a microcoil. Then it's rigid, bonded and tight is it can get and you can proceed to wick it.

It's a delicate feed inside of 1/16" and that's what I keep telling everybody. A lot easier into 1.7mm or .07" (1.788mm) which I prefer, a slight tad loose and it feeds right in. A blind person like me can do it without magnification and it takes seconds. What you describe is WAY TOO MUCH WORK and does not produce an efficient coil. There is practically no chance of any adhesion of the coil doing it that way and the molecular bonding potential of Kanthal is lost with a hand wind.

So, build that perfect coil and try starting at 1.8mm to wick it and you will have a great vape tonight. I promise.

But don't forget to pulse it and confirm you have a properly flowing microcoil before you do! You can't recover from that. It pretty much is a standard coil from there on. You burned it in. To make a proper molecularly bonded microcoil requires that the Kanthal be virgin metal at the first oxidation. Anything after that is forming not adhesion and wil not result in the same efficiency.

There's you're answer…the wick goes in the coil, not on the bit. Do the build; the, wick it.

It's tempting to consider starting all over on a new thread to show what the development of a proper coil is but it would be a major project for this user. Volunteers for the editing staff welcome though. Don't all speak up at the same time (bring hi-res cam).

Good luck.

Thank you, sir. I'll give it another go tonight and report the results.

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[MacTechVpr]

Thank you, sir. I'll give it another go tonight and report the results.

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So I don't spoil anybody else's party with my posts spread all over the place. If you're just tuning in…there's a quick way to make a contact micro coil that I describe on this thread and on http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/clearomizers/486794-protank-microcoil-discussion.html. When that screwdriver or pin vise wind is done, you'll have this…

The basics of localization and balancing (the symmetry) of the coil are explained from the start of this and the above mentioned thread which covers more advanced methods and details on targeting resistance and temperature..

If I can help, post to me here or on that thread in answer to any topic.

Good luck.

 

[PariahNine]

Just as a side note, I used your technique, but instead of wrapping the coil directly around the bit, I wrapped it around the bit sheathed in the XC-132. At my office at the moment, but I'll post a picture when I get back home.

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[MacTechVpr]

I must say, I still have trouble pulling the tails off. The trails slip out of my hands before I can get the snap... May also be that many I've tried with are twisted 32 gauge... or I haven't figured out the secret.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.

Get a cheap cuticle cutter from the drugstore. Nail clippers often don't cut close enough. Larger tools are too clumsy. And don't use the tip, I've ruined a lot of good grommets that way cutting into them. And you'll dull the clipper quickly too. Use the side and push in slightly to grab the wire as you push in then cut. That should allow you to cut inside the edge of the assembly Can't do that with a clipper.

If that fails, use a small flathead screwdriver to push in any edge you can feel.

Don't assume it's not there. If in doubt, use a magnifier. The light can play tricks on your vision and sometimes you miss it just feeling the edge.

Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Just as a side note, I used your technique, but instead of wrapping the coil directly around the bit, I wrapped it around the bit sheathed in the XC-132. At my office at the moment, but I'll post a picture when I get back home.

It's rather a coincidence that someone posted to me with a question on that subject just a few days ago. His post and my reply…

got some 2mm on the way ill report back as to if it fits with a 1/16 bit but something to remember is that it is a sleeve so you could place the bit inside wrap place and slip it out

You don't really want to do that. You can easily break its back hand winding with too much pressure, just like Ekowool. Pressure across the longitude of the media essentially creates a damn. The more pressure, the more pathways that are blocked. The flow will be chocked.

Braided media, even wound media like silica is susceptible to this. You need to fit the coil diameter to the wick and that requires technique and just a little bit of precision. What's required is so simple a child could do it, and they do every day for hoop rings in art class. Certainly we can do better to reap the benefits of a fabulous vape.

If you can hand thread it snugly, you're golden. Too loose, not efficient. Too much wire, overkill in wasted amp draw.

You wrote, and that's been my consistent experience too…

I noticed little flavor, and after the first few vapes I noticed the draw was very tight, along with some gurgling and hot splattering out of the drip tip. Let it sit a few more minutes and the gurgling/splattering subsided, but the draw remained tight and the flavor very muted. Ultimately clipped the wick to the very side of the coil head, with the exact same results.

P9 when I first started my consumer wick/rebuild study I tried skewering hollow wicks of many kinds in an effort to stabilize them in clearo's. I pretty much got the result you describe across the board with everything I tried. Muted flavor and marginal vapor output. The reason straightforward…it tended to produce oversize coils relative to the wick cross-section after withdrawal of the mandrel. Also the wick itself had been compromised in the winding process too often. It's very difficult to apply a consistent hand tension or to detect when you are deflecting the material with too much force. On my best of a great many efforts the results were merely adequate compared to silica. I wound my first tight, contact and microcoil that first month of vaping and began my study. And to document the procedures on this forum including tension winding. And periodically I will do a wind on a mandrel wick, sometimes a needle, for reference purposes. The performance of even a conventional tight symmetrical coil so far outweigh a mandrel hand-wind on wick that I dismissed the latter method.

Regardless P9 your efforts and results are welcome and appreciated. Shoot the picture dude. Let's have a look. I might be tempted to try again.

Good luck.

 

[leerm8680]

Made my first microcoil today. Oxidized good. Gotta play around with the cotton wicking. Practice makes perfect.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Made my first microcoil today. Oxidized good. Gotta play around with the cotton wicking. Practice makes perfect.

Congratulations lee, and welcome. Two things you should definitely try…cotton and Nextel XC-132 in a ProTank. Re the latter I would recommend always that you inform yourself regarding any safety factors of concern to you. Really as well for cotton. That said, both materials are the simplest media to insert into a proper electrical coil in a clearomizer. Nextel having a distinctive advantage for its stable longevity and why I constantly suggest it. Not all of us have the time to make frequent wick changes.

I would say perfect the ordinary micro at your leisure. But definitely try the tension wind I write about asap. It will save you tremendous amounts of time.

If you need us, hail us.

Good luck.

 

[brookj1986]

Get a cheap cuticle cutter from the drugstore. Nail clippers often don't cut close enough. Larger tools are too clumsy. And don't use the tip, I've ruined a lot of good grommets that way cutting into them. And you'll dull the clipper quickly too. Use the side and push in slightly to grab the wire as you push in then cut. That should allow you to cut inside the edge of the assembly Can't do that with a clipper.

If that fails, use a small flathead screwdriver to push in any edge you can feel.

Don't assume it's not there. If in doubt, use a magnifier. The light can play tricks on your vision and sometimes you miss it just feeling the edge.

Good luck.

Brilliant, I'll be picking one of those up today. Also at the point where I need to invest in a toolbox or tackle box to put all my e stuff in to keep it organized. My shoebox is completely overfilled.

More vape mail on the way... Got some 29 gauge in the mail as well as metric drill bits of 1.8 mm and 2 mm since I want the largest possible coils that I can still put the bit into the pt2 opening.

Almost done spending money for awhile... almost. I swear, this thread has gotten me to spend on so many things recently.

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[MacTechVpr]

Brilliant, I'll be picking one of those up today.

Thanks! But no so brilliant. I love whippin' the things off. I'm training myself just like the rest of you guys. And I'm a tough student. Sometimes I don't listen so good. I should be payin' attention to those slippery silicone grommets!

More vape mail on the way... Got some 29 gauge in the mail as well as metric drill bits of 1.8 mm and 2 mm since I want the largest possible coils that I can still put the bit into the pt2 opening.

Exactly. And though I try to discourage starters with the t.m.c. effort from straying when you get the basics right and your vape's great you can then work on localizing larger wick/coil arrangements and diameters, twisted pair, widening the wick slot, etc. But if you can't return to a standard configuration but in a crisis you'll be in a world of hurt. Newb's want to be everywhere, I understand, but you want to avoid real pain. You gotta walk before you can run. You need a dependable vape.

Also at the point where I need to invest in a toolbox or tackle box to put all my e stuff in to keep it organized. My shoebox is completely overfilled. ...Almost done spending money for awhile... almost. I swear, this thread has gotten me to spend on so many things recently.

Get's away from ya, huh? Shhhh, I have half a closet full of a hodge podge of empty USPS Priority Mail boxes. I sneak 'em in, never can seem to sneak 'em out.

Try and pace yourself. Keep good stock of your supplies and needed spares like o-rings, screws. Satisfy yourself with preparation. Cue up the big stuff when you're really hurtin'. LOL I long ago exceeded any savings and my budget by making this a "mission" to save other people their time and money. Sometimes it's just worth it.

Good luck.

 

[brookj1986]

Thanks! But no so brilliant. I love whippin' the things off. I'm training myself just like the rest of you guys. And I'm a tough student. Sometimes I don't listen so good. I should be payin' attention to those slippery silicone grommets!



Exactly. And though I try to discourage starters with the t.m.c. effort from straying when you get the basics right and your vape's great you can then work on localizing larger wick/coil arrangements and diameters, twisted pair, widening the wick slot, etc. But if you can't return to a standard configuration but in a crisis you'll be in a world of hurt. Newb's want to be everywhere, I understand, but you want to avoid real pain. You gotta walk before you can run. You need a dependable vape.



Get's away from ya, huh? Shhhh, I have half a closet full of a hodge podge of empty USPS Priority Mail boxes. I sneak 'em in, never can seem to sneak 'em out.

Try and pace yourself. Keep good stock of your supplies and needed spares like o-rings, screws. Satisfy yourself with preparation. Cue up the big stuff when you're really hurtin'. LOL I long ago exceeded any savings and my budget by making this a "mission" to save other people their time and money. Sometimes it's just worth it.

Good luck.

Is there a special technique for ripping those tails off? Just can't seem to do it without messing things up.

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[MacTechVpr]

Is there a special technique for ripping those tails off? Just can't seem to do it without messing things up.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.

Unfortunately, as I suggested, I'm still learning the hard way. I love to twist their heads off! But I keep a cuticle cutter nearby…for when I mess up.












There are three kinds of men: the one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. —Will Rogers

 

[downInTn]

More vape mail on the way... Got some 29 gauge in the mail as well as metric drill bits of 1.8 mm and 2 mm since I want the largest possible coils that I can still put the bit into the pt2 opening.

I started using heads from some cheap Smok clearos that I had, the slot in them allow a 2mm bit all the way to the bottom. I set them up with a twisted pair of 32ag, tension wound and terminated, cotton wicked. Never thought I'd see this kind of performance out of a ProTank, it's outstanding! I dare say it rivals some of the single coil RBA's.