Protank Cotton Rebuild, the way I do it

[Wicked & Coiled]

So my simple question once more is why would I want to torch this as you see it?

The only reason that a grommet could be burning in the first place is if there's a short in the wind. That's why I abandoned hand winding, yikes just realized, just about 8 months ago. I gather that you're winding on a fixed Ø but it's still a hand-wind. But if you are, I'm wondering why any further handling?

As I said it only took about 30 sec's to wind. On the screwdriver, I then tension the horiz. (neg lead) with a forceps into it's final position. I de-wrap an extra turn or two and leave the leads pointing in the direction of their wind (opposing). All this takes a minute including dropping it into the coil head. About 5 min's in toto and yer done. Why do I need to torch again?

I'd like to hear your thinking on this. Me, I've posted often that adhesion is what produces a true contact micro coil, in so many words, anything less is just a reduction in possible efficiency and incrementally more short risk due to imperfections in the wind and in the oxidation process itself. And each minute irregularity in either oxidation or surface angle, contact, etc. is an obstacle to electron flow. It means you'll have a hotspot elsewhere, perhaps below the thermal threshold of vision, a short, as the flow seeks the path of least resistance. You can't improve on the physics of uniform electrical annealing of a coil in a state of adhesion like the above exhibit. And torching the metal will replace the coherent elasticity of tension with the rigidity imparted by torching. Two ways to shape a coil tension and forming. The latter after the fact overrides the former. Just like tension winding deforms the coil shape of a straight wire into a helix.

That may be the most beautiful prose I've ever read.

I just torch and squeeze to make it nice and squooshy tight-like.

Never thought about hotspots below the thermal threshold of vision....



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[f1vefour]

32g is almost useless for contact coils, if you pulse the coil to chemically bond the wire it will always and I mean always deform and warp the coil.

Twisted 32g works great but has a tendency to cause minute leaking between the grommet and termination pin, not bad but it will leak a bit.

I recommend 30g or less for contact coils in the PT. These are my observations.

 

[brookj1986]

Well I love 5/64" but as I said earlier in this thread (or the Protank Cotton thread) it's not possible to slot on the bit on most clearo's. And as I described above if you can't tension the coil as you install it you will have hotspots (shorts). It seems such an awfully simple electrical principle yet so unimaginably difficult to get across at times. I'm pleased to see you're trying the 16th. If your kit has something less than the 1.8mm slot width, I'd rather that and put more wick in. Or as I've also suggested, file out the slot to permit the 5/64" bit. Right there are your options.

Also, if you want to consider making twisted pair out of your 32's, you might like it. And, oh, btw you can tension that too for a really cool dense vape. Use the collet Rip style to lock in the open end of the wire and hold down the loop at your foot with a vice grip or needle nose. Pull up on the drill as you wind the wire at a constant tension but the collet must be secured tightly. You will get a tensioned twisted pair that's probably unlike any you've ever seen. Another method is to weight the wire and hand turn it with enough of a ballast. That will produce some extremely fine tight twists as well. Look for the resistance tables published earlier in this thread for guidance on the equivalent 28 gauge resistance to 32 T/P.

Hey, don't get me goin'. Ok? Allright?

Good luck.

I've had fun twisting 32 gauge... I have even played with the triple twist that Rip posted about.

I just tested the pin vise I got. Works amazing with the 5/64" bit. Struggling with the 1/16th... The bit is slightly to small for one collet and too tight a squeeze to fit any wire down in the collet with it (though I was able to pinch it under the cap and thread the cap still -- seems to be less than ideal). This method created a very nice 32 gauge tmc (but couldn't even see the wraps ), however may be better to twist it and try again.

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[M_DuBb716]

Now, if the coil appears skewed (turned away from the slot) there is a way to correct this (are you listening M?). I've mentioned in the past that you can correct for this by grasping both the grommet and the pin between thumb and index finger and rotating it, one way or the other, a millimeter at a time. You don't want to do this too much.…you can cross the leads. Sometimes this slight adjustment can eliminate any slight skew without doing a re-set.

Lol, Mac! I'm listening! It's so funny you mention this (and I've actually never seen you mention this technique before). I actually figured out this little trick (turning the grommet & pin) a few months ago, on accident. When I was reading this and got to "Are you listening", I could almost predict what you were going to say. I was thinking of mentioning this technique myself but didn't know if it was really safe to do, now I do.
... ^^^This technique works for microcoils and standard coils. One of my biggest issues with all of my Protank builds, is trying to get the coil lined up with the slots evenly!!

And what a great post that was, start to finish. I wish I could fit the entire thing in my signature in quotes!! Now that I think of it, I think I'll post a link to that very post (#318) in my sig.. Very valuable info right there for any Kanger user!!

 

[MacTechVpr]

Lol, Mac! I'm listening! It's so funny you mention this (and I've actually never seen you mention this technique before). I actually figured out this little trick (turning the grommet & pin) a few months ago, on accident. When I was reading this and got to "Are you listening", I could almost predict what you were going to say. I was thinking of mentioning this technique myself but didn't know if it was really safe to do, now I do.
... ^^^This technique works for microcoils and standard coils. One of my biggest issues with all of my Protank builds, is trying to get the coil lined up with the slots evenly!!

And what a great post that was, start to finish. I wish I could fit the entire thing in my signature in quotes!! Now that I think of it, I think I'll post a link to that very post (#318) in my sig.. Very valuable info right there for any Kanger user!!

Thanks M, I was jus' tryin'...to be a little funny widja. Glad you caught it.

First things first, horizontal alignment is critical as when it's wrong it's likely one of the legs will go hot. It's typically caused by over tightening one side or the other. Time to re-set or rewind. It's sometimes hard to get. And sometimes I've gone days where I can't set a one. It happens. We're none of us perfect. And YMMV definitely applies to body mechanics. Just ask an olympic athlete or pro ball star. No two performances are the same. Each one is unique.

Sooohhh, the reason I didn't highlight this little trick is simple. I try to encourage the basics. If people rely on a trick they never learn the muscle memory necessary to do it right. It's an adaptation. A means to correct an unpredictable result, like built in rotational tension in the wire (which may in fact be inherent to the the producer). Lots of reasons I won't expound on here. But yeah, definitely useful and probably more appropriate on your more advanced microcoil thread.

So boys and girls don't prove me right and abuse this. It's real easy to cross the legs in a wind that's already set symmetrically. Remember you've been warned. But if you need a quick and dirty coil, by all means, throw it in there Rip Tripper's style and twirl that grommet 'till it's straight. There's only a 50/50 chance it will actually short (or thereabouts). But don't hold me to it (what am I am friggin' mathematician?).

And M, now you know, there really isn't anything I haven't tried on a Kanger but leash it and take it for a walk. I leave it to others to do the necktie thing.

 

[MacTechVpr]

32g is almost useless for contact coils, if you pulse the coil to chemically bond the wire it will always and I mean always deform and warp the coil.

Twisted 32g works great but has a tendency to cause minute leaking between the grommet and termination pin, not bad but it will leak a bit.

I recommend 30g or less for contact coils in the PT. These are my observations.

I agree with you on the recommendation f1ve for tension bonding. My tests on 31/32g were even before I joined ECF. Cross testing hand winds on wick, screws and assorted round things. LOL I seem to recall I was able to actually produce microcoils fairly easily without flaring them. Oftentimes, I was using eGo v1's on low vol t do the firing. But you are definitely right about the sensitivity at burn in for 32g. I can confirm accomplishing them in both gauges. I also seem to remember vapdivrr having success with live wire annealing way back last Spring which was when I first started taking an interest in the electrical developments on ECF before I quit. But my memory isn't perfect.

Let's just see how good brook is with that fire button. I bet he gets the twisted for sure. He seems determined.

Thanks and good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Never thought about hotspots below the thermal threshold of vision...

Try turning off the lights.

(Grommets burn with a short whether you see it or not. Or is it only burning if you look at it? Sorry too quantum.)

Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

That may be the most beautiful prose I've ever read.

I just torch and squeeze to make it nice and squooshy tight-like.

Never thought about hotspots below the thermal threshold of vision....

Hey WC, if you like squeezy squooshy…more power to ya.

Good luck.

 

[brookj1986]

Figured out a good way to secure the wire. Twisted 32 gauge tmc. Not yet installed.

The first one I made was 1.5 ohms but I'm going to test it out.

It's a good start... Now I just got to figure out why my Tapatalk notifications stopped all of the sudden.

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[f1vefour]

Those will vape like a champ, nice work.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Figured out a good way to secure the wire. Twisted 32 gauge tmc. Not yet installed.

The first one I made was 1.5 ohms but I'm going to test it out.

It's a good start... Now I just got to figure out why my Tapatalk notifications stopped all of the sudden.

Darn tootin', pretty good start. Fairly straightforward to do with the right tools and method. Congratz brook. It only gets better from here. It seems like you got some adhesion there but it's far from true on twisted, more like forming. So you should pulse and compress at the set before you wick to gather in those turns as much as possible.

If you're wicking with cotton let me suggest an approach that may be helpful for twisted. After satisfactorily pulsing and compressing the coil…take the normal amount of cotton that you might select for the wind...say about 2-1/2" (along the natural grain) with about 5/8" cross section of cotton. Cut it in half and you have two short wicks. You're going to insert one from each side of the coil.

The idea here is to pull in the turns of the coil as much as possible as you insert both sections and even out the internal distribution of cotton in the coil. You will need to make approx. 3/8" long needles for each wick and compress each wick softly. Don't twirl, rope or twist but try to leave them as close to their natural density as possible.

It's helpful if you can get one of the needles most of the way through with just a little bit of fluff in the coil which can be slightly compressed. Grab that first needle tip with anything that can clamp it and rest on the flange of the assembly, like a short forceps. Then insert the other needle through the coil as the other wick is compressed by pulling. Pick up the second needle on the other side with a needle tip tweezer and begin to pull through.

Even out the density of the two wicks in the coil pulling the turns tight together. You have about brought the turns about as close together as they may come. The natural firing process will continue to oxidize the Kanthal and a semblance of bonding of the turns may continue. You may see a slight variation of resistance accordingly. Usually not more than a few hundredths.

This is a solution that has worked for me extremely well with ribbon wire in the Immortalizer (RDA) builds and should translate equally well to t/p in the KPT assembly if a slight bit more difficult to maneuver. Just try and make the needle wicks as thick as may be passed through the coil. Thin and wispy ain't gonna cut it. And pull slightly on the first wick to compress it as you insert the second (it's being held by a clamp, forceps, etc.).

A far more efficient distribution of internal pressure of the cotton is produced with this method and should result in a tangible improvement in vapor and flavor. A single strand of cotton presents an uneven pressure from one side of the coil to the other. If too thick and pulled too hard cotton can dislodge the end turn as it's inserted and produce resistance changes or even a short.

A burned cotton taste is not a good taste brook.

Good luck.

 

[brookj1986]

Darn tootin', pretty good start. Fairly straightforward to do with the right tools and method. Congratz brook. It only gets better from here. It seems like you got some adhesion there but it's far from true on twisted, more like forming. So you should pulse and compress at the set before you wick to gather in those turns as much as possible.

If you're wicking with cotton let me suggest an approach that may be helpful for twisted. After satisfactorily pulsing and compressing the coil…take the normal amount of cotton that you might select for the wind...say about 2-1/2" (along the natural grain) with about 5/8" cross section of cotton. Cut it in half and you have two short wicks. You're going to insert one from each side of the coil.

The idea here is to pull in the turns of the coil as much as possible as you insert both sections and even out the internal distribution of cotton in the coil. You will need to make approx. 3/8" long needles for each wick and compress each wick softly. Don't twirl, rope or twist but try to leave them as close to their natural density as possible.

It's helpful if you can get one of the needles most of the way through with just a little bit of fluff in the coil which can be slightly compressed. Grab that first needle tip with anything that can clamp it and rest on the flange of the assembly, like a short forceps. Then insert the other needle through the coil as the other wick is compressed by pulling. Pick up the second needle on the other side with a needle tip tweezer and begin to pull through.

Even out the density of the two wicks in the coil pulling the turns tight together. You have about brought the turns about as close together as they may come. The natural firing process will continue to oxidize the Kanthal and a semblance of bonding of the turns may continue. You may see a slight variation of resistance accordingly. Usually not more than a few hundredths.

This is a solution that has worked for me extremely well with ribbon wire in the Immortalizer (RDA) builds and should translate equally well to t/p in the KPT assembly if a slight bit more difficult to maneuver. Just try and make the needle wicks as thick as may be passed through the coil. Thin and wispy ain't gonna cut it. And pull slightly on the first wick to compress it as you insert the second (it's being held by a clamp, forceps, etc.).

A far more efficient distribution of internal pressure of the cotton is produced with this method and should result in a tangible improvement in vapor and flavor. A single strand of cotton presents an uneven pressure from one side of the coil to the other. If too thick and pulled too hard cotton can dislodge the end turn as it's inserted and produce resistance changes or even a short.

A burned cotton taste is not a good taste brook.

Good luck.

I'll have to try that next time I wick. I did pulse it more after that photo. About how much pulsing should I be doing? Do need to get some needle nose tweezers for sure though.

When you say far from true on twisted, what do you mean? I couldn't find my allen wrench for my normal twisting, had to use a makeshift fix which may have popped the wire before it was fine tightening.

Had a few experiences with burnt cotton. Burnt cotton = quick rewicking time!

I've been experimenting with how to make a proper wick with cotton in the pt2/pt2 mini. I've gone from tight roll, to only making a needle point and pull it thru without rolling to a bit of a mix, back to a looser wick.

RDAs I've had much better luck with a looser cotton wick. I occasionally get pops of juice in the pt2 with the looser cotton wick.

Do you typically remove the silicone ring from the flavor post or leave it on. The last 5 pt2 minis I've kept it off, but I was thinking the standard pt2 with a 1/16" may benefit from keeping it on. I used to use 5/64"so it wasn't an issue. Would love your opinion.

Thank you again. Amazingly great info.

 

[PariahNine]

I posted this in another thread with no response, thus I'm reposting it here:

Think I may be missing something here. Using 32g Kanthal, with approximately 6 wraps, my multimeter shows the coil at 7.8ohms and my SVD reads it at 2.9ohms.

I'm also having a heck of a time getting all the coils to stay perfectly flush. This is after watching the video half a dozen times, following his instruction as implicitly and precisely as possible. Only variance here is that he's using 29g and I'm using 32g. Does the gauge make that much of a difference in getting the coils tight?

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[PariahNine]

I was mistaken about the coil as well, it actually read at 3.7 ohms on my SVD initially. I ended up using it for about a day, before I started getting a profound burnt taste. Before removing it, I checked it again and it was reading 3.1 ohms.

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[pjmarkert]

With that much variance, either your multimeter is way off or there is a loose connection. What is the diameter of the form the coil was wound on?

 

[MacTechVpr]

I posted this in another thread with no response, thus I'm reposting it here:

Think I may be missing something here. Using 32g Kanthal, with approximately 6 wraps, my multimeter shows the coil at 7.8ohms and my SVD reads it at 2.9ohms.

I'm also having a heck of a time getting all the coils to stay perfectly flush. This is after watching the video half a dozen times, following his instruction as implicitly and precisely as possible. Only variance here is that he's using 29g and I'm using 32g. Does the gauge make that much of a difference in getting the coils tight?

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Short Answer: Yes, it makes a difference. A thicker gauge like 30 AWG which I recommend for most uses is easier to see and easier to either form (hand-over-hand) or tension wind direct off the spool. The latter will give you an almost perfect result with the right level of tension applied. No torching is necessary at all. It's also a heck of a lot easier to see!

Good morning Pariah. I see that you have started to take a look at some of the right things like stabiliation on threads such as http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/tutorials/503157-step-step-guide-simple-microcoil-cotton.html. Problem is a lot of the info I found on ECF and uTube when I started (and since) was just wrong, incomplete or badly explained.

First, your resistance returns suggest your coil install is not stable, not symmetrical or geometrically proper. That is, it's not a coil yet in an electrical sense as we use it here…a tension wound contact microcoil. And it's not located so that a proper negative/positive termination occurs (without incidental contact elsewhere than the pin or to itself).

I'm reaching to think you are trying to build a tensioned coil. Let's start with that essential tool.

I describe a proper microcoil and the reasons that tension is what actually makes them happen at Post #10379, Micro Coils to increase Vapor, flavor & TH.

You want the bonding of the oxide layers to occur after you have installed and terminated the coil. So no torching.

You need to wind the raw wire right off the spool to your screwdriver. It doesn't take a lot of tension if you rest the handle of the screw on the rim of the spool and rotate, as demonstrated by the originator of the microcoil, super_X_drifter. You may find his wind tutorial on my link below.

Try beginning with 30 AWG if you have it or can get it. If it's folded rewind it on some kind of round handle removing or avoiding any bends or kinks so you can spool it to a screwdriver. Also confine your wind to a diameter between 1/16" and .07" (no more than 1.8 mm which is the width of the slot in the assembly).

If you wind with just enough tension, and not much is required with 30 AWG, the coil will be uniformly "flush" as you say with itself as this example…

I posted a fairly good summary for localizing the coil yesterday on this thread at Post #318, Terminating first tensioned coil.... But I strongly urge you to study the thread from the start. The evolution of this thread explains a great deal as to the "why" things are done a certain way and what may happen when they are not. A great many other suggestions on improving basic localization of the coil and microcoils as well.

Try to get that first coil just right pariah and you will see a world of difference.

Let us know so we can help.

Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

With that much variance, either your multimeter is way off or there is a loose connection. What is the diameter of the form the coil was wound on?

Good point and question. Thanks for giving back pj! Glad you're here.

Good luck.

 

[PariahNine]

Thanks for the feedback. I have 100 feet of 32g (minus what I've used) and have better success so far hand winding. Consistently getting 1.7ohms with 5 wraps. Wanna make the leap into true micro coils though. I've ordered my first RDA, so I'm looking for wire that will be optimal for both the Kanger coil heads and the RDA. I'm seeing a lot of folks recommending 29g. Too large of a gauge?

Just as a side note, this is my first venture into building any electronics from the ground up, so I have very elementary understanding of the principles of resistance, ohms, wattage, voltage, etc.

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[pjmarkert]

Good point and question. Thanks for giving back pj! Glad you're here.

Good luck.

Is it possible that the head is corroded or dirty causing the connection from the wire to the head to heat up? The rubber insulators usually have very slight burn marks at the top where the wire comes in, but in this case maybe burn marks further down the insulator (inside or outside) could point to a bad connection.

 

[pjmarkert]

Is it possible that the head is corroded or dirty causing the connection from the wire to the head to heat up? The rubber insulators usually have very slight burn marks at the top where the wire comes in, but in this case maybe burn marks further down the insulator (inside or outside) could point to a bad connection.

Just wanted to add (for some reason browser wouldn't let me edit my last post): The metal parts of the head act as heat sinks, that's why the insulators usually have just slight scorch marks at the top. Any burns further down would indicate a poor connection from the wire to the head which would also explain higher than expected resistance. Could also be oxidization of the wire where it is in contact with the head.