Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[MacTechVpr]

Here is an update to yesterdays post which contained transcription errors. Two entries were rebuilt to confirm resistance values, addendum in green…

32AWG, 7/6 1.75mm i.d. m.c. = 2.2Ω √
32AWG, 5/4 2mm i.d., loose m.c. = 1.85Ω √
30AWG, 11/10 1/16-1.58mm i.d., m.c. = 2.1Ω √ #292 MrOcelot
30AWG, 11/10, 1.2mm i.d., t.m.c. = 1.8Ω √ #601 Christopherja
30AWG, 10/9 1/16-1.58mm i.d., m.c. = 2.04Ω √
30AWG, 9/8 1.75mm i.d., t.m.c. =2.01 √
30AWG, 9/8 1.58mm i.d., m.c. =1.93Ω √
30AWG, 9/8 1.58mm i.d., t.m.c. =1.83 Ω √
30AWG, 8/7 1.75mm i.d. m.c. = 1.85Ω √
30AWG, 8/7 1/16-1.58mm i.d. m.c. = 1.81√
30AWG, 8/7 1/16-1.58mm i.d. t.m.c. = 1.73Ω √
30AWG, 7/6 1.75mm i.d., m.c. = 1.68 √
30AWG, 7/6 1/16-1.58mm i.d., m.c. = 1.57Ω √
29AWG, 10/9 1/16-1.58mm i.d., t.m.c. = 1.95Ω √
29AWG, 9/8 1.75mm i.d., t.m.c. = 1.73Ω√
29AWG, 9/8 1/16-1.58mm i.d., t.m.c. = 1.63Ω √
29AWG, 8/7 1.75mm i.d., t.m.c. = 1.52Ω √
29AWG, 8/7 1/16-1.58mm i.d., t.m.c. = 1.40Ω √
28AWG, 12/11, 1/16-1.58mm i.d., m.c. = 1.3Ω #241 vdaedalus
28AWG, 10/9, 2mm i.d., m.c.= 1.62Ω
28AWG, 9/8, 2mm i.d., m.c.= 1.49Ω
28AWG, 8/7 2mm i.d., m.c.= 1.3Ω

Some standard verification m.c. winds are included for perspective. All results were three times hit, verified on separate cargo-meters and variable in operation. Wire spec is Temco, Kanthal A-1. Nominal lead lengths typically noted on avg. are ~7mm(Neg)+9.25mm(Pos).

m.c.= conventional (hand or mechanically wound) contact coil
t.m.c. = tensioned contact coil

Your submissions would be helpful and appreciated. Please post or pm and I will validate for this table as soon as possible.

(n.b. A mechanically wound coil is not necessarily tensioned. Preferably tension adequate to induce turn-adhesion must have been applied for its use to be inferred or reported. Not merely external heat or forming pressure. Thank you, as there will be resistance implications and its important to make the destination.)

Hope this info is helpful in targeting your temp sets. Let me know your validations please (or successful improvement so we can test it!).

Good luck all.

 

[Mazinny]

Thanks for the update Mac.

It took a few builds, but i think i am getting as comfortable with the 30g as i was with 28.




1.5875 11/10 2.1 ohms on svd

problem is, when i put the chimney on and added liquid and put in tank, resistance dropped to 1.5 ohms !?

what could be happening here ?

edit : now it's at 1.7

 

[MacTechVpr]

Thanks for the update Mac.

It took a few builds, but i think i am getting as comfortable with the 30g as i was with 28.

View attachment 321959
View attachment 321960

1.5875 11/10 2.1 ohms on svd

problem is, when i put the chimney on and added liquid and put in tank, resistance dropped to 1.5 ohms !?

what could be happening here ?

edit : now it's at 1.7

Thank you, thank you, thank you. You describe EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

First, btw, that is uniformly what a tensioned contact micro coil is. Small adjustments, not too much set tension, a little bit of fine tweezer adjustment for the horiz. and rotational axis…and you're beautiful! Pulse and voila, t.m.c.! Insert cotton, Eko, Nextel and with practice building just a couple'a few a week, you get what you see. Even for someone as finger fidgety as me. It's delightful to see maz. Thank you so much for your example. I'm sure it's routine for you.

Now I did one just like it last night on that 29/9-turn reeval. And it was picture perfect and balanced impeccably resulting in the 1.73Ω. It was on a silicone composite which has produced skew but less so than Kanger's or knock-off's. Inevitably, it did. And since I'm a stickler and will take the damned thing apart if the wind's blowin' the wrong way I'll reseat it and retest it over-and-over until it settles down or doesn't. In this case, after a reseat it settled down but gave me problems on tank top-off as you described. It's been more stable than pure silicone but therein lies the problem.

It is a — R O Y A L P I A !!!

Oh, and for all the silicone enthusiasts out there. Silicone does burn at 550F except you just can't tell it is. You won't taste it. But you sure will see the burn marks sure enough when the damned things start slippin' all over the place. The damned connector's not designed for a silicone grommet to provide the adequate friction for termination. I'm sure some bright young engineer could have figured that out with just a few practical tests. So, I try not to go all conspiracy on myself but I gotta say…couldn't have made it any harder for folks to actually try and rebuild these things than to make the damned insulators as unable to do their function of grounding to termination…THAN THIS DAMNED CLUSTER.

Just sayin'.

Before y'all go takin' me apart on alternative explanations. I do closely monitor other aspects of my evaluations including juice characteristics (limited for tests), VG/PG ratios and sources (have several and monitored), etc. The only potential is the VG lubricity and I have alternated between my three varieties and the juices with which used. I can't escape the undeniable fact…resistance holds when I pull out the old burny grommets from stand-by and drop them in instead.

Can't deny the obvious.

All I can recommend is keep an eye on it. The grommet slip mimics a too short 510 pin or depressed 510 female on the mod. You'll get low load, often alternatively, along with the skewed resistance returns. And then out of nowhere you're correct res. I've seen this on every VV/VW I have (10).

Observations and recommendations welcomed here.

Good luck.



p.s. Both silicone, for those so disposed, and more conventional (apparently composite) grommets are available from Lightning Vapes. Feedback on results appreciated here.

 

[M_DuBb716]

Very nice micro, Maz.. I bet your coil was too high, making contact with the chimney when you pushed it in. This causes the short and change in resistance.

When installing the coil, make sure your pushing your drill bit towards the bottom of the slot. This way, the inside if the coil lines up with the bottom of the slot, and you don't have to worry about the chimney touching the top of the coil and causing a short

 

[MacTechVpr]

Very nice micro, Maz.. I bet your coil was too high, making contact with the chimney when you pushed it in. This causes the short and change in resistance.

When installing the coil, make sure your pushing your drill bit towards the bottom of the slot. This way, the inside if the coil lines up with the bottom of the slot, and you don't have to worry about the chimney touching the top of the coil and causing a short

Good point M but…I kinda think maz's got that part down. Could be wrong but pic #1's got it lookin' pretty goin' on where the bottom of the slot's concerned. Have to see what the top wick situation is to know the chances here for that coil to have dislodged when screwed in. I'd still curse the damned silicone, lol.

Good luck.

 

[Mazinny]

MDub, and Mac, thanks for the feedback. I test fired with the chimney on and it was at 2.1. i filled the tank with liquid and tightened the coil, and vaped for a while before i checked the resistance again. So i don't think its the chimney. At first i blamed it on the 30g kanthal, until i thought it through and it didn't make sense. Then i blamed it on the aerotank base, until i saw Macs post.

Thing is, i keep my cups, grommets, pins and chimneys separate and use them randomly. As the grommets get injured by the kanthal with repeated removal, i discard them. So i have many more cups, chimneys and pins, than grommets. I am almost out of the rubber grommets and use silicone mostly. So i think Mac might be right on this one. Btw, the resistance is at 1.9 now.

I have bought both authentic kanger and replica coils and the slots in the cups are of a different size. I can fit a 1.8 mm screwdriver in some and 1.5875 in others and make sure to use the one that fits most snug, so i don't think that chimney contact is the issue.

 

[LazyBulldogge]

So, I'm looking at getting a spool of 30 AWG Kanthal from zivipf.com, but what would you guys recommend?

Kanthal D 0.25mm
Kanthal D 0.26mm
Kanthal A-1 0.25mm
Kanthal A 0.25mm

They're all (but one) 0.25mm but they differ a bit in resistance and "blend" so to say - does it make much of a difference, which of the 4 I buy?

Edit: I'm currently using Kanthal D 0.20mm (32AWG) and it's working just great, the reason I'm looking for some thicker wire, is simply to get more heating surface. But what about "heat up time", will that increase, by using a thicker wire, but still wrapping the coil to the same resistance as I do with the 32 AWG?

Thanks in advance for your answers

 

[MacTechVpr]

MDub, and Mac, thanks for the feedback. I test fired with the chimney on and it was at 2.1. i filled the tank with liquid and tightened the coil, and vaped for a while before i checked the resistance again. So i don't think its the chimney. At first i blamed it on the 30g kanthal, until i thought it through and it didn't make sense. Then i blamed it on the aerotank base, until i saw Macs post.

Thing is, i keep my cups, grommets, pins and chimneys separate and use them randomly. As the grommets get injured by the kanthal with repeated removal, i discard them. So i have many more cups, chimneys and pins, than grommets. I am almost out of the rubber grommets and use silicone mostly. So i think Mac might be right on this one. Btw, the resistance is at 1.9 now.

I have bought both authentic kanger and replica coils and the slots in the cups are of a different size. I can fit a 1.8 mm screwdriver in some and 1.5875 in others and make sure to use the one that fits most snug, so i don't think that chimney contact is the issue.

You are a good observer too, I might add. Here's the rub (I'm a pun-ny guy), I know I'm onto something here. So much so I went to prove the point, once again. The revised 1.73Ω build went wonky. Silicone grommet turned out crimped to a sliver having been sliced by the neg after a 2nd top-off. As I alluded above, I replace these with rubber in my continuing speculation about these differences. I did so here, delicately removing what was left of the silicone and as deftly as my twitchy digits would allow inserted an old Kanger rubber in its place pinching it along the neg leg to depress the rubber past it. Bingo dead-on 1.72Ω, settling in to a precise 1.73Ω as read on two cargo-meters and the trusty black flat-top "eVic". Confirmed yet again on two Sig's, one vintage, one new. She's right as rain with the rubbers on.

Don't know what to say here crew. Maz, it's not a conspiracy when it's done right in the open…and nobody cares.

So I'll confirm here once again. This is my consistent finding across dozens of these events, that once you replace the misbehaving silicone grommet with original rubber resistance normalizes. Maybe I'll soon find the black swan that disproves the obvious.

It's no mystery folks, no secret; silicone is slippery.

Just sayin'.

Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

So, I'm looking at getting a spool of 30 AWG Kanthal from zivipf.com, but what would you guys recommend?

Kanthal D 0.25mm
Kanthal D 0.26mm
Kanthal A-1 0.25mm
Kanthal A 0.25mm

They're all (but one) 0.25mm but they differ a bit in resistance and "blend" so to say - does it make much of a difference, which of the 4 I buy?

Edit: I'm currently using Kanthal D 0.20mm (32AWG) and it's working just great, the reason I'm looking for some thicker wire, is simply to get more heating surface. But what about "heat up time", will that increase, by using a thicker wire, but still wrapping the coil to the same resistance as I do with the 32 AWG?

Thanks in advance for your answers

Kanthal A-1 seems to be the flavor of choice world wide. I think mostly due to it's higher temp tolerance. For dry burning and reusing coils this is beneficial to resist failure of the coil (overheating and burn through of the wire). However, A-1 is oxidation resistant. For purposes of pulsing to induce an alumina oxide layer and so producing a final tensioned contact coil I've wondered whether such an attribute is desirable.

Good luck.

 

[Mazinny]

Mac, i checked the lightning vapor site, and the prices seem really high. If i were to buy 20 grommets say for $ 12 and add in shipping, it would come out to the same price i would pay for 20 complete coils. If fasttech decided to add this item, i bet they would be able to price 100 grommets for less than the $ 6 Lightning Vape charges, and on top of that the shipping would be free. Yeah, it would take 3 to 4 weeks, but i still have 4 rubber grommets in decent shape, and since i have many other devices, this should last me a bit, and i have a friend who uses kanger stock coils and doesn't rebuild, and i just called him and thankfully he hasn't thrown away his old coils !

 

[brookj1986]

Mac, i checked the lightning vapor site, and the prices seem really high. If i were to buy 20 grommets say for $ 12 and add in shipping, it would come out to the same price i would pay for 20 complete coils. If fasttech decided to add this item, i bet they would be able to price 100 grommets for less than the $ 6 Lightning Vape charges, and on top of that the shipping would be free. Yeah, it would take 3 to 4 weeks, but i still have 4 rubber grommets in decent shape, and since i have many other devices, this should last me a bit, and i have a friend who uses kanger stock coils and doesn't rebuild, and i just called him and thankfully he hasn't thrown away his old coils !

Shipping is free if you order standard ground. Otherwise, there's another post on flea bay for 6.99 for 10; 12.99 for 20 with free standard shipping.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.

 

[M_DuBb716]

Built my 1st micro in awhile last night. 10 wraps of 30g on 1.5875mm (1/16in), 2.0 ohms as expected.. It's crackling and popping good, but I'm still not getting good thick vapor and flavor like my regular coils.

Mac, I'm about ready to pay you to build me a couple of these! lol. I don't know where I've been going wrong, hopefully it's because I'm not tension winding properly

 

[MacTechVpr]

Mac, i checked the lightning vapor site, and the prices seem really high. If i were to buy 20 grommets say for $ 12 and add in shipping, it would come out to the same price i would pay for 20 complete coils. If fasttech decided to add this item, i bet they would be able to price 100 grommets for less than the $ 6 Lightning Vape charges, and on top of that the shipping would be free. Yeah, it would take 3 to 4 weeks, but i still have 4 rubber grommets in decent shape, and since i have many other devices, this should last me a bit, and i have a friend who uses kanger stock coils and doesn't rebuild, and i just called him and thankfully he hasn't thrown away his old coils !

Hey, it's redick…but you know vapers are impulse buyers (judging by how many times I've run outta juice, lol). Hey look, I love the expression, "There's an a** for every seat." When you're desperate for a beer, any 7-11 looks irresistible. So while I can't endorse that kind of pricing, such business has its purpose in the marketplace. Still I tell shops who don't realize they're smoking cessation resellers that it's not about making a living off the air filters. Firmly believe that in the long haul we'll most of us be cooking (rebuilding) rather than relying on Macdonald's. Maybe I'm wrong. So, good thing you got the hook-up to that good bud with the coil stash. Don't let him/her near me I'll have 'em rebuilding in 5 mins.

Oh, btw, I reviewed my active tanks today. To my surprise I found two running the silicone grommets from LV. A little compressed but fine. Both settled in as I described in early post after a little skew-i-ness and are stable. These are test tanks I run with Nextel and comparison wicking at diff wind/power/res/juice/etc. I always have at least three or more running. These run my all day vape so I hit them hard and frequently. Sometimes I supplant them but if not they get a lot of action. So if they're up a week or two the grommets better survive a lot of tank fills. In fairness, the silicone from LV seems to be somewhat different and somewhat more reliable than Kanger's or some of the extremely godawful varieties I've seen in knockoff's. However, they share the same distinction…silicone is slippery.

Good luck maz. Thanks for the comeback.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Built my 1st micro in awhile last night. 10 wraps of 30g on 1.5875mm (1/16in), 2.0 ohms as expected.. It's crackling and popping good, but I'm still not getting good thick vapor and flavor like my regular coils.

Mac, I'm about ready to pay you to build me a couple of these! lol. I don't know where I've been going wrong, hopefully it's because I'm not tension winding properly

LOL…come down to Fl, we'll run off a hundred of 'em. Pesky things they're like tribbles. They're everywhere in my kit, my workspace, they spin off somehow to find their way into everything. Please…come take them off my hands!

M, recently continuing to watch others make them on screwdrivers and more recently a few on pin vises…they get messed up and skewed with too much tension. And more tension, applied by hand, I'm not really sure lends any great advantage. I'd have to say that just enough is enough.

And it's becoming clear to me that the days I can't make one I'm satisfied with is when I'm tense. And it stands to reason I'm using too much force to effect control.

Good light, good magnification and if you try again literally try to wind it around the screwdriver but as softly as you can. Just 5 or 6 turns. Take your time and go slow. Don't worry if they're neat and separate. That would be something I would try. The next one a little bit more pressure. And so on.

I actually wound my first contact coil like that, quite by accident. I was just trying to keep them neatly spaced and tight, going slow. I couldn't do it! I was adding too much tension and they were slipping together. Aha!

Just LMK M, I'll stuff a few in some cotton balls and toss 'em to ya.

Good luck.



What's in the mail: Professional Swivel Head Pin Vise 2 Reversible Chucks

 

[LazyBulldogge]

Alrighty, ordered a spool of Kanthal A-1 30 AWG from zivipf.com, let the fun times continue

 

[M_DuBb716]

Hah, thanks Mac! I think that might actually be my problem - too much tension when I hand wind. Next time I'll try not pulling so hard

 

[MacTechVpr]

Hah, thanks Mac! I think that might actually be my problem - too much tension when I hand wind. Next time I'll try not pulling so hard

Exactly. Don't push the work. Let the work guide you.

I would love to see the SIG on your face when it first fires micro tensioned.

Good luck M. Really!

 

[MacTechVpr]

Alrighty, ordered a spool of Kanthal A-1 30 AWG from zivipf.com, let the fun times continue

Good luck LB. Give a howl if and when it strikes you!

 

[brookj1986]

So I know this is for protank micro coils. But I was curious about a kayfun 3.1. Just got mine. First of all, my micro coil was not great at all. Quite substandard. 28 gauge, vapes well, but not as well as I know it can. Mac, you have any helpful suggestions?

Edit: Right after I sent that, I think I made my first quality tmc.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.

 

[Taowulf]

That's it, been thinking about it for days, I am ordering the stuff I need this weekend. Damn you all.