Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

[MacTechVpr]

On a completely unrelated note, Mac, your micro coil techniques have taken my drippers to a new level. Just got a good Helios clone. Wonderful dual coil 0.8 ohm 28 gauge. Dripping NicoTicket peanut butter cookie with a little Frenilla mixed in... One of the better vapes I've ever had.

Sorry, I know off topic, but I owe those beautiful coils to the tensioned techniques I learned for the pt

Eventually, it will turn into a quad build... Love the T post, makes life so easy.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.

That's real purdy brook, gotta tell ya. Looks like a 9 over 5/64". My last experiment on the PT for that yielded: 29AWG, 9/8, 5/64” i.d., t.m.c. = 1.76Ω. I thought the figure might be off but you're obviously in the zone. I kinda love that Ω for a lot of builds. Wish it would work in the KPT but it's oversized for Nextel.

I thoroughly enjoy the Helios. As you can see almost as much as the Immortalizer in the background. Have several originals of each plus test gear I use to not risk the precious insulators. As I said, I test a lot…

Your next step might be to try running that same config with twisted pair. I tension wind twisted wire with my trusty 12V-pack RYOBI (fresh batt a must) by running the loop from a needle-nose underfoot to the collet at full RPM. Yields a very tight wind only improved upon by winding on a bench press with weight or pressure.

My preferred wind for the Helios/ZNA30 is 31AWG T/P D/C, 10/9, 5/64” i.d., t.m.c. = .78Ω. It's installed "outboard". I cross the positive from the post adjacent to the side to the pos post of the opposite side. This wider spread allows a longer positive lead out to the very edge of the dripper and a less angled neg lead to begin the set. The set is tensioned on the mandrel as wound, screwed down when stable then oriented to the height of airflow for final pulsing. This sets the coils just a tad inward so little chance of shorting on the dripper chamber wall but marvelously close to the airflow. I'm experimenting with pulsing before the final height set to lend a bit of rigidity to the coils. Sometimes handling them before beginning oxidation deforms them.

My absolute favorite dripper ever as much as the Trident is a killer has become the VHO Raiju RDA, a variant of the Helios base (similar to the Helios but brass). The materials and execution are excellent and balance of the design in concert with t.m.c.'s just offers incredible production at any wind spec. Undoubtedly the closest cigar/analog experience I've seen yet. The next step up from the above is my spec build for this device, also "outboard"...32AWG T/P D/C, 8/7, 5/64” i.d., t.m.c. = .65Ω.

I'm sure you will be able to duplicate both of these easily brook and really, really enjoy them.

Point being that our Protank builds right here translate very directly to just about every other piece of gear we love in vaping. And once you master the hurdles of tensioning a perfect coil geometry and taming the peripheral issues of end turn asymmetry, lead tension balance at termination points, grommet slip, pin push skew, etc. you can pretty much master any device. You've learned to apply the principles of analysis for action and reaction. I haven't addressed each and every point with precision on this thread but I know those of you who got there have succeeded to develop the techniques. Applause to you all. It's great when you share with us as you do brook. Thanks.

And good luck!

 

[LazyBulldogge]

LB you'll be very pleased with the tweezers. Between that and the coilers the coil making process will become pretty seamless. In the middle though lies the treacherous ground of slippery grommets. It's become a major problem challenging all the methods we write about here. But I will emphasize one thing…bear in mind that balancing the tension of the wind is what it's mainly about. As you set keep examining your coil and mildly tensioning with fingertips both leads as you push in grommet and pin. This will help.

I've done many dozen's of builds with partners in my study and others over the past few weeks. It's more important than ever to recall that symmetry and tension go hand-in hand.

Good luck LB. Enjoy the vape.

Yeah, looking forward to getting the ceramic tweezers a lot, since, as you also mention, the silicone grommets do tend to screw up the coil just a little bit when screwing/unscrewing the coil+base on to a device.
I have noticed though, that once you get the centerglow going, it remains that way, pretty much regardless of how the coil looks. I've had coils looking like an accordion after a handful of refills, and yet they still glow nice and evenly and vape's still good. Don't know how or why that works, but it does

With all the talk about the AeroTank base, I might have to give them a try again, if I can get them to sit flush on my ProVaris, that is. Until that happens, I do get magnificent airflow with a few tweaks on the stock setup though. Just drill out the air holes to 1.5mm / 1/16" and trim the grommet a bit while keeping it compressed, and you're set to go, even on the "air flow killer setup", that is the ProVari and a Protank with silicone grommet, screwed in nice, tight and flush

 

[Garemlin]

Dual coil for a PT3, works great, awesome flavor. I've been using it since Friday of last week, 1.18Ω.

That was the best angle I could get, from the top you can only see one coil.

Edited to change to link. Uploading to ECF reduces the size far too much.

Ok looking at the base I am wondering how a single coil would work. Looks like there would be a gap between the coil and the chimney.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Yeah, looking forward to getting the ceramic tweezers a lot, since, as you also mention, the silicone grommets do tend to screw up the coil just a little bit when screwing/unscrewing the coil+base on to a device.
I have noticed though, that once you get the centerglow going, it remains that way, pretty much regardless of how the coil looks. I've had coils looking like an accordion after a handful of refills, and yet they still glow nice and evenly and vape's still good. Don't know how or why that works, but it does

With all the talk about the AeroTank base, I might have to give them a try again, if I can get them to sit flush on my ProVaris, that is. Until that happens, I do get magnificent airflow with a few tweaks on the stock setup though. Just drill out the air holes to 1.5mm / 1/16" and trim the grommet a bit while keeping it compressed, and you're set to go, even on the "air flow killer setup", that is the ProVari and a Protank with silicone grommet, screwed in nice, tight and flush

The increasing slipperiness of the more flaccid silicone everyone clamored for is wreaking havoc LB. You're right once you fuse a coil in adhesion it's like my drywall example. It's pretty much going to survive the rigors of vaporization for a while…unless you really fudge it fiddling. The slippery slope of grommets can only be surmounted by stickin' to the overall principle of keeping the build taught (not overly tight) particularly those end turns as you tighten the leads during the final push in of the grommet and pin.

It's an imperfect design the whole 510 thing and the devices built around it. We make it work by being real attentive to the nuances of each of these devices. That's what I've tried to do over nine months and to document what I've found for the benefit of those struggling. I've picked up a few things and share them here. Hope more will do the same. An important influence was a poster by the handle of Trayce who we miss. He really highlighted and coined the term burny grommet and drew attention to the Protanks' propensity to short. Good lesson. Fixing that has been the key to getting the best out of this tank. Unfortunately his hoped for solution in silicone has turned out to be a Trojan Horse as far as I can see, the benefit of our mass production geniuses.

So LB congrats on catchin' on and your confirmations and additions here.

Enjoy the vape and we'll see ya.

Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Ok looking at the base I am wondering how a single coil would work. Looks like there would be a gap between the coil and the chimney.

Great observation G. There's a hole in that pumpkin.

Short answer: Use a standard Protank head. It's compatible.

However, you could locate a slightly larger 5/64" t.m.c. relocalized by carefully supporting the hollow core of Eko or Nextel for the set. Install as usual and directly if cotton and two flavor wicks. Without the top cap it's hard to see what needs to be filled.

Or let's be real creative…just drill it out at the slot to 3mm, wind it down to .5Ω, fresh batt, power it up to 30W and be done with it.

There is such a thing as wretched excess, no?

Seriously, a dual piggy-back will be fiddly as hell with shorting but will work, I think, sorta, for a while as fickle as the grommets are. Then the usual flavor wick should do it.



Good luck G. Haven't gotten to this one yet. Let us know.

 

[Taowulf]

Ok looking at the base I am wondering how a single coil would work. Looks like there would be a gap between the coil and the chimney.

It isn't a problem. The rubber piece will fill a lot of that in and your wick for the single will get the rest.

 

[Taowulf]

double post

 

[Garemlin]

It isn't a problem. The rubber piece will fill a lot of that in and your wick for the single will get the rest.

Good info. Just hate to risk it. I am going to eventually try the new Aero Mega but have full intention of not using the new sealed heads.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Good info. Just hate to risk it. I am going to eventually try the new Aero Mega but have full intention of not using the new sealed heads.

Good for you G! That deserves a like. Hate eatin' at Macdonal's all the time. Not that I don't like the packaging; but, I like to vary the content.


Good luck.

 

[Taowulf]

Good info. Just hate to risk it. I am going to eventually try the new Aero Mega but have full intention of not using the new sealed heads.

Just figured I would show you this as I finally had a sec to take a pic. This is a dual coil head with a single coil. You can see that it covers down to the cotton pretty well.

 

[brookj1986]

Just wanted to show my first attempt at a tensioned parallel coil. (0.4 ohms or so) that said, obviously far from perfect, but it heats relatively evenly, though there are clear coils which heat up faster, but still just wanted to test it out.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.

 

[Mazinny]

What is a parallel coil and how is it different to a twisted coil

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

 

[MacTechVpr]

Just wanted to show my first attempt at a tensioned parallel coil. (0.4 ohms or so) that said, obviously far from perfect, but it heats relatively evenly, though there are clear coils which heat up faster, but still just wanted to test it out.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.

Brook, contrary to the conventional method…rather than fixing both ends of the pair, one in a pinched loop and the other at the winding bit, go ahead and fix the loose pair at the collet of the pin vise. However, the normally pinched loop in a conventional wind of twained wire must remain open and the wire must float if you're going to wind with tension. Think about it and consider that the tension between the two wires should be equal.

I'm experimenting with different thin objects that will allow the wires to adjust their respective length. So far the best I've tried has been a serrated forceps yet this doesn't seem really right for the job. I try to match the length between serrations as I set the wire in the pin vise by fully stretching out the wires before I clamp the forceps. However, this doesn't seem to fully equalize the length. And I haven't been totally able to exclude some slight difference in tension between the legs of the twain, consequently minor separations. A pain to cure with imperfect adhesion, to reach the effect.

Next few winds try the loop around a screwdriver or similar which may allow a slight balancing of the tension between the twain.

Let us know if any of you try an alternative with success. I'm looking for common household artifacts that might be useful. The loop of a safety pin comes to mind but I'd hate to have one pop out in my face. I think you get the idea. Anything that could be made stationary and serve as a guide for the looped end. How sturdy it needs to be depends on the gauge of your wind.

Good luck.

 

[brookj1986]

What is a parallel coil and how is it different to a twisted coil

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk

A parallel coil involves having the wire run parallel the entire time (fold it in half) then wrap. Creates extremely low ohm single coils.

Fun to try from drippers.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.

 

[brookj1986]

Brook, contrary to the conventional method…rather than fixing both ends of the pair, one in a pinched loop and the other at the winding bit, go ahead and fix the loose pair at the collet of the pin vise. However, the normally pinched loop in a conventional wind of twained wire must remain open and the wire must float if you're going to wind with tension. Think about it and consider that the tension between the two wires should be equal.

I'm experimenting with different thin objects that will allow the wires to adjust their respective length. So far the best I've tried has been a serrated forceps yet this doesn't seem really right for the job. I try to match the length between serrations as I set the wire in the pin vise by fully stretching out the wires before I clamp the forceps. However, this doesn't seem to fully equalize the length. And I haven't been totally able to exclude some slight difference in tension between the legs of the twain, consequently minor separations. A pain to cure with imperfect adhesion, to reach the effect.

Next few winds try the loop around a screwdriver or similar which may allow a slight balancing of the tension between the twain.

Let us know if any of you try an alternative with success. I'm looking for common household artifacts that might be useful. The loop of a safety pin comes to mind but I'd hate to have one pop out in my face. I think you get the idea. Anything that could be made stationary and serve as a guide for the looped end. How sturdy it needs to be depends on the gauge of your wind.

Good luck.

Hmm. Sturdy key ring? (or the little hole where you may find a chain on those little nail Clippers?

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Hmm. Sturdy key ring? (or the little hole where you may find a chain on those little nail Clippers?

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.

Rummaging through my workstation drawers as I type.

 

[Mazinny]

A parallel coil involves having the wire run parallel the entire time (fold it in half) then wrap. Creates extremely low ohm single coils.

Fun to try from drippers.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.

how would the effect be different than just wrapping twice as much in the conventional method ? Feel free to jump in Mac

 

[f1vefour]

how would the effect be different than just wrapping twice as much in the conventional method ? Feel free to jump in Mac

Because essentially it's a dual coil in a single coil space.

If 8 wraps of 30 gauge gets you 1.4 ohms then 8 wraps of two strands side by side (parallel) would be 0.7'ish ohms.

 

[Taowulf]

I made a couple of dual coils for the Mini Protank 3s today as my experiment with the 1.1Ω dual coil in my Protank 3 is going extremely well. Flavor is pretty good. Both are about 15 wraps around a 18ga needle, around 1.2Ω.

 

[Mazinny]

Because essentially it's a dual coil in a single coil space.

If 8 wraps of 30 gauge gets you 1.4 ohms then 8 wraps of two strands side by side (parallel) would be 0.7'ish ohms.

ah so, gotcha ty !