Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

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MacTechVpr

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how would the effect be different than just wrapping twice as much in the conventional method ? Feel free to jump in Mac :)

I've been experimenting with it as it's a much more direct way to get to the more efficient vaporization of twisted pair (more deflection contact surface area). That is, a more efficient thermal transfer and perceived cooler vape at a given resistance. Plain English…better vapor gang.

It does produce an approximate (more than) halving of resistance. In fact, particularly with a tensioned wind a more significant and lower value. And I don't have a clue how to calculate it at the moment.

It's easier to attain adhesion and more complete at that with parallels. As I was commenting to brook earlier you need to find a simple means to keep the wire, the twained pair, even in tension to attain consistent turn adhesion. A guide or something so that the the looped end of the twain can float. And bit more concentration required to pull it off. Duals can be challenging but rewarding. Overall it can save time and complexity despite all this. Fiddly factor is higher though.

Good luck and enjoy!

:)
 
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brookj1986

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I've been experimenting with it as it's a much more direct way to get to the more efficient vaporization of twisted pair (more deflection contact surface area). That is, a more efficient thermal transfer and perceived cooler vape at a given resistance. Plain English…better vapor gang.

It does produce an approximate (more than) halving of resistance. In fact, particularly with a tensioned wind a more significant and lower value. And I don't have a clue how to calculate it at the moment.

It's easier to attain adhesion and more complete at that with parallels. As I was commenting to brook earlier you need to find a simple means to keep the wire, the twained pair, even in tension to attain consistent turn adhesion. A guide or something so that the the looped end of the twain can float. And bit more concentration required to pull it off. Duals can be challenging but rewarding. Overall it can save time and complexity despite all this. Fiddly factor is higher though.

Good luck and enjoy!

:)

Next step, dual parallel coils in my Helios. Will attempt with those cheap nail Clippers with key ring hole to see how it works. Will have to wait until the dual micro coils are in need of replacement, but definitely think I should try :)

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.
 

MacTechVpr

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Next step, dual parallel coils in my Helios. Will attempt with those cheap nail Clippers with key ring hole to see how it works. Will have to wait until the dual micro coils are in need of replacement, but definitely think I should try :)

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.

The Helios is a perfect platform for twained wire with the split positive posts. With holes that small it's hard to get four strands in without snarling the winds. Still I've managed to fit 29 AWG delicately into an IGO-W. Workin' out the winds for 28g would probably be a smart idea to save my neck. I've been using these to test Nextel so to spare my originals the inevitable sh!it happens. But we're strayin' way OT here except for the fact that parallels very much resemble the tech we're getting from Kanger these days with non-res wire to boot.

Good luck brook. Shoot us a pic will ya?

:)
 

brookj1986

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The Helios is a perfect platform for twained wire with the split positive posts. With holes that small it's hard to get four strands in without snarling the winds. Still I've managed to fit 29 AWG delicately into an IGO-W. Workin' out the winds for 28g would probably be a smart idea to save my neck. I've been using these to test Nextel so to spare my originals the inevitable sh!it happens. But we're strayin' way OT here except for the fact that parallels very much resemble the tech we're getting from Kanger these days with non-res wire to boot.

Good luck brook. Shoot us a pic will ya?

:)

Will do and very sorry about leading us way OT. Might be a few more days for photos, but will definitely come so I can lead us ot again :)

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MacTechVpr

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Will do and very sorry about leading us way OT. Might be a few more days for photos, but will definitely come so I can lead us ot again :)

No worries brook. I'm not the mod and never intend to be. I always posted here with the simple intention of getting novices through and into rebuilding as quickly and efficiently as possible. Who would I be to complain that folks illustrate their success. That's why I make the time. To help see that happen. Happy for ya. Last I heard, this wasn't the Protank advocacy forum (thank goodness). But it was kind of distracting at the beginning with the tri-coils at 30 watts bravado. Couldn't develop a momentum that realistically solved problems (for all the 6 turns with 32 gauge chatter prevalent everywhere else). And we all have them. So…

I welcome a diversity of glee. All that vapin's about as far as I'm concerned. Havin' fun with it. Getting' there.

Good luck.

:)
 

brookj1986

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No worries brook. I'm not the mod and never intend to be. I always posted here with the simple intention of getting novices through and into rebuilding as quickly and efficiently as possible. Who would I be to complain that folks illustrate their success. That's why I make the time. To help see that happen. Happy for ya. Last I heard, this wasn't the Protank advocacy forum (thank goodness). But it was kind of distracting at the beginning with the tri-coils at 30 watts bravado. Couldn't develop a momentum that realistically solved problems (for all the 6 turns with 32 gauge chatter prevalent everywhere else). And we all have them. So…

I welcome a diversity of glee. All that vapin's about as far as I'm concerned. Havin' fun with it. Getting' there.

Good luck.

:)

So was too impatient. 0.2 ohm dual parallel coil. Very well tensioned. Used the tool in the background.

ma2a3e5y.jpg


The closer coil is a better tensioned coil, but both work pretty well. Probably too low a resistance for my taste, but figured I'd test it.

Thanks Mac. Back to your regularly scheduled protank discussion.

Sent from my Galaxy Note 3 via Tapatalk.
 

Mazinny

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I've been experimenting with it as it's a much more direct way to get to the more efficient vaporization of twisted pair (more deflection contact surface area). That is, a more efficient thermal transfer and perceived cooler vape at a given resistance. Plain English…better vapor gang.

It does produce an approximate (more than) halving of resistance. In fact, particularly with a tensioned wind a more significant and lower value. And I don't have a clue how to calculate it at the moment.

It's easier to attain adhesion and more complete at that with parallels. As I was commenting to brook earlier you need to find a simple means to keep the wire, the twained pair, even in tension to attain consistent turn adhesion. A guide or something so that the the looped end of the twain can float. And bit more concentration required to pull it off. Duals can be challenging but rewarding. Overall it can save time and complexity despite all this. Fiddly factor is higher though.

Good luck and enjoy!

:)

Meh, too complicated !

I came across this thread originally, when doing some research on coil building while waiting for my russian clone to arrive. since my wire came first i decided to practice on my old pt coils. suddenly my pt's were usable again ! i had given up on them in favor of innokin clearos since they had much better quality control on their stock coils. i then recoiled some aspire heads, and while you had the nuisance of dealing with the cotton like insulator, they were not much different than the pt.

after building coils for clearos, the russians were a breeze. i then experimented with twisted, dual, twisted dual and some more obscure builds with mixed success. i didn't really notice a difference in vape quality over the simple single coil t.m.c however. Gonna stick with singles i reckon ( mostly 29, some 28 and 30 ), across all platforms i own ( various pt's with aerotank base, aspire, kfl+/russian, taifun, and even patriot and trident which i use solely to test new flavors). i am also going back to regulated mods, my mechanicals are too finicky !
 

MacTechVpr

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Meh, too complicated !

I came across this thread originally, when doing some research on coil building while waiting for my russian clone to arrive. since my wire came first i decided to practice on my old pt coils. suddenly my pt's were usable again ! i had given up on them in favor of innokin clearos since they had much better quality control on their stock coils. i then recoiled some aspire heads, and while you had the nuisance of dealing with the cotton like insulator, they were not much different than the pt.

after building coils for clearos, the russians were a breeze. i then experimented with twisted, dual, twisted dual and some more obscure builds with mixed success. i didn't really notice a difference in vape quality over the simple single coil t.m.c however. Gonna stick with singles i reckon ( mostly 29, some 28 and 30 ), across all platforms i own ( various pt's with aerotank base, aspire, kfl+/russian, taifun, and even patriot and trident which i use solely to test new flavors). i am also going back to regulated mods, my mechanicals are too finicky !

Once you have the tools it's simple and rewarding to then determine what works for you. It seems that you are and that's awesome. As I often say, you can build anything with what you pick up here. And having run the Protank gauntlet of grief, survived to tell the tale.

For me, I do see tangible benefits, more efficiency, out of twisted in some circumstances. It translates well in a cooler vape for certain juices including my primary. A richer vape in others, like my primary dripper, a Raijin. My Trident's love straight wire singles with my fav's. A great many factors including wicking methods can optimize or constrain the advantages of either twisted or parallels. And I agree both are more work. It continues an adventure of building horizons. That's what fascinates me. For others its flavors and that study of variations. Some would focus on recipes for the cuisine, others to tweak the burners on the bbq. It's all good.

Glad to see you're enjoying that journey maz, and thanks for the update.

Good luck.

:)
 
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cigatron

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New member here. Guilty of long term lurking. Have read the entire thread and learned alot. Mac, your "journey", along with the other contributors here, has been my journey. I have coaxed, prodded, twisted and contourted my misbehaving kanger evods and protanks into submission. They no longer rule me!
With your encouragements I have shared the wealth with others to kickstart them on their way to happy vaping.
You guys and gals may have more influence on the vaping community than you realize. I have friends of friends that are now building tight TMC,s for their kanger "junk". I get tons of acks for it but I always brag on you guys.
Great research folks and thanks for being instrumental in my quest for better health by making vaping fun again.
 

MacTechVpr

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New member here. Guilty of long term lurking. Have read the entire thread and learned alot. Mac, your "journey", along with the other contributors here, has been my journey. I have coaxed, prodded, twisted and contourted my misbehaving kanger evods and protanks into submission. They no longer rule me!
With your encouragements I have shared the wealth with others to kickstart them on their way to happy vaping.
You guys and gals may have more influence on the vaping community than you realize. I have friends of friends that are now building tight TMC,s for their kanger "junk". I get tons of acks for it but I always brag on you guys.
Great research folks and thanks for being instrumental in my quest for better health by making vaping fun again.


I'll take a moment then to gratefully thank all who've contributed here with their troubles and solutions without whom my participation would have been pointless. I had a simple idea to help folks struggle less. I merely captured those opportunities. I'm grateful for your acknowledgement and to hear of your success. Spread the word cig, your friends will appreciate it. You're a stand-up guy.

Vape strong and good luck.

:)


332934d1399406830-protank-microcoil-discussion-img_0805a.jpg
 
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cigatron

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Any chance of getting the best of's in the op? I'm having a crack at the moment but I've failed completely.

Yeah, a list of proceedures and tools from this thread, and others,that make or break a kanger tmc build would be helpful to my friends who are trying to get this down. Most of them just want instant gratification and won't read 115 pages to acquire the neccessary skill set to become proficient or consistant. They just want me to show them how and provide them one of my little winding tools.
Documenting all the ins and outs of kanger builds sounds like an arduous task but also an opportunity to publish a book!
Any authors lurk'n round?
Just say'n.
 

MacTechVpr

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Any chance of getting the best of's in the op? I'm having a crack at the moment but I've failed completely. Came out at 3 ohm on the aero tank with 31 gauge wire. Think the issue is not having them close together. Hardly vapes and burns when to much volts are applied

Yeah, a list of proceedures and tools from this thread, and others,that make or break a kanger tmc build would be helpful to my friends who are trying to get this down. Most of them just want instant gratification and won't read 115 pages to acquire the neccessary skill set to become proficient or consistant. They just want me to show them how and provide them one of my little winding tools.
Documenting all the ins and outs of kanger builds sounds like an arduous task but also an opportunity to publish a book!
Any authors lurk'n round?
Just say'n.

The threads quite old and long. The information and methods change along the way. I'd be happy to pull permalinks and put them in one but it's no use 116 pages into the discussion.

Not too difficult fella's…

Do an advanced search for "posts" on this and Metalhed's thread for such things as….

Symmetry, tensionsed contact micro coils
Localization, socket, screwdriver, pin vise
termination, leads, grommet, pin, direction
Flooding, gurgling, shorts, hot lead, hot leg, high turn

Etc. individually as sets or combination of above depending on need. Or a broader search citing MacTechVpr as user (or other). I've published over a thousand posts and the vast majority on technical answers to optimizing clearo's, Protank's in particular and the physics of tension as an adaptation to vaping.

A few hours and you compile a handy little notebook of the most pertinent or detailed facts.

Chances are though if you flushed such list and pinned it folks would just likely gloss over it and not understand the implications. You almost have to get your pants wet from a flooding Protank to look for answers. That level of frustration. Then you either decide to not let it beat you or believe that it can't be made to work.

Book offers? Ain't got any. Nobody reads these days anyway. Immediacy is youtube. A wonder anyone still knows how to actually do a thing except maybe you guys still trying here. Six winds 30 or non-res legs for the multitudes.

Good luck.

:)
 

cigatron

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The "Gettin there" thing has been the most enjoyable part of vaping for me. It's one thing to watch a youtube vid to get a jumpstart on rebuilding clearos with micro coils and an all together different thing to understand WHY you are doing what you're doing. That's why I enjoyed reading this entire thread. The contributors were illustrating their successes AND failures to accomplish their target builds. Some of them didn't give up untill they figured it out. I was hooked from the onset. But then again I enjoy tech manuals. Weird huh?
 

cigatron

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Need help with localization on kanger head.

Been building nice tmc's lately.
30awg, 8/7 wrap, .070 id, 1.95-1.97 ohms. Winding directly from the spool on a diy handheld mandrel.

No matter how I tension the legs during localization the coil is offset in the bowl. Always the same amount to one side. Seems to reason that it happens because the legs exit the bowl off center.

I always have to push to coil over to center it (post build). Even though I anneal the coil legs (post wind) to make it easier to manouver it seems this proccess is bit counter productive and sometimes distorts my otherwise perfect coil.

Have any of you found a way to compensate for this (pre build)?
 

MacTechVpr

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The "Gettin there" thing has been the most enjoyable part of vaping for me. It's one thing to watch a youtube vid to get a jumpstart on rebuilding clearos with micro coils and an all together different thing to understand WHY you are doing what you're doing. That's why I enjoyed reading this entire thread. The contributors were illustrating their successes AND failures to accomplish their target builds. Some of them didn't give up untill they figured it out. I was hooked from the onset. But then again I enjoy tech manuals. Weird huh?

Brother, you said a mouthful.

One of the most oft repeated laments in vaping — "I don't get it, I did it just like the video!"

Good goin' Baba Looey.

Good luck.

:)

“The obvious is that which is never seen until someone expresses it simply.” —Kahlil Gibran
 

MacTechVpr

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Need help with localization on kanger head.

Been building nice tmc's lately.
30awg, 8/7 wrap, .070 id, 1.95-1.97 ohms. Winding directly from the spool on a diy handheld mandrel.

No matter how I tension the legs during localization the coil is offset in the bowl. Always the same amount to one side. Seems to reason that it happens because the legs exit the bowl off center.

I always have to push to coil over to center it (post build). Even though I anneal the coil legs (post wind) to make it easier to manouver it seems this proccess is bit counter productive and sometimes distorts my otherwise perfect coil.

Have any of you found a way to compensate for this (pre build)?


Let's talk about the initial localization of the coil within the assembly. The lateral asymmetry of the coil begins from that very first step. But let's roll it back a bit. I speak repeatedly about "direction of rotation at the exit of turn" for the leads". Why?

The short answer: Don't force the coil into position! You introduce an imbalance of tension between the leads...You need tiger claws! Leads arcing in the direction of rotation or exit from the end turns is useful to properly localize the coil in the assembly cup. Without it an imbalance of pressure on one side or the other from the leads pulls or pushes the coil towards the side of the cup (and other heartaches) introducing distortion into the wind itself and possible interruption of adhesion.

Before the grommet and pin set, it's this simple directional difference that imparts the lateral ranging of the coil that you're seeing. Small variations in direction of the leads, though minute, create an imbalance of pressure against the walls of the cup. The cup's resistance in turn results in a pull or push against the coil causing it to migrate off center. If the direction of the leads and pressure they exert against the cup walls is balanced, the coil will rest undistorted and centered. The longer the legs, the greater this distorting effect may be.

Let's go back to the beginning. I've written frequently that the legs should be facing in the direction of rotation as they exit the turn. Revisit that. Leads that terminate straight up-and-down are more prone to upward pressure that induces high end turn shorts. My preferred method for preparing the leads before and after insertion into the assembly cub is to tweeze them (on the mandrel, supporting the back of the coil with a finger) with gentle downward pulls between thumb and index so that they end up looking like cat's claws — pointing in the direction the end turn is exiting from the coil. As well though not sideways either; not inward towards the center of the coil, nor outward away from the coil. Once done you cut the leads shorter to about an inch or inch-and-a-quarter to facilitate introduction into the cup. With very slight pressure squeeze the leads together and insert them through the shortest distance to the 510 exit possible…the slot at the side of the cup.

If the leads are distorted, you may massage the leads again to restore their direction and balance the coil. But if not, hey, no biggie. It's the nominal center you want but more importantly the orientation. If the coil appears in adhesion you may use a tweezer to gently move the coil to the center before or during pulsing.

The main object of the set is to balance the tension in the leads.

I should emphasize that the goal is too terminate at the end of the day with a balance of tension between pos and neg leads at the final push in of both grommet and pin. Sometimes to accomplish this requires several minute steps. That's the approach, taught and balanced symmetry. You're going to be massaging the leads to maintain the direction and claw until you have them set in the direction of exit at the grommet. Once there slight tension applied to both leads by hand or lightly with a forceps will stabilize the coil towards the center if the lead tension is balanced.

After the grommet/pin set, if the coil is in an apparent symmetrical orientation — not skewed diagonally (stretched across the mandrel) and no vertical skew up, down and no rotational or horizontal skew (off axis from from slots) — you've done an awesome job in seconds. It doesn't matter if the centering is perfect. You have a keeper.

The claw is your friend.

Good luck.

:)
 
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Lurch

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[QUOTE= I'm always searching for more like a good precision 1.4, 1.6, 1.8 mm not flat tip. I find them but not in the quality of materials I'd like. Nor the one I'm working right now. It's got burrs which I have worked on but still affect the wind.

If you are still looking for tools in those diameters, check out jewelry making equipment. My wife makes jewelry and has an entire assortment of dowels at different sizes for making jump rings (the little rings that connect jewelry pieces together). I am using her dowels to make coils and it works great. She places them on a hand held battery powered screwdriver and just twist the wire all the way down the 5 inch dowel. I don't need that much so I just do by hand (may try using the screwdriver at some point).
 

MacTechVpr

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I'm always searching for more like a good precision 1.4, 1.6, 1.8 mm not flat tip. I find them but not in the quality of materials I'd like. Nor the one I'm working right now. It's got burrs which I have worked on but still affect the wind.

If you are still looking for tools in those diameters, check out jewelry making equipment. My wife makes jewelry and has an entire assortment of dowels at different sizes for making jump rings (the little rings that connect jewelry pieces together). I am using her dowels to make coils and it works great. She places them on a hand held battery powered screwdriver and just twist the wire all the way down the 5 inch dowel. I don't need that much so I just do by hand (may try using the screwdriver at some point).


Nothing beats a drill and dowel for a good tight run of turns lurch. But it's a bit of overkill here. I'll run off a half-dozen when I'm ambitious. However for tension winds yielding even better precision and electrical efficiency nothin has it up on a pin vise…

Brass Rubber Handled Swivel Head Pin Vise 4 Sizes Of Chucks


Plus the flexibility and economy of just being able to go to a multi-use high tolerance drill bit like a Dremel or exact diameters available in drill blanks. Versatility lurch, that's the ticket.

Good luck.

:)


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