Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

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Jaime Bates

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Its all about being consistent. I will get a video together and post for ya. But the key is using a pin vise of some sort and tension it straight from the spool. What will happen is consistent tension. The nice thing is if done right when u fire very little problems with hot spots or legs. But if u do and fire and squeezing doesn't work then REALLY. It didnt take much to wind take it out and start over. Trust me it takes time and patience but once you get it working its a beautiful thing. Hit me up if need help or suggestions or if u run into problems.
 

scratchtheweasel

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Cool thanks Jaime. Saw your pic too - that's a nice looking coil. What wire are you using?

FYI - I am currently using Super's original tension winding method (e.g. screwdriver with some tape). A pin vise or coil gizmo would be a good upgrade here. You definitely get a tighter coil and I like the method. But hot spots are a new thing with this approach. I assume that with more consistent tension and some practice this will improve.
 

Mazinny

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Cool thanks Jaime. Saw your pic too - that's a nice looking coil. What wire are you using?

FYI - I am currently using Super's original tension winding method (e.g. screwdriver with some tape). A pin vise or coil gizmo would be a good upgrade here. You definitely get a tighter coil and I like the method. But hot spots are a new thing with this approach. I assume that with more consistent tension and some practice this will improve.

In my experience hot spots are more likely when you have an imperfect coil i.e. where there is contact in parts of the coil, and separation in others. With a non contact coil you must be careful that the spacing is even and there is no contact, and with a contact coil, you must have complete contact and adhesion.

Did the end wrap separation occur in placement ? one way to avoid these is to gently pull on the legs while you are placing the grommet and the pin.

Edit ; Scratch, a pin vise with a good set of drill bits in the right diameters would be a good investment. I don't know if they come in metric denominations, but if they do, 1.8 mm would be the perfect diameter for most pt2 coil slots, and 2.0 mm ( 5/64) for the pt3/aerotank coils. It is not necessary however. You could get a perfect coil using a jewelers screwdriver. Once you get a feel for it, you could do it in 30 seconds with your eyes closed.

Keep practicing ! You will get there.
 
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Jaime Bates

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Cool thanks Jaime. Saw your pic too - that's a nice looking coil. What wire are you using?

FYI - I am currently using Super's original tension winding method (e.g. screwdriver with some tape). A pin vise or coil gizmo would be a good upgrade here. You definitely get a tighter coil and I like the method. But hot spots are a new thing with this approach. I assume that with more consistent tension and some practice this will improve.



I am using 28 gauge kanthal that is what i use for all of my builds. Go to homedepot get yourself a pinvise and trust me you will see the difference your coils because you have to have tension and wind straight from the spool. I do not burn my coils before i install them so i fire once installed a couple of times a gently squeeze with ceramic fine tip tweezers. When a coil has that adhesion that we all are talking about its pretty cool it looks blueish grey after firing it. That is how you know that you have done it.

Scratch if you need help just ask pm me and i will help however i can. Trust me i have been where you are and it is rough and aggravating but we can get you through it.

Jaime
 

Jaime Bates

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Welcome scratch. To perfect a microcoil it's not merely helpful but absolutely essential that it be fired. And lightly is good for starters. So true that, definitely not fired too hot (or long) but at the exact moment that such is required. As simple as possible, but not simpler.

So it's a good opportunity to interject here because I'd like the definition of a t.m.c. tensioned (contact) micro coil to remain crystal.

A tensioned contact micro coil is one that has been wound with strain to the point of adhesion thereby assuming the shape of a coherent self-maintaining wind pulling itself taught. Like a spring, locked in the position it was wound by the heat/energy imbued in the element. However, it is not a true microcoil, anymore than one that was formed, i.e. by external pressure or heat, until it is pulsed to form the insulating alumina oxide layer which helps preserve its working geometry and resistance. The definition involves both of the criteria of form and function and applies to any wound vaporizing element created with strain which is self sustaining in geometry and exhibits the effect when fired.

While some of these definitions and explanations have been explored earlier in this and Metalhed's earlier Protank Cotton thread I thought it time to pull them together into a proper profile for the wind.

The pulsing of a t.m.c. is a graduated progression of brief pulses of no more than a few seconds beginning with low power (or very brief pulses on a mech) as cool spots, if any, are cleared; and, graduating to a full lighting of the coil end-to end about the point that the effect is achieved exhibiting a low yellow color return [transition light yellow to orange] when firing from center out until with the stepped application of additional power all turns glow in unison of color. In practice the end turns will typically emit in the high red zone, somewhat cooler than the central core. The progression is best achieved on a VV/VW APV to permit monitoring of interim changes and stabilization of the wind at target resistance as a cue to forego further burn-in.

While coils that are formed are certainly contact coils adhesion perfects an optimal proximity which ensures the maximum possible uniformity for oxidation. The wire may be wound tighter, to no significant advantage of which I'm aware, but may only be drawn thinner (perhaps weaker if excessive) beyond the point of adhesion.

A t.m.c. is not a coil formed by external pressure or compression in any manner or part, assisted by heat or not. To the extent that force is applied, the wire will attempt to resort to that geometry or orientation that was achieved by forming. Nor is a t.m.c. ever torched in any way which may impart impurities which could inhibit the uniform formation of the alumina layer compromising optimization of the coil's cohesion. It may damage the wire's surface as well also interfering with the potential for uniform oxidation.

That's the target. The cleanest wire build possible and the means to get there. Done right you get it in just about a minute between the time spent in wind and pulsing. No scrunching, no squeezing, no tweaking or fiddling.

Good luck to you all and enjoy.

:)


Scratch I want to refer you back to Mac's Post and this really says it all please let me know if you have any questions.
 

cigatron

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Did the end wrap separation occur in placement ? one way to avoid these is to gently pull on the legs while you are placing the grommet and the pin.

Did you guys and gals catch that pural? LEGS not leg. You must hold (tension) on BOTH legs when setting the neg grommet and BOTH legs when setting the pos pin otherwise you run the risk of unwinding your pretty coil on the setting mandrel and/or you will end up with high end turns.

Great reminder Maz!

:)cig
 

CMD-Ky

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Did you guys and gals catch that pural? LEGS not leg. You must hold (tension) on BOTH legs when setting the neg grommet and BOTH legs when setting the pos pin otherwise you run the risk of unwinding your pretty coil on the setting mandrel and/or you will end up with high end turns.

Great reminder Maz!

:)cig

I have tried winding two extra turns. I then unwind one turn at each end while keeping the tension on. This has helped me get the over my tendency to have poorly tensioned ends on my coil.
 

cigatron

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Scratch I want to refer you back to Mac's Post and this really says it all please let me know if you have any questions.


True Mac is doing a lot of work here trying to define in scientific like terms whats happening when we wind and pulse coils but the terms used could stand some refining.

It has been my purpose and subject of study for the last two months to identify and define in true scientific terms this very thing. Most of my spare time has been dedicated to it and is the reason for my limited participation on this and other threads.
I have been consulting with a materials scientist from NASA on are application of kanthal in vaping and will be blogging on the following topics.

Winding with Stress (Tension)
Alumina and it's Characteristics
What causes Hot Legs
Why coils fire Micro (the effect)
Winding for NETs

Other topics will follow and all will be worded with the correct scientific terms but explained in laymans terms so everyone can understand.

:)cig
 

cigatron

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chanelvaps

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I need those laymans terms. I have to admit I read and then re read and then re read again and sometimes even have to google a word. I try to do this because I guess I feel it is important information and something I need to learn but I have to admit it is frustrating. Keeps me behind in the thread and left feeling like an idiot.

True Mac is doing a lot of work here trying to define in scientific like terms whats happening when we wind and pulse coils but the terms used could stand some refining.

It has been my purpose and subject of study for the last two months to identify and define in true scientific terms this very thing. Most of my spare time has been dedicated to it and is the reason for my limited participation on this and other threads.
I have been consulting with a materials scientist from NASA on are application of kanthal in vaping and will be blogging on the following topics.

Winding with Stress (Tension)
Alumina and it's Characteristics
What causes Hot Legs
Why coils fire Micro (the effect)
Winding for NETs

Other topics will follow and all will be worded with the correct scientific terms but explained in laymans terms so everyone can understand.

:)cig
 

Jaime Bates

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I need those laymans terms. I have to admit I read and then re read and then re read again and sometimes even have to google a word. I try to do this because I guess I feel it is important information and something I need to learn but I have to admit it is frustrating. Keeps me behind in the thread and left feeling like an idiot.
I dont think mac uses terms that are hard to understand. Because once u understand the concept of making a true tensioned micro coil the terms make sense.
But I get what ur saying chanel that having instructions in user friendly terms is good. But also have the science behind it is good. Just my Two cents but I have had major success with Macs t.m.c technique and it works. The science behind also makes sense once you hvae done the hands on portion of it.

I am a hands on learner most people learn by doing so once I actually did the process it made sense. Then reading the science behind it everything clicked.
 

chanelvaps

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Very good video-learned a lot.
I have actually dedicated a table in my room to a coil building station (used to just be a nightstand) and I keep my gizmo set up all the time. A year ago I would not have stood for this type nonsense. Now it seems perfectly reasonable and I am thinking about installing a paper towel rack next to gizmo (lol) (family would have me committed at that point)

Just dropping this here.

Look Mom - NO Torch, NO squeeze - TENSIONED Micro Coil - YouTube

This is the easiest way I've found to make a tensioned micro coil. It's under $10 at michaels.

I'll also be trying a cigamajig in the near future thanks to the generosity of cig.
 

chanelvaps

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I am in no way dogging Macs ever so knowledgeable use of the English language or scientific terms. His input is devoured by me daily. I just sometimes feel like I am a toddler trying to understand the physics professors speech. (Science was never my forte) I will continue to learn from the many knowledgeable people in this forum and apply what I learn to "the art of vaping"

I dont think mac uses terms that are hard to understand. Because once u understand the concept of making a true tensioned micro coil the terms make sense.
But I get what ur saying chanel that having instructions in user friendly terms is good. But also have the science behind it is good. Just my Two cents but I have had major success with Macs t.m.c technique and it works. The science behind also makes sense once you hvae done the hands on portion of it.

I am a hands on learner most people learn by doing so once I actually did the process it made sense. Then reading the science behind it everything clicked.
 

cigatron

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I need those laymans terms. I have to admit I read and then re read and then re read again and sometimes even have to google a word. I try to do this because I guess I feel it is important information and something I need to learn but I have to admit it is frustrating. Keeps me behind in the thread and left feeling like an idiot.

Yes googling words. This is why I intend on posting blogs with the correct terminology. If you google "adhesion" you will never find out why your winds hold together when wound with tension. If you google "stress vs strain" and "how do springs work" you will! Do it and you will find that the internal strain in the wire caused by stress (tension winding) causes the coil to act as a tension spring and really has nothing to do with adhesion even though it appears that the coils are adhered together.
I love Mac's dedication and contributions to the vaping community. He and few others here are responsible for my better health. For those who want to either verify, investigate or learn more about the physics of vaping however the terms must be accurate. Just say'n

:)cig
 

rflash

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I dont think mac uses terms that are hard to understand. Because once u understand the concept of making a true tensioned micro coil the terms make sense.
But I get what ur saying chanel that having instructions in user friendly terms is good. But also have the science behind it is good. Just my Two cents but I have had major success with Macs t.m.c technique and it works. The science behind also makes sense once you hvae done the hands on portion of it.

I am a hands on learner most people learn by doing so once I actually did the process it made sense. Then reading the science behind it everything clicked.

I'm new to the forum and find this all fascinating, but I seem to be more of a visual learner, hard to picture what you all are talking about. Would like to see video of using a pin vise. I'm also starting to get the beginnings of a half-baked idea of using a guitar string peg winder to wind coils somehow lol.
 

Jaime Bates

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I'm new to the forum and find this all fascinating, but I seem to be more of a visual learner, hard to picture what you all are talking about. Would like to see video of using a pin vise. I'm also starting to get the beginnings of a half-baked idea of using a guitar string peg winder to wind coils somehow lol.
Im gonna try to get a a video together here soon. I know what ur saying though seeing it is different.
 

Monotremata

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Okay I think now the whole pin vise thingy makes sense to me haha. I just couldnt wrap my head around HOW you guys were anchoring the kanthal down since ultimately youre legs need to be perpindicular to the coil in the end.. I was googling 'wrap coil with pin vise' earlier and came across a crapload of threads both here and at like reddit on it and the thing that made it click was a post and a blog by our man Mac Tech Viper himself that made it go AH HA!!!
So to start, if you check this thread, http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...rapping-coils-coil-jig-metal-rods-etc-11.html, Mac is showing you how it works using a jewelers screwdriver to wrap it right off the spool, in post #109 about halfway down.. Im assuming hes holding the one leg on the body of the screwdriver right Mac? So this would be like the good old 'tape it to a screwdriver method'..

You can see what the results look like here, in one of Mac's blogs: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...88-pin-vise-perfect-tension-winding-tool.html

The whole thing that was stopping me up was just how that leg was being held, but I guess this is how you do it. Just stick the first 'leg' length of the coil directly into the chuck WITH the drill bit, start the coil where you want it, then twist away! That ONE picture in that blog coupled with the ONE picture in that thread just made me 'get it' in an instant hehe..

That said, just placed my first order for 100ft of some 32ga Kanthal on Amazon (for $3.99 even!!). Ive got like 20 PT2/Evod heads in stock, just ordered a full size PT2 to go with my mini.. Looks like well be going in now haha! Almost ordered an RBA actually just to get started with it, but eh, I like the PT2 mini so gonna stick it out and try the big one now.. Bonus points, MFS gives you a choice so I got to order the blue glass with it hehehe..
 

chanelvaps

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You got it right Mono-we're here for ya when you get started


Okay I think now the whole pin vise thingy makes sense to me haha. I just couldnt wrap my head around HOW you guys were anchoring the kanthal down since ultimately youre legs need to be perpindicular to the coil in the end.. I was googling 'wrap coil with pin vise' earlier and came across a crapload of threads both here and at like reddit on it and the thing that made it click was a post and a blog by our man Mac Tech Viper himself that made it go AH HA!!!
So to start, if you check this thread, http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...rapping-coils-coil-jig-metal-rods-etc-11.html, Mac is showing you how it works using a jewelers screwdriver to wrap it right off the spool, in post #109 about halfway down.. Im assuming hes holding the one leg on the body of the screwdriver right Mac? So this would be like the good old 'tape it to a screwdriver method'..

You can see what the results look like here, in one of Mac's blogs: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...88-pin-vise-perfect-tension-winding-tool.html

The whole thing that was stopping me up was just how that leg was being held, but I guess this is how you do it. Just stick the first 'leg' length of the coil directly into the chuck WITH the drill bit, start the coil where you want it, then twist away! That ONE picture in that blog coupled with the ONE picture in that thread just made me 'get it' in an instant hehe..

That said, just placed my first order for 100ft of some 32ga Kanthal on Amazon (for $3.99 even!!). Ive got like 20 PT2/Evod heads in stock, just ordered a full size PT2 to go with my mini.. Looks like well be going in now haha! Almost ordered an RBA actually just to get started with it, but eh, I like the PT2 mini so gonna stick it out and try the big one now.. Bonus points, MFS gives you a choice so I got to order the blue glass with it hehehe..
 
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