Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!

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MacTechVpr

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One thing to remember Mono is that the Steam Engine calculator uses combined leg length (both together). The length is also calculated from the point it leaves the coil till it makes contact, that would be at the top of the positive pin insulator. I usually allow .250 for leg length. If you look inside after you set the coil, I can't see it being anymore than 1/8" per leg. I've never measured it but I think it's pretty close.

Just My :2c:

vape On My Friends!

PS - Based on my PT2's

Thanks crg. Have commented on this but often forget to mention it. I think I recently had a post on how steam-engine works and you have to consider that we are measuring half wraps (legs exiting together, not opposed). You'll have to use advanced mode to do this. I noted how to juggle the figures to make the values stack up. It's all in here folks. Thx crg.

Good luck all.

:)
 

crg31953

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wow that seems very low. If my math is correct, .25 inches is about 6.35 mm or 3 mm for the shorter leg, and 3.35 mm ( approx. ) for the longer. That is way different from both my visual observation and measurements :confused:

Hey Maz,

Just out of curiosity, where are measuring from? As I said, I've never measured myself so I'm guessing here. If I look inside (and my eyes could be bad) I see about an 1/8" from where the leg leaves the coil to where it touches the positive pin, and from where it leaves the coil to where it touches the base (negative) may be slightly longer, but I've just rounded it out.

This setting the coil with a .0625 bit so the bit is resting on the flange.

I could be wrong, remember I'm an old fart! :laugh: Let me know buddy.

vape On My Friends!
 

crg31953

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Thanks crg. Have commented on this but often forget to mention it. I think I recently had a post on how steam-engine works and you have to consider that we are measuring half wraps (legs exiting together, not opposed). You'll have to use advanced mode to do this. I noted how to juggle the figures to make the values stack up. It's all in here folks. Thx crg.

Good luck all.

:)

Hey Mac,

I'm not understanding this, I understand the half wrap/full wrap difference. The point at which it leaves the coil is where it leaves the coil? Are we subtracting half wraps?

vape On My Friends!
 

MacTechVpr

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Hey Mac,

I'm not understanding this, I understand the half wrap/full wrap difference. The point at which it leaves the coil is where it leaves the coil? Are we subtracting half wraps?

Vape On My Friends!

The author calculates the difference. There is a selection box below the "target resistance" field entitled...Use neutral axis for wrap circumference. The coil calculation is absolute. The real variable here is lead length which may vary for every wind and substantially. But you're right. The value that matters is contact to the pin. I've used a variety of deductions over the past year. There are things we can't see like grommet deflection. Pin length varies slightly.

When measuring for a practical average you measure from the point the lead stops bending and is straightened by compression of the grommet. You may find after you measure a few that it is a point beneath the uppermost extension of the pin slightly and…it changes…based on the angle of your set, how deeply the wire cuts into the grommet (tension applied on the leads). In reality it varies for each wind and winder. So you're going to have to find your own happy medium based on your own practical experience what to discount from your calculation. Some days depending on how you're winding you may decide differently than others.

My tendency is to use the high side of any such calculation making the resistance target somewhat higher than actual. If I'm lower I'm tending to suspect the wind as shorted and frankly that's just fine by me. This would happen when it's wonky anyway. And I'm ok with rejecting a perfectly good wind under those circumstances rather than suffering a bad vape.

Now despite our theoretical look ups. We often end up with a result that doesn't quite approach the wire length. I was wrapping quite loose for some time because of silicone. In recent months I'm trying to get back to tighter. We need more table contributions correlated to steam-engine now that it's turned out to be such a formidable machine…and most of you guys probably have better hands than I do. On really good days I can hit precise wire lengths using the deduction. Most often I'm pleased if I'm within o.o5.

I'm using 12mm as a practical rule of thumb for my RDA builds since I do a lot of outboard stuff for airflow. Everyone's always said Protank leads are longer. Well they aren't but you'll have to see exactly how much if at all by taking your own measurements. Then you'll be able to close in tighter on resistance targets. But not using any deductions might have you as much as roughly o.12Ω or maybe more off target. Y'all will have to decide what's useful to you.

Consider that there are many variables like hand strength applied in set and wind, how consistent you were, inconsistencies in the wire, etc. I'm not going to enumerate them all but to say that our brains are an amazing tool. And we can detect these small variations in astounding detail. Adjust from wind to wind if we do enough of them or close together enough. I have come to the conclusion that it would take quite some instrument to be able to accomplish what we can in a few minutes with a simple tool, our hands and our amazing on board calculator.

The leads at the end of the day have played a big part all along on the broad range of results we all get. I'm pleased to see some interest in this. Precision improves greatly as you gain tension consistency and you build more often…especially if you also are consistent with your termination strategy. If not you can go way off every time and not know why. So lead angle is the important first step. No strategy and all the calculation in the world won't mean a thing.

Good luck all.

:)
 
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crg31953

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Alrighty Then,

I have been using Steam Engine for all of my builds. So here is my base -

30 gauge A1, .070 tool, 7/6 wrap, .250 leg length total and Use Neutral Axis unchecked = 1.5 ohms

30 gauge A1, .070 tool, 7/6 wrap, .375 leg length total and Use Neutral Axis checked = 1.5 ohms

Now I am sure that from the point the kanthal leaves the coil (straightens) to the point it makes Contact to both the positive pin and the base itself is not more than a total of .375. That's allowing .1875 per leg and to me that is a lot. I am able to see where they contact.

From what I've been reading on Steam Engine, this is what is described as leg length. This doesn't compensate for stretch or anything along those lines, and I could be completely wrong here but I don't believe .005 difference is anything to loose sleep over.

Now chanel and I are getting totally different readings, WHY IS THAT?

Vape On My Friends!

PS - I'm not trying to argue with any of my friends here! I'm just trying to learn!
 
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MacTechVpr

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Alrighty Then,

I have been using Steam Engine for all of my builds. So here is my base -

30 gauge A1, .070 tool, 7/6 wrap, .250 leg length total and Use Neutral Axis unchecked = 1.5 ohms

30 gauge A1, .070 tool, 7/6 wrap, .375 leg length total and Use Neutral Axis checked = 1.5 ohms

Now I am sure that from the point the kanthal leaves the coil (straightens) to the point it makes Contact to both the positive pin and the base itself is not more than a total of .375. That's allowing .1875 per leg and to me that is a lot. I am able to see where they contact.

From what I've been reading on Steam Engine, this is what is described as leg length. This doesn't compensate for stretch or anything along those lines, and I could be completely wrong here but I don't believe .005 difference is anything to loose sleep over.

Now chanel and I are getting totally different readings, WHY IS THAT?

Vape On My Friends!

PS - I'm not trying to argue with any of my friends here! I'm just trying to learn!

Your analysis is sound. Two things to consider. If you are consistent in termination both perpendicular to and in the direction of exit from the turn, i.e. across the grommet, your lead lengths will be slightly longer than a vert set. The run across is slightly longer than straight up-and-down. Secondly, apart from this, what you deduct from there will be determined by how tightly you terminate the leads (affects what you end up deducting from the overall average length you encounter for your builds).

Lead lengths upwards of .25" are more likely if you wind a conventional coil with that kind of loose lead tension. When the author talks about tension he's talking about compensating for strain in the wire. No he doesn't consider that in the calculation. But it will be reflected in our res returns because we are adding some stretch to the wire. How much depends on how much tension over the point of adhesion was applied and subsequently in lead strain.

On the whole those could add up to as much as .05Ω below the actual wire resistance reflecting also grommet compression.

Again as plainly as I can, the more you tighten leads at the set the more the wire presses at the grommet. This can bring the first connection point at the pin or the housing down a tad…increasing the lead length closer to that nominal 16mm overall. That is to say your deduction for the pin cylinder length gets reduced. The deduction that you're talking about taking off of the avg of 16mm.

So say you figured 2.25mm per leg (4.5mm) for the applicable pin cal length, make the leads more taught at set and you could shave off another mm in toto (both leads) or ~.027Ω for 30 AWG (8/36Ω/ft. / 304.8 mm/ft.) in grommet compression. Silicone yields a lot easier than the wire. This has the effect of increasing the resistance by making the practical wire length a bit longer (closer to the overall avg length).

Right now with firm grommets we should be enjoying about some of the closest readings to actual wire length. Taking the time to get a sense of the lead length we're creating with our termination strategy whether vertical, turn exit or a mix (neg cross, pos vert) will help you better predict your res result.

With some practice and time as I mentioned you start to get a feel for whether you're winding and setting at, above or below the actual wire resistance specification. That's when the res returns start to become really valuable in predicting just how good (or reliable) your vape will be.

We don't have to be calculating this stuff all the time. But staying in the groove does help.

Good luck all.

:)
 
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cigatron

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Good post Mac, like you I rarely use steamengine. After 200+ builds on various devices predicting res comes more intuitively.
As it is I don't even target res anymore (1.8-2.2 is fine for protanks) rather temperature/juice flow. Temp being controlled by wattage/voltage and draw effort; juice flow being controlled by wick type, coil dia and draw effort. These relationships in my experience become more critical for achieving a rewarding consistant vape once you have perfected the coil/setting techniques.

My best build to date for vapor production and flavor is A1, 8/7, 5/64", 1.95 ohm, tmc, kgd using larger id pos pin from
conceiled wick bdc head.

Have fun you all and keep speriment'n

:)cig
 
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super_X_drifter

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Yes, I never use any type of vape calculators - be it coil or juice.

I build and mix by seat of the pants, an ohms meter, applied knowledge and common sense.

At the end of the day, what matters is that I'm vaping within the limits of my equipment / power source and that the vape is the best I can achieve using the simplest methods.

I don't need any spreadsheets / formulas / calculators to tell me that my vape kicks AYuss :)
 

crg31953

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It would seem we are discussing a part of our builds that is difficult to have an absolute. Due to the fact that we are not machines, our joints aren't servos and we don't have PLC's for brains. The only absolute seems to be contact is pretty much where you trim your legs.

When I set my coils, at least in a PT they are as consistent as humanly possible. I usually cut one leg longer than the other, the long leg goes to one side and is inline with the wick slot, this is always the negative. The short leg is always positive and is inline with the opposite wick slot. I always tension the legs so that when I remove the tool I can feel drag on it when the bit is removed.

I don't do it this way because I'm fussy, I do it this way out of habit and routine consistency. If it is the norm to use .069 (16mm) as a standard then so be it, at least when we chat or provide help here we will all be working from the same base.

The bottom line in my opinion when your a member is to be able to help the next person and not to argue or judge. We all have opinions and differences yet we work together!

Vape On My Friends!
 

Monotremata

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Yeah steam engine is nice to learn the science but I'm not trusting it when it tells me I only need 4 wraps of 32ga to hit ~1.8ohms, when folks using 30ga are up to like 8 or 9 wraps sometimes. This is where places like ECF come in handy, you can actually see folks real time results in use and go from there!

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cigatron

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It would seem we are discussing a part of our builds that is difficult to have an absolute. Due to the fact that we are not machines, our joints aren't servos and we don't have PLC's for brains. The only absolute seems to be contact is pretty much where you trim your legs.acually the contact can occur at any point along the leg. Optimally where the legs enter the grommet from the coil.

When I set my coils, at least in a PT they are as consistent as humanly possible. I usually cut one leg longer than the other, the long leg goes to one side and is inline with the wick slot, this is always the negative. The short leg is always positive and is inline with the opposite wick slot.here you should center your coil on the mandrel and observe where the legs want to enter the grommet to make them perpendicular to the coil axis. This position changes with differing coil dia. and coil length. I always tension the legs so that when I remove the tool I can feel drag on it when the bit is removed.after tensioning the legs the mandrel may be too hard to remove without damaging/ shifting the coil. A gentle tilting of the mandrel on each side works great to remove the pressure of the mandrel against the head flange and provide additional tension to further straighten the legs. Not too much tilting though, just enough to releave the pressure.

I don't do it this way because I'm fussy, I do it this way out of habit and routine consistency. If it is the norm to use .069 (16mm) as a standard then so be it, at least when we chat or provide help here we will all be working from the same base.

The bottom line in my opinion when your a member is to be able to help the next person and not to argue or judge. We all have opinions and differences yet we work together!right on!

Vape On My Friends!

Hope this helps you get the allusive perfect set. When you think you've got a good one post a pic. That way we can all tear ya a new one! Just kidding........or am I? Lol.

:)cig
 

cigatron

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Yeah steam engine is nice to learn the science but I'm not trusting it when it tells me I only need 4 wraps of 32ga to hit ~1.8ohms, when folks using 30ga are up to like 8 or 9 wraps sometimes. This is where places like ECF come in handy, you can actually see folks real time results in use and go from there!

Sent from my GT-P3110 using Tapatalk
The illustration you used may not be as far off as you think. 32 is WAY higher in res than 30. 13.1 ohms per foot vs. 8.36. Add to that the fact that wire resistance varies depending on batch number and manufacturer. Also steamengine rounds up or down to the nearest wrap number.

By the time you factor in these variables and tension deformity you have the reason why I don't use it for detailed guidance. Rather just ballparking. And it is an excellent tool for that.

:)cig
 

Monotremata

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The illustration you used may not be as far off as you think. 32 is WAY higher in res than 30. 13.1 ohms per foot vs. 8.36. Add to that the fact that wire resistance varies depending on batch number and manufacturer. Also steamengine rounds up or down to the nearest wrap number.

By the time you factor in these variables and tension deformity you have the reason why I don't use it for detailed guidance. Rather just ballparking. And it is an excellent tool for that.

:)cig

Hmm. I would think thinner wire was less resistance but I had it backwards!! Took me awhile to get impedance down wiring speaker cabs too haha..

I guess it makes sense. I think the standard coils are 6 spaced wraps so perhaps the micro coil "effect" requires less?? Maybe I should've got 30ga hah. 4 just seems small but I bet its easy to wick straight!

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cigatron

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Hmm. I would think thinner wire was less resistance but I had it backwards!! Took me awhile to get impedance down wiring speaker cabs too haha..

I guess it makes sense. I think the standard coils are 6 spaced wraps so perhaps the micro coil "effect" requires less?? Maybe I should've got 30ga hah. 4 just seems small but I bet its easy to wick straight!

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Stock kanger coils are wound somewhere around 1/16" id with 6-8 spaced winds of 32. The spaces between the winds increases res per wrap (uses more wire per wrap). The tmc has no spaces therefore requiring less wire per wrap and yields a lower res per wrap. Kanger tanks are good with 1.8-2.2 or so.
Tell us what dia. Coil you want to wind, wire gauge and what battery(s) you use so we can help you.

:)cig
 
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Monotremata

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Yeah I tried to stick a 5/64 bit through one and its just a teeeeeny hair too big he he. I like the stock 1.8s so I was shooting for that. I was planning on a 1/16" 32ga coil for my MVP2. Doesn't seem like 4 wraps would hold together well, but even changing the calculator to 2.0 ohms gave the same results. Oh and I use the Advanced one and leave the coil spacing at its ridiculously small default of like 0.0000003 whatever.. My first couple will more than likely just be spaced like the stocks til I get this right.

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cigatron

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I couldn't find a 1/16 bit so I'll be using a 5/64". Oh and the "hand drill" I have is worthless as a pin vise. Its got like micro jewelers bits with it. The chuck doesn't even hold a 1/16" bit, its too small hehe.

32awg 6/5 on 5/64" will land you around 2.4 ohms. That'll rock on your mvp2.

Just so you know, kanger gets 1.8ohms with 32awg by using nr-r-nr wire. Only the coil wind is resistance wire. The legs are non-resistance wire. Wish I had a mini staking welder; I'd be doing the same thing!


:)cig
 
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