I understand. Smart Phones are not the best for reading 3mb PDF files.
Their Report draws on Many Published Sources. Both in the UK as well as in the USA and abroad.
Provaping verse Antivaping
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I understand. Smart Phones are not the best for reading 3mb PDF files.
Their Report draws on Many Published Sources. Both in the UK as well as in the USA and abroad.
That's the big Royal College position paper. It's not really a critical review of all the scientific data. It was also drafted by committee, so lots of wording is based on negotiations by those on the committee, not those who generated the data. It's not even really a review article, written by someone or a few people who do a literature search and generate some conclusions (also nice because you know who's writing the thing, and can determine if they're any good looking at evaluating the data in the first place). The fact they draw on multiple reports doesn't change the fact it really is not a "scientific paper" in the classic sense. It's a 200 page report that association chose to print out and disseminate.
Now it's still a useful document, but it is not the sum total of information available on vaping. I'm happy to see positions like this taken, but I still have criticisms of that very report. I think they took a bad approach at the 95% thing, because even they admit is a pretty arbitrary number. It sets a fairly high safety profile. I've said it in other posts I wish they hadn't done that, because if it turns out to be a 75% reduction (still damn good) the anti vapers will be going "see? Not as safe as you told everyone, that 20% more harmful than you tried to make us believe" And let's face it, there are a good number of nuts out there who will say exactly that.
Is it markedly safer? Yes. Is it 95% safer? I don't know, because even they don't know as there's no directly attributable study that supports that finding. Hey, maybe it's 99% safer than smoking, and safer than beach volleyball, but the numbers aren't in yet, so why set yourself up for being off by more than you thought?
The window sticker on the car states that it gets 45mpg. Does it? Not likely.[emoji6]
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Here is what Carl V Phillips has to say about 95% claim:
Saying e-cigarettes are “95% less harmful” is a very bad idea (part 143 of 10,000)
He is very critical about that statement and he is one of the scientists who is almost sure that e-cigarettes are around 98% more safer than smoking. And he is not alone.
Saying e-cigarettes are “95% less harmful” is a very bad idea (part 143 of 10,000)
He is very critical about that statement and he is one of the scientists who is almost sure that e-cigarettes are around 98% more safer than smoking. And he is not alone.
I'm 97.65% convinced this seems like a carousel that I can't get off of.[emoji6]
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Nice read, I didn't know who he was. Full disclosure, he is the the Science Director of CASSA so that is a paid opinion. Still, I understand the argument he's making, which honestly I agree with even less than the 95% from the RCP. Making a claim of 99% safer based on 10 years of experience, a good chunk of it with different vape gear and juices than are commonly used today is really pushing it. It makes the RCP guesstimate sound extremely conservative. And relying on extrapolation out of the currently limited amount of information out there to come up with a 99% safer thing sound more like statistical magic than a sound conclusion.
IMPORTANT, I'm not saying anything negative about vaping. I'm not saying anything negative about the RCP or Phillips. Disagreement is not trashing. Opinions are just that, opinions. At this point in time I don't see enough data to draw a factual conclusion of the precise degree of harm reduction gained by smoking. My opinion, based on my anecdotal use of vaping, and whatever materials I have read that appear legitimate enough to draw at least some conclusions, is that vaping is an excellent method of harm reduction for those who smoke. How much reduction cannot be quantified at this point, but the evidence is that it will likely be quite high as more long term data trickles in. There has been nothing published that would make me reconsider vaping or my changing my vape style.
I like vaping, I like throat hit and I like the feeling of nicotine. I am just afraid that in the future vaping will be founded very hazardous and I will be forced to quit like I was with cigarettes.
I am 100% with you. 10 years ago normal juice consumption was about 1-2 ml/day. Even 3 years ago it was 3-5 ml. His claim about 1% is not based on something even remotely scientific.
Paid scientific opinion is highly biased opinion. At least Royal College of Physicians was not paid neither by pro- nor anti-vaping initiative.
Some additional info. I used google scholar to find works by Carl V Phillips, and I had found this letter to editor (2015) of scientific journal: "Discrepant results for smoking and cessation among electronic cigarette users
Authors Brad Rodu DDS, Nantaporn Plurphanswat PhD, Carl V. Phillips PhD". Section CONFLICT OF INTEREST DISCLOSURES reveals that Dr. Phillips is partially supported by an unrestricted grant from British American Tobacco. Not only CASSA?
No one is forced to quit. You choose whatever path you want.
I wasn't forced to quit smoking, I chose to vape instead of smoke.
To force someone to do something, they have to take choice away from that person.
No one will have the power over my choice to vape. I've built up a stock so that doesn't happen.
I wasn't forced to quit smoking, I chose to vape instead of smoke.
To force someone to do something, they have to take choice away from that person.
No one will have the power over my choice to vape. I've built up a stock so that doesn't happen.
So guys how much less harmful are e-cigarettes in your opinion? 20%? 50%? 75%? At the end FDA will win with their claim: "All tobacco products are equally harmful!". And that's it.
Today nobody knows "how much". The only (almost) known thing: MUCH safer.
Interpretation of this "much safer" as 95% looks good to me. Even if I definitely see some minor bad influence of vaping on my body (taste buds, voice, coughing).
I'm with Willie, we'll do what we want and screw the FDA because they just do what they want too.
I can offer no opinion on safety, I'm not a scientist, and even if I were, I wouldn't offer up percentages. As Eskie has pointed out in the past, to offer a 95% or 99% safer figure is to really just open things up to be told that figure was a fail, down the line. And that will *of course* be exploited.
I can't say *how much* I agree that no one is FORCED to stop vaping. No one is even forced to stop vaping what they LIKE if they want to purchase a certain amount of things, and learn some skills, in which case, vaping will certainly be an option for the forseeable future, for the person who CHOOSES to do that. I'm not the kind of person who is unwilling to learn some things/buy some things to prepare for an uncertain future. Though I don't have, ah, a bunker or anything (yet).
My son really really wants one though, and vape equipment and storage areas take up a lot less than the pile of tobacco I was planning to put in my ficitious (at this time) bunker.
My husband was like.... "Anna.... you'd probably sleep in it...." LOL. NOT ANYMORE!! Victory!
Anna
I can't say *how much* I agree that no one is FORCED to stop vaping. No one is even forced to stop vaping what they LIKE if they want to purchase a certain amount of things, and learn some skills, in which case, vaping will certainly be an option for the forseeable future, for the person who CHOOSES to do that. I'm not the kind of person who is unwilling to learn some things/buy some things to prepare for an uncertain future. Though I don't have, ah, a bunker or anything (yet).
My son really really wants one though, and vape equipment and storage areas take up a lot less than the pile of tobacco I was planning to put in my ficitious (at this time) bunker.My husband was like.... "Anna.... you'd probably sleep in it...." LOL. NOT ANYMORE!! Victory!
Anna
I would have to see more of their work before i can say, but thus far it seems like they are looking at it honestly from both sides. This is what i like to see, research that provides the pros and cons of vaping. This means neither side has an agenda to prove one way or another their just giving what their findings are regardless if it supports vaping or not. That's the kind of research i am willing to fund.
This. Agree. VERY much!!
We've been stocking for a couple/few years now as well. And it feels like a good and wise decision.
As soon as the FDA starts talking i put my fingers in my ears and go la la la!!! I am so sick of them and their attempt to try and tell me what to do. I am sick of their one sided research and the reasons we all know why they do it. Somebody mentioned Dr. F. I do pay attention to his research because he is not afraid to call out his findings whether it supports vaping or not. I pay close attention to his research given. I don't see him as provaping or antivaping, he's just a doctor who seeks out the truth regardless of what it may be.
Just be clear i feel soo much better since i started vaping, and that's what i pay the most attention to. I highly doubt vaping will be found as harmful or more then cigs, which is why i continue to vape and help get others get off of cigs and switch to vaping. I do strongly feel their are things that are harmful like diketones and high temps, so there is a need for more research to help us vape safer. There are things we just don't know yet, like how long did it take for us to learn about diketones and high temps? so there is going to be more things we can improve upon to make vaping safer. I think if there is any harm it's going to be long term effects, that is if there are any. If we kept sucking down liquids high in diketones that may have been one of them. If we kept vaping at high temps that could have been another that caused long term effects. So i have no doubt there are going to be more findings. thing is the longer we go on vaping under certain conditions the more likely we will suffer long term effects. We just need more research without agendas to figure it out.
Just be clear i feel soo much better since i started vaping, and that's what i pay the most attention to. I highly doubt vaping will be found as harmful or more then cigs, which is why i continue to vape and help get others get off of cigs and switch to vaping. I do strongly feel their are things that are harmful like diketones and high temps, so there is a need for more research to help us vape safer. There are things we just don't know yet, like how long did it take for us to learn about diketones and high temps? so there is going to be more things we can improve upon to make vaping safer. I think if there is any harm it's going to be long term effects, that is if there are any. If we kept sucking down liquids high in diketones that may have been one of them. If we kept vaping at high temps that could have been another that caused long term effects. So i have no doubt there are going to be more findings. thing is the longer we go on vaping under certain conditions the more likely we will suffer long term effects. We just need more research without agendas to figure it out.
All of us serve as test subjects for vaping. Most of us have told our doctors that we've quit smoking through vaping and vaping is our new source of nicotine. Mine thinks it's great way to get away from the smoking habit. He agrees that it's a good substitute for the cigarette habit and he hasn't hounded me like he used to about smoking.
Is it safe? I don't know. What I do know is that my lungs are clear and I'm stronger when I do outside yard work. I don't huff and puff like I did when I smoked. I don't really look at vaping as a temporary crutch to quit smoking. I view it as a transition that I enjoy and one that I plan to continue doing.
It's the hand to mouth, inhale and exhale thing that I use as a tension reliever. When I quit smoking cold turkey my biggest problem was what to do with my hands after a meal. I was used to lighting a cigarette. Vaping provides whatever it is that calms the nerves.
Nicotine is probably part of it, but I was able to transition down from 24mg to 3mg easily once I decided to do that. I'm a happy guy at 3mg nic and have been at 3mg for several years now.
Is it safe? I don't know. What I do know is that my lungs are clear and I'm stronger when I do outside yard work. I don't huff and puff like I did when I smoked. I don't really look at vaping as a temporary crutch to quit smoking. I view it as a transition that I enjoy and one that I plan to continue doing.
It's the hand to mouth, inhale and exhale thing that I use as a tension reliever. When I quit smoking cold turkey my biggest problem was what to do with my hands after a meal. I was used to lighting a cigarette. Vaping provides whatever it is that calms the nerves.
Nicotine is probably part of it, but I was able to transition down from 24mg to 3mg easily once I decided to do that. I'm a happy guy at 3mg nic and have been at 3mg for several years now.
The first class I took in college was a health class I was forced to take but had no interest in. I cant remember why it was brought up but the professor was going on about how smoking was bad... (m'kay?) and she then proceeded to say "and dont tell me you vape, because thats even worse" with no bearing or anything after that the discussion moved on. Its at the point where people dont feel as if they need any evidence to go and convince people that vaping is bad because they dont like it.
Wonder how many smokers were in that class who are now saying "Vaping is bad, m'kay?" And I wonder how many people in that class decided to look up nothing further than an "authority" figure telling them it was bad.
Wonder how many smokers were in that class who are now saying "Vaping is bad, m'kay?" And I wonder how many people in that class decided to look up nothing further than an "authority" figure telling them it was bad.
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Before diketones there was the food coloring issue.
If you think about it we, as a group, are very inquisitive. I got into vaping just after, or around the time, people were talking about food coloring being an unnecessary additive to eliquid.
We are always looking for the safer(est) way to vape. There is always someone that is willing to take on these issues.
Before the food coloring there was an unsavory character that wasn't careful about how much nic he was actually putting into his liquids. One of our members, Kurt, stepped up to the plate and tested different bottles to see what those nic contents really were. That unsavory character wasn't in business for much longer.
I'm sure there is someone that can remember the name of that company...it's so close to my memory bank. There was a huge thread on it. Damn! So close to remembering...
I've always maintained that we do a remarkable job policing ourselves. And we continue to do so to this day.
We have Mooch that has devoted his time to battery safety. Especially when our knowledgeable members realized that some of these batteries were Not what their packaging said they were. He continues to test every brand that he comes across.
Recently we have Mike that has taken it upon himself to test different devices to see how hot our coils actually get.
Before these two, we have many others that have used their knowledge in different areas to help out our fellow vapers to get the safest products.
Oh, and vendors sure do pay attention to these threads. Wasn't long before liquid makers were pulling the food coloring out of their liquids!
We Get Things Done!
Looking back at all these people and issues they have taken on, I can't help but think that if the government was in charge of vaping, how long would it take them to alert us? Judging by their track record, nothing happens unless people die.
I am blessed to be vaping before government gets their hands in this industry.
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Marvelous post, Robin. Just superb.
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