Put down that E-cigarette!

[LaceyUnderall]

Hi, maybe something you wish to do first, is to PROVE that the liquid will NOT kill somebody, because at this moment NOBODY can prove it is safe (we believe it is, but we don't know for sure), nicotine is a very dangerous poison alone, but God knows what the manufacturers are putting in our beloved e-liquid. Everyone you lobby with will ask you if this thing is safe but that person maybe will requiere Scentific prove of it.

Agreed. Testing definitely needs to be done so e-smoking can be once and for all verified either safe or not. Vapor and liquid, they both need tested. As far as long term health effects, well those studies, I think, are almost impossible at this time and waiting for private studies could take years, resulting in thousands going back to tobacco. That is just silliness. (I know TB... it's my optimism).

However, the tobacco companies sell products that kill us and those have been tested and proven to kill us. They are still legal.

I do agree with Lithium that if you give it a little bit more time, I know that I am working on getting our liquids tested and I know that other suppliers are working on it as well. The suppliers take the future of the e-cig industry very seriously and there are many of us willing to do what needs to be done. We simply are not on the scale of the "mainstream" brands and are figuring out ways to work together to move the industry along.

Give us a little bit of time and you will see great things begin to happen. Then, your fight will be that much easier because you will have some data from North American labs to back up your cause.

If you can't wait, which I am prone to be like, align yourself with a group like Tobaccoharmreduction.org. Find out what they currently do and maybe see if they need your help? They could definitely give you further info to help your cause along.

 

[NumerousOne]

Agreed. Testing definitely needs to be done so e-smoking can be once and for all verified either safe or not. Vapor and liquid, they both need tested. As far as long term health effects, well those studies, I think, are almost impossible at this time and waiting for private studies could take years, resulting in thousands going back to tobacco. That is just silliness. (I know TB... it's my optimism).

However, the tobacco companies sell products that kill us and those have been tested and proven to kill us. They are still legal.

I do agree with Lithium that if you give it a little bit more time, I know that I am working on getting our liquids tested and I know that other suppliers are working on it as well. The suppliers take the future of the e-cig industry very seriously and there are many of us willing to do what needs to be done. We simply are not on the scale of the "mainstream" brands and are figuring out ways to work together to move the industry along.

Give us a little bit of time and you will see great things begin to happen. Then, your fight will be that much easier because you will have some data from North American labs to back up your cause.

If you can't wait, which I am prone to be like, align yourself with a group like Tobaccoharmreduction.org. Find out what they currently do and maybe see if they need your help? They could definitely give you further info to help your cause along.

Nice find Lacey, I'm here in the states and would love to send this directly to Obama. We have a local congressman here who has made it a long way and would be all over this if presented properly.

But from experience as a citizen of this country, before we get involved with lobbying, I think we should make a concerted effort to bring this issue to the press' attention once we have all our facts in order. I personally wouldn't mind doing it, it would be a great service to humanity.

I am greatfull to the people here for the education I have received via this forum in the past week or two.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

We have a local congressman here who has made it a long way and would be all over this if presented properly.

But from experience as a citizen of this country, before we get involved with lobbying, I think we should make a concerted effort to bring this issue to the press' attention once we have all our facts in order. I personally wouldn't mind doing it, it would be a great service to humanity.

I am greatfull to the people here for the education I have received via this forum in the past week or two.

You are correct. It is just like an expensive meal. It has a lot to do with presentation. Like I said, we are working to get everything in order and users cannot lose sight in the fact that even though e-smoking has been around for 2 years (most of that very quiet), the e-cig is still not mainstream. And even though we are all very aware of it, many are not. Numbers is extremely important. Could you imagine if we were able to convert at least 1 million smokers to e-cigs in the US alone? There would definitely be a huge fight if they were taken away.

Every time there is a new article or a new kiosk, we suppliers know it because we can see orders start popping up in new cities. My estimation is that within 6 months, all of the US will know about this. At that time, we must have a unified front of suppliers and our testing should be done on individual supplier levels.

Health Canada is going to make their decision by the end of March and that will be extremely telling. My estimation is that the FDA will probably follow shortly there after with some type of statement. That's only 30 days away!

I don't know about you guys, but the last two months has felt like six! So much going on.

Oh... and Welcome NumerousOne! Glad to have you here.

 

[TropicalBob]

Lacey: Like you, I want this practice to remain available. I'm not about optimism or pessimism. I'm exclusively about reality -- and dealing with it.

I think publicity will prove negative. Just read the public "comments" below any article and you'll see how well this "deception" and "addiction" is perceived. This remains "smoking" to many. Smoking is taboo. Smokers are an unwanted minority headed to extinction.

Numerous: You, like so many, are blinded to reality by your passion. Step back and look at what we are doing and are proposing be made somehow legal. We are using devices made in China to vaporize a poisonous and additive liquid that is not batch-tested or approved or regulated in any way. It is not even properly packaged or labeled. We have no studies to show this is safe for any product other than Ruyan. We have no scientific proof this is NRT -- and are only now beginning one test to see if e-smoking works to get smokers off cigarettes. We pay no special taxes while evading a vast amount of special tobacco taxes. We have only enemies with Big Tobacco and Big Pharmaceutical.

Your experiences and the anecdotes of others are not proof. In essence, they mean nothing to an agency like the FDA. Absolutely zero. You can wish that weren't true, but it is. Only clinical trial data is important. E-smoking lacks that proof of safety and efficacy.

The backlash has already begun. WHO's statements, the FDA emails, the Ebay ban, the Google removal of e-cig advertising, and this quote from a CBS story: "The FDA told us it is investigating why these are being sold. The agency also says it's seizing electronic cigarettes at customs as shipments come into the country."

The clock is indeed ticking and it's one minute till midnight.

Lacey's trying to find a way to help us all. And we all need to do that. NOW.

 

[Mouser]

I posted the following as my comment to her blog. We shall see if it actually makes it through:

Clearly a blog post by someone that hasn't wrestled with nicotine addiction and all the ineffective NRT (patches, gum, etc.)

Summer Johnson, PhD, writes this:

"...they are not for cessation, they are not nicotine alternatives, they are just plain dangerous...."

Dangerous, compared to what... cigarettes?

How can you claim this is "not an alternative?" I have been smoke free for over a month thanks to these vaporization devices. I have never lasted more than a week on a patch or gum. I hope to stop altogether, eventually.

That being said, this is not at all a "cessation device" -- it is a device that allows a person, as they see fit, to address their nicotine addiction. If a person can wean themselves from the horrible addiction to tobacco products with this type of device, then I say that is great news. If they can use such a device to wean themselves of nicotine addiction eventually, then even better.

I think I missed the motivation of the blog post, Summer. Was it a well-thought out diatribe that just seriously lacked substance and supporting facts, or just something you posted whilst you were bored?

Here's something to get you started:

http<colon-slash-slash>www<dot>healthnz<dot>co<dot>nz/aboutus<dot>htm

Dr Murray Laugesen , of New Zealand, would like to eventually outlaw tobacco cigarettes. However, as a form of "harm reduction" he supports the devices you just flippantly dismissed.

Here's a shortcut to his findings to this point: http<colon-slash-slash>www<dot>healthnz.co.nz/Portland2008ECIG.pdf

Since he didn't compare to candy cigarettes, you may not be in the same realm. If not, please don't post such drivel on subjects you clearly know nothing about.

(I had to mangle the web links for this post as I'm still a newbie)

 

[LaceyUnderall]

Mouser - Wonderful response. Good for you and good for us! If more people come out of the woodwork and start defending the ecig, then notice will be taken.

 

[stpeters]

Mouser - Wonderful response. Good for you and good for us! If more people come out of the woodwork and start defending the ecig, then notice will be taken.

Well said Ms Underall, couldn't agree more. For every negative write-up, we need a dozen (well mannered) objections posted back. This presents the general reading public with a slightly more balanced view of these devices.

There are more people out there then most of us think that will simply follow what they perceive as the "popular opinion". Herd mentality and all that. Politicians being a particularly vulnerable lot...

 

[Gravity_Tester]

Sorry if this has already been referenced. I'd posted about E-cigarettes in another forum and someone posted this blog in the thread. It's pretty harsh.

(link removed due to posting restriction)

Reading things like that makes my skin crawl.

I responded thusly:

"My fear, with any product that masquerades as a nicotine delivery device (including candy cigarettes), is that e-cigarettes give the appearance that smoking is a morally acceptable behavior."
Madam, candy cigarettes are not a "nicotine delivery system" in any fashion. People who use e-cigarettes quite probably use them for various reasons-cost (tobacco is exorbitantly taxed), the ability to indulge where they otherwise might not be able to, and even with the intent of using them as smoking cessation devices.
Rather than inhale tobacco smoke (which contains various toxins wholly separate from nicotine), users of the e-cigs get some water vapor, nicotine and propylene glycol or glycerine (PG and glycerine are used in quite a few consumer products, including toothpaste-go check for yourself, I'll wait...) and some flavor.
Not a health food, but not tar, arsenic, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and cyanide either.
That said, the real sticking point in the bit of your comment I quoted is your desire to legislate morality. Rape, murder, robbery and assault are acts that are not morally acceptable. Smoking is unhealthy at the most. Using an electronic cigarette is in no way comparable to murder, at least not to a rational and well adjusted individual. It is not the job of government to create legislation against actions taken by mature adults.
I would never advocate underage smoking, and I support education programs in an attempt to curb it. That said, what I, as a responsible adult, ingest is my own business. If there is immorality involved in this subject, it is the desire of some to exert control over others, simply because what they are doing (smoking/e-cigs/smokeless tobacco/Red Bull/alcohol/firearms ownership-pick your busybody poison) is, simply put, "icky".

 

[Parallx]

Here is my response to the good 'Doc:

"I have stopped smoking using a dse901. I have since switched to 0 nicotine fluid, which I make myself, using nothing but Propylene Glycol and water based candy flavoring. In my workplace, no less than 12 people have already QUIT smoking, 4 of them stopped using the vaporizer as well.

First of all, thanks for deciding on behalf of myself and other supporters of this device that your opinion is the correct one. I guess all the research and studies I've read must be wrong, since without any evidence at all you've declared them "bad." That's a fine scientific hypothesis, doc.

What I decide to put into my body is MY business, not yours. I'm not sure what kind of moral trip people must be on to try to control every facet of human existence, citing moral superiority and half researched nonsense. Don't like them? No problem. As a doctor, you're free to have an opinion on the health aspects of these devices, but I'd suggest you back it up with some real facts. Would you tell your patients to keep smoking real cigs? No, you'd likely just sit on a high horse and claim that smoking anything is stupid, and you'd be right. You'd be a poor doctor, but you'd be right. For generations, parents and teachers have used the same, "Drugs are bad." logic to utter failure. Like most impressionable youth, they'd like to know why. When you don't know enough to have that answer ready, you undermine your argument, valid as it may be.

I hope to have kept a cooler head than many respondents before me, but it wasn't easy. You might want to post a follow up article detailing what "noxious chemicals" are released with the nicotine and propylene glycol."