Question about full sized russian / kayfun 3.1 catch cup

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sunnata

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Hello,

I have been testing different builds, and replaced my coils nearly every day since I received the russian.
I'm happy with my latest build, and want to leave testing alone for a bit.

I was wondering, when you guys keep the same coil going for long periods, how do you deal with juice that might be left at the catch cup?

I tried blowing thru the airhole a few times, but seems to take forever. So I ended up removing the center pin, carefully cleaned everything up, and had no real issues, other than thinking it would have been much much faster to just add a new coil...

please share your thoughts and methods whenever using them for long periods and doing dry burns on the same coil, considering the left over juice from the catch cup

thanks!
 

sunnata

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NzoYfcW.png
 

State O' Flux

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Consider this...

There should be, if the wick and coil are done correctly and a proper vacuum (low pressure) is maintained, no reason for juice to drain into the "catch cup"... or rather, the collector tank as Svoe Mesto refers to it.
One of the main differences between the 3.1 or full size Kayfun/Russian and the Lite/Lite+/R91% units is the lack of a collector tank. When built correctly, these attys don't suffer from juice draining out the air vent system... and so, no appreciable amount of juice should be accumulating in your collector tank.

Most juice "run off" into the air vent or collector tank, if any, occurs during the initial fill, or refill. This is due to a lack of vacuum in the "wet" side of the tank assembly. All these atomizers use "pressure differential" (please read to have a better understanding) to maintain a pressure boundary (as opposed to a wick type seal required for larger air orifices) between the wet or juice side and the dry or atomizing chamber side of the atomizer. If that pressure differential is not created - or immediately developed after assembly, then you run into drainage into the air vent system - in the case of the 3.1/Russian, it goes into the collector tank - in the Lite/R91% version, directly into the users hands.

I fill all (as do at least 75% of users) my Kayfun/Russian devices through the top cap, never using any "filler screw". Follow this guide:

1. Cover the air vent hole. (This prevents juice flow into the atomizer chamber by creating sufficient positive pressure to repel it's flow threw small orifices)
2. Remove top cap and fill from top, to top of tank section.
3. Install top cap 1 to 2 turns... sufficient to engage the chimney seal o-ring. (Too far, and you may force juice into the atomizer chamber)
4. Invert Atomizer. (Inverted, the pressure of installing the cap the remainder of the way cannot force juice into the chamber as the fluid level is below it)
5. Uncover air vent hole. (Now, air pressure, with the fluid "in between" the pressure differential can force excess air pressure out the vent - not juice)
6. Complete tightening of top cap.
7. Return atomizer to the functional position. (Done correctly, now there is a vacuum above the juice (created when the atomizer was returned to the upright position and the juice flowed to the bottom) and positive or atmospheric pressure in the atomizing chamber - a "pressure boundary")

The 4-7 parts are all done in one relatively smooth motion. If it leaks (and this is most obvious with Lite+/R91% atomizers - not so much with collector tank versions), with the vent hole covered, take several draws, lifting your finger near the very end of each draw... this will serve to create a vacuum in the juice tank.
Note: This same series of events should occur when filling a Kayfun atomizer from a bottom or even side fill screw - but too many users "seal" the hole when filling, both over filling the tank so that there is an insufficient negative air chamber, and not allowing pressure to escape - the result is, too often, no vacuum in the tank.

Another consideration is the position (spacing) of the coil relative to the positive deck/screw-air tube. Too close, and juice can find a path to the air vent... and there really is no such thing as too far, within the physical confines of the chimney assembly that is. A good spacing gap is 1mm+. I tend to settle around 1.5mm for a horizontal/compressed coil. Vertical coils... well, that would require another few paragraphs to explain, and I don't have any indication you're using them, so no call to make you suffer through reading that as well. ;-)

The last consideration is wick. Too much wick or too much wicking ability (capillary action) can actually be a bad thing. Most folks simply use too much wick. Be it cotton or silica or ekowool... too much.
As an example using cotton, I finally settled on a modestly compressed and rolled wick that, before installation into the coil (28 ga. 1.5mm ID), is small enough in diameter to insert it into the coil with no special theatrics. It's small enough to insert simply by threading it through with one hand - with a minimum amount of drag. That gives you an idea of just how small in diameter it actually is. In your hand - slightly less than the ID of the coil. Finished length is between 7/8" and 1" - produced simply by cutting off the excess tails with scissors.

So, in closing, lets review:

  • A proper tank vacuum is required and created during filling/assembly, or, if need be, can be produced after the fact.
  • Proper coil spacing, providing at least a 1mm or more gap between coil and positive deck block, will reduce and/or eliminate juice transfer into the air vent screw/collector tank.
  • Too much wick/juice retention can produce too much juice available at the coil, which can run off into the air vent screw/collector tank.

Addendum: I wanted to add, then forgot - the Svoe Mesto user manual for the 3.1 in PDF form - please scroll to page 9 (second and following paragraphs) for an alternate version of an explanation of how pressure differential systems work. Some find the "straw & finger" explanation a bit easier to visualize and understand.
 
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sunnata

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:blink:

wow..

I don't even know what to say..

"no call to make you suffer through reading that as well"...suffer??! suffer? really?

I can't recall reading a more enjoyable reply to any question I have ever posted in a forum before. My most sincere thank you for taking the time to explain it so well, and for all the great advice.

It's also great to hear that it's simply user error. With your priceless advice, I should be able to fix it.

THANK YOU!





btw, for the record, at the risk of boring you guys to death:
- I usually mess up in the 'smooth motion' required for the top fill.. :facepalm:
I have done it properly before, but I still prefer to use the fill port most of the times
- coil height... mine are always very very near to the airhole.. (as close as possible, without touching. I've only done touching once, with a vertical coil, but I didn't like how much the tank was heating up, went back to horizontal builds)
- wicks might already be properly sized..well...maybe..

a couple pictures of a recent build. I did have one of those 'oops' moments with the top cap refil, and the coil sits very low, as I normally build them. When I took it apart, it did have juice at the collector tank:
clRieAm.png


ZbabBD5.png






:toast:
 

State O' Flux

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:blink:
wow..

I don't even know what to say..

"no call to make you suffer through reading that as well"...suffer??! suffer? really?

I can't recall reading a more enjoyable reply to any question I have ever posted in a forum before. My most sincere thank you for taking the time to explain it so well, and for all the great advice.

It's also great to hear that it's simply user error. With your priceless advice, I should be able to fix it.

THANK YOU!
You're welcome sunnata. I saw that no one was interested in, or knew how to, answer your question - and so I took what I saw as an opportunity, to delve a bit more deeply into the subject.
wacko1.gif


From the excellent photos you've provided - seeing your obvious talents in coil making - I find no reason to cover that issue - you have it well in hand. The only things I can see - and there are only 2 - are:

1.That your coil, as you've determined, is too close to the air screw/positive deck.
2. That although your - what appears to be cotton - wick is a good and not overly large, absorbed or expanded in diameter... perhaps a bit too long. Not an excessive amount mind you, but you might want to experiment with something between what you have now, and the wick tales just barely touching the juice decks.

And an item more in the nature of a personal finding rather than an issue - Your direction of coil wrap (the over/under aspect) is perfect and makes for easy attachment under the screw heads.
I can only suggest that you might want to increase the diagonal angle between screws. This would reduce your net resistance a small amount, and position your wick exits from the coil closer to the ends of the juice decks. More at 1:30/7:30 than 12:30/6:30.

As you've stated, you "usually mess up in the 'smooth motion' required for the top fill". Perhaps, now that you have a more complete understanding of what you're trying to accomplish in the process, you will have more frequent success.
I have to admit, I get it right only about 80% of the time at best, and have developed an automatic habit of taking a few draws with finger over the vent hole to insure an adequate negative pressure (vacuum) in the tank.
To that end, I never have leaks from any Lite/R91% attys, and never any more than a "film" of juice in collector tank attys.

Best of luck... you are just a few minor adjustments away from perfecting your build.
i_am_so_happy.gif
 

sunnata

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Thank you for all the kind words and for sharing your ideas with us. I've learned more in the past two hours than I did in the past 2 weeks while using this thing.

The attention to details honestly blows me away too.. simple to understand, yet almost obvious solutions, that make complete sense as soon as you read them. Like spining the coil a few degrees, tweaking things to perfection... and being able to share that knowledge with such precision.. my hat's off to you, sir

Shorten wicks (yep, cotton), raise and spin coil, take a few draws with covered airhole and vape til I drop. seems like a proper end for the evening.

:thumbs:
 

State O' Flux

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Watch out now sunnata... too many kudos and I'll go all - verklempt.
crazy.gif


What I would like to hear from you, at some point, and perhaps in this thread (or a new one - doesn't matter) is the results/findings of any adjustments you might make. I know it's a PITA, but if you can offer up a bit of objective commentary - that'd be great.

C
 

scrutineer

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I've had the same coil in my KF 3.1 for ~ the last 5 weeks, only rinsing out, changing the cotton and dryburning, every 5 days or so. Never had any flooding; just a few slight gurgles or so; and never a leak from the air inlet. And had not removed the catch cup during that time.

So yesterday I figure I'll treat it to a new coil and a complete breakdown and cleanup. Off comes the catch cup and there were about 3-4 drops worth of e-liquid in there. It wasn't all that nasty-looking either.
 

Bill's Magic Vapor

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State O' Flux

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State O'Flux nailed it again. Very nice, my friend. For those of you that don't know about Bernoulli's Principle, SOF has an excellent blog on this process as well. My favorite post this last year:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...type-atomizers-new-vapists-how-they-work.html

Great job. I also use the top fill method most of the time as written, and have no problems, and no leaks. Very nice!
Thank you Bill. You're a kind and considerate friend... who relishes in seeing me :blush:
 

sunnata

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What I would like to hear from you, at some point, and perhaps in this thread (or a new one - doesn't matter) is the results/findings of any adjustments you might make. I know it's a PITA, but if you can offer up a bit of objective commentary - that'd be great.

Remember this old thread, Flux? It seems like ages..maybe it's just me?

Sigh.. I guess that would be subjective commentary, let me start over.. :p

It's been about 20+ days running the same coil. During this period, I took apart the collector tank only twice (about 1 1/2 week ago, then again today). This is how the coil looked like:

qfdm68X.png


First noticeable change, is that I adjusted the diagonal as you suggested. Height was also adjusted, to 1mm+.

Wick configuration was...(can I just blame truman?)..changed often.. Playing around with different amounts of cotton, searching for the perfect wick.. So that is a variable that changed a bit.

Other things worth mentioning.. I have no other tank on rotation. This coil was pretty much running all day, every day. I'm not entirely sure, but I would guess around 6ml's+ per day on average.

New wick and dry burn after about 2 or 3 tanks, depending on flavor used.

After around 10+ days of use, today's results:

eae8V6K.png


4n59VNj.png


It's hard to be precise, but it seems like I was getting similar results, after just 2 days of use. So perhaps still far from perfect, but a huge improvement, no doubt.

Please let me know your thoughts if you get a chance. And again, thank you for all the help!
 

Bunnykiller

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started thinking about this "cover the air hole" fill method and came across an issue. If the tank is being filled from the top, and the chimney is not sealed, what keeps the fluid from filling the coil chamber? I can see if the chimney is sealed as the tank is being filled will keep the fluid out of the coil chamber,,, ( think empty upside down glass in sink of water holding air) but since the chimney isnt being sealed in this method, how does restricting airflow thru the air tube stop the juice from going into the juice channels?? I think too much sometimes...
 

dice57

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It's just magic, hole cus poke us. lmao.

Atmospheric air pressure stabilizes the pressure differential between the outer tank and the inner atomization chamber. The funnel top also restricts the amount of pressure release through the top. Since we are talking about capillary size juice channel, there has to be more pressure in the outer chamber than in the inner chamber to bring the juice level up past a certain level. Buy covering up the air intake hole with a finger, you are stopping the air pressure from being reduce when acted on by the slight pressure increase brought on by the juice being filled. In capillary pressure equalization the size of the channel reduces the level of equalization. Try and recall the Mr Wizard films shown in grade school, where Mr wizard filled up multiple diameter capillary test tube all connected at the bottom but open to the atmosphere, they would all seek out levels of equalization as related to the size differential. The thin space between the tank and the containment ring also reduces the amount of total pressure that can be applied by the total volume of juice.

Never mind, going back to "It's Majic" time to go to sleep. lol
 

State O' Flux

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sunnata said:
It's hard to be precise, but it seems like I was getting similar results, after just 2 days of use. So perhaps still far from perfect, but a huge improvement, no doubt.
Not perfectly perfect, due to certain small but literally inescapable holes in the theory - and I encounter only 80% success at best (which is usually more than enough success to appease me) - but far superior to previous collector tank... collections. :D

Bunnykiller said:
I think too much sometimes...
Bunnykiller is awake and inquisitive... which is often more than enough to poke a small but literally inescapable hole (hmm... I seem to have heard that phrase before) into a otherwise working solution. :laugh:

No one ever said that there wasn't an, ah... inconsistency to the physics of it (well, I may have alluded to it - but then I'm known to quietly glaze over certain laws of physics to express a working solution)... but the process does seems to work fairly well and repeatably, despite the one - moderately sized - hole in the concept.

Were we working with liquids the consistency of water, and/or the juice channels were any larger, or there wasn't a bit of wick in the way to function as a temporary mop - stemming the juice tide for the few moments we were filling and capping - Mr. Wizard would have our nuts for such physical abuse of physics. ;-)
 
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