Question for those who think we should not vape where we can not smoke...

[Uncle Willie]

You think it is a loaded question.
I think people who think it is a loaded question need to wake up.


Forget for a moment that I completely disagree...
I don't really see how that is relevant to the conversation.

When a thread is started on a divided subject, and begins with terminology such as "Draconian" .. it is quite simply, loaded at the get go with what the OP wants to hear .. IE support for their view ..

I have always made my feelings clear on the use of a PV .. I find it to be harmless to the Public at large, yet lacking in Public education of such and thus, the duty of the Manufacturers to educate the pubic .. which is also sorely lacking in the current environment .. that, in and of itself, seems to be the rational and logical approach .. at least in my opinion .. if some feel a more militant stance / fighting the good fight piecemeal by opposing proposed legislations is what the answer is, then go for it .. however, it is a piecemeal fight .. putting out one fire and moving to the next, and the fires keep popping up .. garnering the acceptance of the device will require winning over the hearts and minds of the non-using public is the long term solution .. if anyone feels this is incorrect, fine .. however, to me, folks are not seeing the forest for the trees .. sorry to use a cliché ..

Putting it another way .. was it not education and media that created the current tobacco environment .. ?? We should be using the same tools to further our own cause ..

 

[Orb Skewer]

Here is the Question

"I really want to know where those of you who ascribe to this "do not vape where you can not smoke" philosophy stand on these questions.
And more importantly, I want to know if you are prepared to fight against the entire idea of equating vaping to smoking."

Your reasoning for your stance, and will you fight this-to sum it up.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Now it appears we are losing on a much more consistent basis, and I believe I know exactly why...
First of all they are trying to sneak these by now, do we don't know about them and can't organize opposition.

But when they can not sneak them by, the ANTZ are putting forth far more effort than they used to.
And more importantly, they are matching or passion and conviction, only they are doing it with lies and misinformation.

Why we may lose is precisely why education and media are the key to winning .. you must consider the odds .. 80% non-smoking public that have been convinced, rightfully so, that smoking is bad .. the PV must be positioned as a safe / safer alternative that is generally harmless to the 80% .. while we gripe about the ANTZ, we should be spreading the real information in an effort to counter the misinformation .. otherwise, they win ..

 

[zoiDman]

Why we may lose is precisely why education and media are the key to winning .. you must consider the odds .. 80% non-smoking public that have been convinced, rightfully so, that smoking is bad .. the PV must be positioned as a safe / safer alternative that is generally harmless to the 80% .. while we gripe about the ANTZ, we should be spreading the real information in an effort to counter the misinformation .. otherwise, they win ..

I always thought from the time I started Vaping, Late 2009, that the OEM's and then Later the Retailers/Wholesaler's would band together and do this. But they just never did.

Then the e-Liquid Trade Organizations formed. But to many, they Appeared to be a Double Edged Sword.

It's Funny. About the Only Entity which has reached out and Touched a Significant portion of the population is the same Entity that has received the Most Negative Reviews here on the ECF. Blu.

And Blu is owned by a Tobacco Company.

What a Twist eah?

 

[Uncle Willie]

Here is the Question

"I really want to know where those of you who ascribe to this "do not vape where you can not smoke" philosophy stand on these questions.
And more importantly, I want to know if you are prepared to fight against the entire idea of equating vaping to smoking."

Your reasoning for your stance, and will you fight this-to sum it up.

The same answer I use on every thread like this that I post on .. "Until concrete regulations are in place as to the exact where and when a PV can be used, I use what I consider common sense .. I'm not going to puff up at a Church, at a Theater, at a Hospital, I live in a State that initiated a State wide public ban for indoor areas quite some time ago and I am not so tethered to my PV that I can't put it down when rational thinking says you should put it down.. "

I fight regularly .. but my fight is thru teaching the uninformed .. those that want to "fight" may want to consider giving a presentation to any number of your local Civic organizations such as the Kiwanis Club and others .. these folks are always looking for a speaker ...

Happy .. ??

 

[Uncle Willie]

I always thought from the time I started Vaping, Late 2009, that the OEM's and then Later the Retailers/Wholesaler's would band together and do this. But they just never did.

Then the e-Liquid Trade Organizations formed. But to many, they Appeared to be a Double Edged Sword.

It's Funny. About the Only Entity which has reached out and Touched a Significant portion of the population is the same Entity that has received the Most Negative Reviews here on the ECF. Blu.

And Blu is owned by a Tobacco Company.

What a Twist eah?

Yes, the irony is the one Company that has probably done more to actually educate the Public on the PV is the one that gets slammed the most .. or at least a lot ..

The thing is, we all want the same thing .. yet we are unable to really agree on how we get there .. thus, being fractured in such a way causes various directions to be flown off into .. sound familiar .. ??

 

[Robino1]

What is somewhat Ironic about these threads, and something that Many Members Don't think about, is that this is Exactly how Many e-Cigarette Use Policies are Formulated/Decided.

The Powers that be gather and the Pro's and Con's are weighed. General and Individual Scenarios are Discussed. Data is Presented and Data is Argued over. And Sides are Formed and Lines are Drawn.

But Sooner or Later someone who either has a Cooler Head, or is just Sick of the Entire Process, says...

"Look Folks, We can do this Forever and Still Never come to a Solution that Everyone Agrees with. I say we put it to a Simple Up/Down Vote.

Do we Ban e-Cigarette Use where Smoking is Not Allowed?

Do we Not Ban e-Cigarette Use where Smoking is Not Allowed?

I say we Call a Vote."

And of Course those For a Ban Vote Yes. And those Against it Vote No. But what is Interesting is that the People in the Middle, those who have Mixed Feeling and can see Both Sides, they Mostly Vote for the Ban.

I can see both sides and am frustrated at the all or nothing stance by the ANTZ. I definitely am against a ban. Granted, I don't have mixed feelings, I can see where people are coming from but certainly don't agree with those that don't want to read the recent research.

 

[DC2]

When a thread is started on a divided subject, and begins with terminology such as "Draconian" .. it is quite simply, loaded at the get go with what the OP wants to hear .. IE support for their view ..

It never occurred to me that anyone would NOT think anti-smoking laws are becoming increasing draconian.
I really don't know what to say to anyone who doesn't think that.

I have always made my feelings clear on the use of a PV .. I find it to be harmless to the Public at large, yet lacking in Public education of such and thus, the duty of the Manufacturers to educate the pubic .. which is also sorely lacking in the current environment .. that, in and of itself, seems to be the rational and logical approach .. at least in my opinion .. if some feel a more militant stance / fighting the good fight piecemeal by opposing proposed legislations is what the answer is, then go for it .. however, it is a piecemeal fight .. putting out one fire and moving to the next, and the fires keep popping up .. garnering the acceptance of the device will require winning over the hearts and minds of the non-using public is the long term solution .. if anyone feels this is incorrect, fine .. however, to me, folks are not seeing the forest for the trees .. sorry to use a cliché ..

Putting it another way .. was it not education and media that created the current tobacco environment .. ?? We should be using the same tools to further our own cause ..

Nothing to disagree with there. Not a single thing.

 

[Anjaffm]

Ooohhhh.... it is all the fault of
.. the media
... the suppliers
......the vapers
..... those who fight
........ those who do not fight
.......... all of the above
............ none of the above
..............Santa Claus
................. the Tooth Fairy

Goodness gracious, if I think of all the time that could be spent on ... what was that... feeding the homeless... instead of engaging in a game of blaming everybody and whining and complaining ..... oh yes, the homeless would sure get a nice meal

As those who are engaged in that game of blaming and whining are obviously not in the least interested in why the media are "reporting" mostly nonsense, why cities enact vaping bans (.. can't do more than post a link - twice.. ) and why a lot of things are happening which have nothing whatsover to do with.. Santa Claus... it would be a complete waste of time even attempting to educate them on anything.

Do remind me to shed a tear for the poor poor whiners when I have time.

And now I will go and feed ... animals. Better use of my time.

..........
Little addition - as the subject is money. Everybody has time for money.
Oh, dear Uncle Willie:

was it not education and media that created the current tobacco environment

Oh yes. And I am sure that the vaping community will happily accept the millions of dollars that you will donate to enable vaping to receive the same press coverage. Positive press coverage. Because that does not come cheap

My local animal shelter would take a donation too, while you're at it.

 

[DC2]

The same answer I use on every thread like this that I post on .. "Until concrete regulations are in place as to the exact where and when a PV can be used, I use what I consider common sense .. I'm not going to puff up at a Church, at a Theater, at a Hospital, I live in a State that initiated a State wide public ban for indoor areas quite some time ago and I am not so tethered to my PV that I can't put it down when rational thinking says you should put it down.. "

Inside a hospital, maybe, but anywhere on campus?
To me that is just entirely unacceptable.

As someone who has spent a lot of time at hospitals under stressful conditions...
Not allowing a smoker a place to smoke or at least vape is disgusting.

Although I imagine you were referring to inside a hospital, I did want to take the opportunity to express my disgust.

 

[zoiDman]

I can see both sides and am frustrated at the all or nothing stance by the ANTZ. ...

It Isn't just the ANTZ.

There are a Lot of Run-of-the-Mill people out there who can see both sides. But Understand that a Policy with Dozens of Exceptions just isn't going to work. And if something Isn't going to work, Why Do it?

I think many Feel that a Business/School/Church/Grocery Store/etc should have the "Right" to Not Allow e-Cigarette Use if they don't want it. But know if there is No State/Federal Law to back it up, that vaper's will not Respect the Wishes of the Business/School/Church/Grocery Store/etc Policy.

How many times have you seen people here on the ECF Post... "I can Vape where I Want... It Isn't Against the Law." ?

That, and I also think that Part of the Problem with getting people to buy into Unrestricted Vaping has to do with the "A" Word.

 

[quiter]

I honestly believe that if you want to fight for liberty you have to fight both of our current parties in Washington and at the state and local levels. Both of these parties don't seem to understand WHY it's important to be at liberty to do what you want with your body as long as you are not hurting anyone else or damaging their property.

So in this instance we should not just focus on vaping rights but smoking rights as well. If we allow the smoking bans to continue it's only a matter of time before they are applied to vaping. But really it's more than just that. It's everything they they try and impose from on High.

Now when it comes to my business or my house it's my way or the highway. As far as bar owners complying with the anti-smoking laws; they were nuts for doing it. Each bar owner or owner of any business that wanted to allow smoking should have broken the law or better yet marched on their state capitols demanding to be arrested for breaking the law. The governments simply would have had no possible way of making these hundreds of thousands if not millions of people comply with these unconstitutional laws.

 

[Orb Skewer]

It Isn't just the ANTZ.

There are a Lot of Run-of-the-Mill people out there who can see both sides. But Understand that a Policy with Dozens of Exceptions just isn't going to work. And if something Isn't going to work, Why Do it?

I think many Feel that a Business/School/Church/Grocery Store/etc should have the "Right" to Not Allow e-Cigarette Use if they don't want it. But know if there is No State/Federal Law to back it up, that vaper's will not Respect the Wishes of the Business/School/Church/Grocery Store/etc Policy.

How many times have you seen people here on the ECF Post... "I can Vape where I Want... It Isn't Against the Law." ?

That, and I also think that Part of the Problem with getting people to buy into Unrestricted Vaping has to do with the "A" Word.

My grocery stores do not allow dogs in the store, unless they are guide dogs, that does not require legislation.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Oh, dear Uncle Willie:

Oh yes. And I am sure that the vaping community will happily accept the millions of dollars that you will donate to enable vaping to receive the same press coverage. Positive press coverage. Because that does not come cheap

My local animal shelter would take a donation too, while you're at it.

Although I don't really know how things work these days in Deutschland, press coverage here in the USA such as "Man kicks 40 Year 3 Pack a Day Habit by Using an E-Cig" can generally be had for nothing .. just post up a catchy YouTube video ..

And since the market this year is purportedly exceeding a Billion US Dollars in sales, I'd have to say that those (excluding the Chinese connection) .. can well afford to pool some resources and do a pretty good educational campaign regarding the public safety of PV use ..

 

[zoiDman]

Inside a hospital, maybe, but anywhere on campus?
To me that is just entirely unacceptable. ...

Would you Consider an On Campus Ban with a Parking Lot/In Car Exception to be a Viable Compromise?

 

[Jay-dub]

All I know is that I have a PV and a camera so if I get into trouble over vaping someplace one day I can share.

 

[zoiDman]

...

And since the market this year is purportedly exceeding a Billion US Dollars in sales, I'd have to say that those (excluding the Chinese connection) .. can well afford to pool some resources and do a pretty good educational campaign regarding the public safety of PV use ..

Yeah... Just think of How Many Senate Seats could be bought from the Profits of the e-Cigarette Market.

 

[Uncle Willie]

It never occurred to me that anyone would NOT think anti-smoking laws are becoming increasing draconian.
I really don't know what to say to anyone who doesn't think that.

Now, now .. I did not disagree with the idea .. I simply noted that it was "leading the witness" so to speak .. thus helping flavor whatever replies you got from that point forward ..

 

[zoiDman]

My grocery stores do not allow dogs in the store, unless they are guide dogs, that does not require legislation.

Double check me on this.

But I think Guide Dogs use is Federal Law under the Americans with Disabilities Act.

 

[Uncle Willie]

Double check me on this.

But I think Guide Dogs use is Federal Law under the Americans with Disabilities Act.

that is correct ....