Question for those who think we should not vape where we can not smoke...

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DaveP

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I vape mostly at home, but I also vape in restaurants, stores, and other public places. My wife doesn't particularly like me to vape sitting at a table in a restaurant, but I do it in a stealth manner. Once in a while I'll look up and see someone staring at me and wondering what it is I'm doing. I smile back and take a hit, then blow it downwards. I don't blow clouds and I don't flaunt it.

So far, pushing 4 years into vaping I haven't had a single person ask me not to vape in public. Every one who has asked about my PV has just been interested in what it is and how it works. I get to pass out vendor cards and the URL for ECF and people want to know if I stopped smoking and whether it was hard to do so. Most have a relative they want to transition from smoking to vaping and are thrilled when I tell them that I was able to transition from 2 PAD to vaping without ANY withdrawal symptoms.

Vaping is a miraculous way to stop using tobacco in a paper tube. In order for vaping to become the norm, people need to see that others are doing it with success in quitting cigarettes.

I live in a town in a state where only burning tobacco is banned in public places. I'm not breaking the law when I vape.
 
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Orb Skewer

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I vape mostly at home, but I also vape in restaurants, stores, and other public places. My wife doesn't particularly like me to vape sitting at a table in a restaurant, but I do it in a stealth manner. Once in a while I'll look up and see someone staring at me and wondering what it is I'm doing. I smile back and take a hit, then blow it downwards. I don't blow clouds and I don't flaunt it.

So far, pushing 4 years into vaping I haven't had a single person ask me not to vape in public. Every one who has asked about my PV has just been interested in what it is and how it works. I get to pass out vendor cards and the URL for ECF and people want to know if I stopped smoking and whether it was hard to do so. Most have a relative they want to transition from smoking to vaping and are thrilled when I tell them that I was able to transition from 2 PAD to vaping without ANY withdrawal symptoms.

Vaping is a miraculous way to stop using tobacco in a paper tube. In order for vaping to become the norm, people need to see that others are doing it with success in quitting cigarettes.


Ditto :) ................
 

DC2

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You do know that the first e-cig bans started waaaay before there were many of us... careless or otherwise... right?

Those first bans were pushed by 'health' groups affiliated with BP. Even then, BP saw the potencial of the e-cig for what it was: a very real threat to their 'clean nicotine' monopoly. The lies and misinformation started at least around 2009/10. Most of the public had not even actually seen an e-cig by then. The same applies to most of those minions who were pushing for those bans (on behalf of their masters).
I think there are far too many vapers who don't realize this.

And as the influx of new vapers increases at a faster and faster rate...
The percentage that understand that keeps dropping.
 
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EddardinWinter

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The only "Wrong" thing about it....is that it's civil disobedience...and you may suffer a fine or be asked to leave. The proverbial refusing to sit at the back of the bus in protest.

So if you truly feel your rights are violated, you can vape where it is banned and deal with repercussions. However, since you are impacting the air around you, I'm not sure you'd win the case that you are the victim of an unjust law/ban. Others around you can claim "victim" status as a result of your actions, regardless of harm, since PG/VG vapor is a proven irritant. (I think it harmless, but they don't ask me.)

No fair, Atty. Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say I was a victim or that my rights were violated. I simply say the position is not ridiculous. Let me give an example.

If I am vaping outdoors on a public campus which has banned vaping, I am vaping in public where it is banned, and exposing non-vapers to it without any harm. Is it not so? You can argue that I am, "just gonna get them banned". Fine, disagree, but don't call it ridiculous.



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EddardinWinter

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OK Edd, call me a victim of repeat provocation. I think you'll agree that I'm one of the ones that tries to have a civil debate.

The problem is it's demonstrably false. As long as mixed public places exist, and vapers have every intention of using them, nobody needs to break the rules so we can "be seen" or "distinguish ourselves from smokers".

Edit - Although I would add that I would consciously break rules about vaping outside on publicly owned land, because I think the idea of prohibiting that is ridiculous in normal circumstances.

I agree with most of this. But I can choose to break rules even if I don't "need" to, like in your edit...



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DC2

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If I am vaping outdoors on a public campus which has banned vaping, I am vaping in public where it is banned, and exposing non-vapers to it without any harm. Is it not so? You can argue that I am, "just gonna get them banned". Fine, disagree, but don't call it ridiculous.
I'm actually seriously considering doing this at my alma mater (UCSD) in the near future.
I'm going to sit on the big grassy hill ("The Hump") and have a picnic lunch with my (fellow UCSD graduate) wife.

I just need to research if the campus security guards have tasers.
:laugh:
 

generic mutant

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Outside is an entirely different matter from my POV.

The point is: I read post after post on this forum from 'the usual suspects', to use wv2win's rather apt phrasing, not only bludgeoning people over the head with the righteousness of vaping in buildings where it isn't allowed, but often implying that anybody that doesn't do so is an enemy plant or a moral coward.

I actually think it's kinda funny (you can only be so hysterical before nobody can take you seriously any more), but many presumably don't. It needs to stop.
 
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p.opus

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I think there are far too many vapers who don't realize this.

And as the influx of new vapers increases at a faster and faster rate...
The percentage that understand that keeps dropping.

You do know that the first e-cig bans started waaaay before there were many of us... careless or otherwise... right?

Those first bans were pushed by 'health' groups affiliated with BP. Even then, BP saw the potencial of the e-cig for what it was: a very real threat to their 'clean nicotine' monopoly. The lies and misinformation started at least around 2009/10. Most of the public had not even actually seen an e-cig by then. The same applies to most of those minions who were pushing for those bans (on behalf of their masters).

I believe I vape wisely, that is:
Inside, I will only vape with the owner's permission.
Outside (also considered a public place), I will vape anywere. There's no 'health danger' for anyone. If people can breathe car exhausts, they can breath second-hand vapour - harmless in comparison.
Of course, YMMV. :)


Yes, the public may be still uninformed - are we going to misinform that same public, by giving them the wrong notion that vaping equals smoking, and should be treated the same? That's not wise. Not wise at all. In fact, that is the kind of help ANTZ's would thank us for: The users, themselves, telling the public in an implicit manner that vaping is just another way of smoking.

That is one of the things that is missing. I have been vaping on and off since 2009. As soon as these things hit US shores there was a concerted effort to discredit vaping.

The FDA wanted them classified as "drug delivery" devices and shut down the whole industry. It was a combined effort by e-cig vendors to challenge this in court and win.

The whole "we will offend non smokers" argument is a smoke screen. Those of us who have been vaping for quite some time have rarely had "john q public" raise a stink. I have vaped in resturaunts, the grocery store, and the mall. Not once have I been criticized or asked to stop. Most non smokers I talk to are shocked that there is even an "anti-vaping" movement going on in government.

They see these things as an obvious improvement over smoking.

The most ardent opposers to vaping have an obvious agenda in that they have something to lose if vaping is allowed to continue. They can be broken down as follows:

1. Public Health organizations: American Lung Association, Tobacco Free Kids, and the like. These people rely on donations to keep their jobs. In order to get funding, there has to be a dragon. Cigarettes are a great dragon. Vaping is a paper dragon. Should vaping be allowed to continue unfettered, the Paper Dragon defeats the Great Dragon and now these organizations can't fight health issues that don't exist.

2. Big Pharma: These companies make their money on selling expensive ineffective smoking cessation products. Big Pharma has no interest in you quitting permanently , unless you are dead. They expect you, the smoker to "try" and quit continuously and that's where they make their money.

3. Big Government: Government makes more money off of Tobacco than the Tobacco farmers themselves. This country was literally built on tobacco. If some farmer had not arrived to Jamestown with some illicit tobacco seeds in his possession, then Jamestown would have failed most likely. Tobacco was our colonies first major export. Tobacco and our government have been intertwined for over 230 years. The e-cig threatens to usurp this relationship and billions of billions of tax dollars (and politicians careers) are in jeopardy. Entire states economies rely on the tobacco industry to continue to thrive. If you think that the US wants some upstart Chinese Import to threaten some states entire existence, you have another thing coming

4. Big Tobacco: They have been the beneficiary of a tobacco friendly government for 230 years. Tobacco and US history are inseparable. For the first time in history, there is a technology that can actually make tobacco use a thing of the past. the Tobacco industry has put their stake in the ground in e-cigs, but it is only there to protect tobacco, not replace it.

The biggest threat to vaping, is apathy. Apathy from a non smoking public who doesn't care what happens to vapers or smokers because it doesn't "apply to me". Traditionally this is how liberty has been taken away in history. Death by a thousand cuts...Freedoms are taken away from people that others don't think applies to them and before you know it, it's been lost for everyone.

Whether it's gun control or vaping. John Q public says, well, I don't own a gun, and I don't smoke, and I don't vape, so why should I care.

You should care because it's your freedom that may be next.

Look at how many of our freedoms have been lost since 9/11 all in the name of "security". That's why I fight for my rights and the rights of others. A civil liberty lost for one group of people is a civil liberty lost for us all.
 

EddardinWinter

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Outside is an entirely different matter from my POV.

The point is: I read post after post on this forum from 'the usual suspects', to use wv2win's rather apt phrasing, not only bludgeoning people over the head with the righteousness of vaping in buildings where it isn't allowed, but often implying that anybody that doesn't do so is an enemy plant or a moral coward.

I actually think it's kinda funny (you can only be so hysterical before nobody can take you seriously any more), but many presumably don't. It needs to stop.

No worse than the way I have been talked to, GM.

Sorry, but if you think this is a problem solely from the side of the "vape everywhere" crowd, you just aren't paying attention.

My ideas about vaping are routinely called ridiculous, extremist, unrealistic, stupid, paranoid, and silly. All of that may in fact be true, but please don't tell me that this is a one-way civility issue.
 

wv2win

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That is one of the things that is missing. I have been vaping on and off since 2009. As soon as these things hit US shores there was a concerted effort to discredit vaping.

The FDA wanted them classified as "drug delivery" devices and shut down the whole industry. It was a combined effort by e-cig vendors to challenge this in court and win.

The whole "we will offend non smokers" argument is a smoke screen. Those of us who have been vaping for quite some time have rarely had "john q public" raise a stink. I have vaped in resturaunts, the grocery store, and the mall. Not once have I been criticized or asked to stop. Most non smokers I talk to are shocked that there is even an "anti-vaping" movement going on in government.

They see these things as an obvious improvement over smoking.

The most ardent opposers to vaping have an obvious agenda in that they have something to lose if vaping is allowed to continue. They can be broken down as follows:

1. Public Health organizations: American Lung Association, Tobacco Free Kids, and the like. These people rely on donations to keep their jobs. In order to get funding, there has to be a dragon. Cigarettes are a great dragon. Vaping is a paper dragon. Should vaping be allowed to continue unfettered, the Paper Dragon defeats the Great Dragon and now these organizations can't fight health issues that don't exist.

2. Big Pharma: These companies make their money on selling expensive ineffective smoking cessation products. Big Pharma has no interest in you quitting permanently , unless you are dead. They expect you, the smoker to "try" and quit continuously and that's where they make their money.

3. Big Government: Government makes more money off of Tobacco than the Tobacco farmers themselves. This country was literally built on tobacco. If some farmer had not arrived to Jamestown with some illicit tobacco seeds in his possession, then Jamestown would have failed most likely. Tobacco was our colonies first major export. Tobacco and our government have been intertwined for over 230 years. The e-cig threatens to usurp this relationship and billions of billions of tax dollars (and politicians careers) are in jeopardy. Entire states economies rely on the tobacco industry to continue to thrive. If you think that the US wants some upstart Chinese Import to threaten some states entire existence, you have another thing coming

4. Big Tobacco: They have been the beneficiary of a tobacco friendly government for 230 years. Tobacco and US history are inseparable. For the first time in history, there is a technology that can actually make tobacco use a thing of the past. the Tobacco industry has put their stake in the ground in e-cigs, but it is only there to protect tobacco, not replace it.

The biggest threat to vaping, is apathy. Apathy from a non smoking public who doesn't care what happens to vapers or smokers because it doesn't "apply to me". Traditionally this is how liberty has been taken away in history. Death by a thousand cuts...Freedoms are taken away from people that others don't think applies to them and before you know it, it's been lost for everyone.

Whether it's gun control or vaping. John Q public says, well, I don't own a gun, and I don't smoke, and I don't vape, so why should I care.

You should care because it's your freedom that may be next.

Look at how many of our freedoms have been lost since 9/11 all in the name of "security". That's why I fight for my rights and the rights of others. A civil liberty lost for one group of people is a civil liberty lost for us all.

Good post. I would add to the Big Government section an addendum that Big Pharm has a significant influence over Big Government due to it's powerful lobby and that the current administration needs and is influenced by Big Pharm more than any other administration in this countries history for obvious reasons.
 

generic mutant

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No worse than the way I have been talked to, GM.

Sorry, but if you think this is a problem solely from the side of the "vape everywhere" crowd, you just aren't paying attention.

My ideas about vaping are routinely called ridiculous, extremist, unrealistic, stupid, paranoid, and silly. All of that may in fact be true, but please don't tell me that this is a one-way civility issue.

I think it comes disproportionately from a very small number of posters, who tend to be on the "vape anywhere" side.

I'd not saying 'my' side on any issue is always civil.
 

Jman8

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Outside is an entirely different matter from my POV.

Why? I'd like that explained as clearly as possible, why any vaper sees it (perfectly) okay to vape where non-vapers may be present in any outdoor place? Why that meets the standard of common courtesy, respect and decency, while vaping indoors anywhere, where explicit permission has not been granted, is to be treated (among fellow vapers) in the opposite manner?

Please, give it your best shot.

since you are impacting the air around you, I'm not sure you'd win the case that you are the victim of an unjust law/ban. Others around you can claim "victim" status as a result of your actions, regardless of harm, since PG/VG vapor is a proven irritant. (I think it harmless, but they don't ask me.)

All 'good' reasoning on why vaping could be banned in all outdoor locations.
 

generic mutant

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Why? I'd like that explained as clearly as possible, why any vaper sees it (perfectly) okay to vape where non-vapers may be present in any outdoor place? Why that meets the standard of common courtesy, respect and decency, while vaping indoors anywhere, where explicit permission has not been granted, is to be treated (among fellow vapers) in the opposite manner?

Please, give it your best shot.
...

Basically concentration, and opportunity to evade - for the same reason it's OK to run a diesel engine in your garden, but not in the pub.

When I say outside I'm using another shorthand - I mean outside when I'm not sitting next to people who don't like vapour. If I'm amongst standing people and its easy to move, it's so little imposition expecting them to step away if they don't like the smell I wouldn't see it as a problem. If it's not easy to move (e.g. at a festival or something) it kinda depends. Nobody would bat an eyelid at Glastonbury. In a queue for a nice restaurant, people might well think it rude, so I might step away.

If people are annoyed by the fumes (and some are - whether you think that's reasonable or not), they're going to be considerably more noticeable inside, because they'll often be concentrated.

Obviously air conditioning can change that to the point of negligibility (as it probably could for a diesel engine, if you had enough air conditioning), and some people aren't bothered. Ergo manager's discretion makes sense. I don't doubt we'll end up with vape friendly / unfriendly bars, pubs and restaurants, and a fairly fuzzy segregation going on, where people from one 'camp' often visit the other. It might smell, but it doesn't smell anything like cigarettes do, and there's no apparent reason for concern about bystanders' (significantly: staff) health.
 
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EddardinWinter

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I think it comes disproportionately from a very small number of posters, who tend to be on the "vape anywhere" side.

I'd not saying 'my' side on any issue is always civil.

Maybe not, but you did say this...

Outside is an entirely different matter from my POV.

The point is: I read post after post on this forum from 'the usual suspects', to use wv2win's rather apt phrasing, not only bludgeoning people over the head with the righteousness of vaping in buildings where it isn't allowed, but often implying that anybody that doesn't do so is an enemy plant or a moral coward.

I actually think it's kinda funny (you can only be so hysterical before nobody can take you seriously any more), but many presumably don't. It needs to stop.

So you only mostly blame the "vape everywhere" crowd.

I disagree with that assignment of blame wholeheartedly, I think the "vape where permitted crowd" (is this a reasonable label for the group? I am truly not trying to offend with the term) uses nearly identical tactics, and is much faster to cry foul. You have your perception, and I have mine.

It really doesn't matter to the OP and topic. I have challenged your assertion and you have conceded a small sliver of ground, I accept your refusal to move further and I still think you are okay (for a Statist). That is perhaps as far as we can productively address the issue at this point.

If you like, take the last word, GM.
 
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wv2win

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....................
The point is: I read post after post on this forum from 'the usual suspects', to use wv2win's rather apt phrasing, not only bludgeoning people over the head with the righteousness of vaping in buildings where it isn't allowed, but often implying that anybody that doesn't do so is an enemy plant or a moral coward...........................

I think you really have this backwards. Most of us who advocate "vape openly most places BUT respectfully and with common sense" are fine with those who feel uncomfortable doing this. I have pointed out that if we ONLY vape where smoking is permitted we support the flawed perception that vaping and smoking are the same thing. But I have also stated that I understand that some don't feel comfortable being different or drawing any possible attention to themselves, and that is fine.

I have never seen any of us on this side of the issue stating in big, bold letters: don't ever vape where smoking is permitted. But I have seen plenty of the "usual suspects" castigating those of us who vape openly but respectfully with big, bold statements to never vape where smoking is prohibited. We have even provided you several examples of this "castigating" which you perfunctorily dismiss as irrelevant, which is disingenuous on your part.

We also see the consistent "very flawed" mantra from the "usual suspects" that those who vape openly but respectfully are the cause of vaping bans across the country. And although this has been easily proven to be a "red herring", it just keeps getting thrown out with the hope that if it is repeated enough times we will magically lose all ability to think and just nod our heads in unison.

I think your "attempt" to paint those of us who advocate vaping openly but respectfully with the tactics of the "only vape where you can smoke" crowd is pretty weak.
 
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EddardinWinter

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<snip>

We also see the consistent "very flawed" mantra from the "usual suspects" that those who vape openly but respectfully are the cause of vaping bans across the country. And although this has been easily proven to be a "red herring", it just keeps getting thrown out with the hope that if it is repeated enough times we will magically lose all ability to think and just nod our heads in unison.

<snip>

This is a major pet peeve of mine. This generally accepted axiom is based on almost no factual backing.
 

generic mutant

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...I have never seen any of us on this side of the issue stating in big, bold letters: don't ever vape where smoking is permitted. But I have seen plenty of the "usual suspects" castigating those of us who vape openly but respectfully with big, bold statements to never vape where smoking is prohibited. We have even provided you several examples of this "castigating" which you perfunctorily dismiss as irrelevant, which is disingenuous on your part.

Disingenuous? Really?

You're fighting a paper tiger. There isn't anybody that *bothers* writing "Except if vaping is expressly allowed" after "Don't vape where smoking isn't permitted" because they think it's so blinking obvious it doesn't need stating.

These people you refer to might exist, but they're extremely rare. There are many people who may use a 'shorthand' to refer to their position, but there is basically nobody who thinks you should not vape in vape friendly, non-smoking establishments, and the accusation that we're "treating vaping like smoking" is utterly baseless. The similarity is: It can annoy people. You might as well say I'm treating vaping like rollerskating.

You think you can find a single post that isn't ambiguous? I doubt it. I've read those whole threads, and I know some of the posters, and I know exactly what they'd say if they were asked to clarify. Who's being disingenuous?

We also see the consistent "very flawed" mantra from the "usual suspects" that those who vape openly but respectfully are the cause of vaping bans across the country. And although this has been easily proven to be a "red herring", it just keeps getting thrown out with the hope that if it is repeated enough times we will magically lose all ability to think and just nod our heads in unison.

I think your "attempt" to paint those of us who advocate vaping openly but respectfully with the tactics of the "only vape where you can smoke" crown is weak.

Some people vape in an obnoxious way, causing establishments to ban vaping. That's an established fact. I don't think it's a leap to suggest that that fuels anti-vaper prejudice.

My objection isn't really to you vaping "openly but respectfully", as long as you stop when you're told to by someone who owns / runs an indoor space or their representatives. I'd prefer it if you asked first, but that's minutiae of taste.
 
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wv2win

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Disingenuous? Really?

You're fighting a paper tiger. There isn't anybody that *bothers* writing "Except if vaping is expressly allowed" after "Don't vape where smoking isn't permitted" because they think it's so blinking obvious it doesn't need stating.

These people you refer to might exist, but they're extremely rare. There are many people who may use a 'shorthand' to refer to their position, but there is basically nobody who thinks you should not vape in vape friendly, non-smoking establishments.

You think you can find a single post that isn't ambiguous? I doubt it. I've read those whole threads, and I know some of the posters, and I know exactly what they'd say if they were asked to clarify. Who's being disingenuous?



Some people vape in an obnoxious way, causing establishments to ban vaping. That's an established fact. I don't think it's a leap to suggest that that fuels anti-vaper prejudice.

My objection isn't really to you vaping "openly but respectfully", as long as you stop when you're told to by someone who owns / runs an indoor space or their representatives. I'd prefer it if you asked first, but that's minutiae of taste.

I've never seen anyone who can misinterpret and twist another person's post as well as you can. This whole thread is NOT about anyone objecting to vaping where smoking is permitted. It is about those who object to respectfully vaping where smoking is prohibited.

You know that and it is why you consistently ignore and won't address the many examples we have provided you of the "usual suspects" beating the "don't vape where smoking is prohibited" mantra on this forum.

You also like to make statement, as if they are facts, that you cannot support. Show us one ban on vaping that was due to someone vaping in an obnoxious manner. When the FDA attempted to ban vaping nationwide in 2009, who were the mythical obnoxious vapers who spurred the FDA to take this drastic action? The recent NYC ban on vaping did not use the "mythical obnoxious vaper" in their rationale at all.

You really are grasping for straws. And yes, being disingenuous.
 
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