Question Regarding Mech Circuits

[Spey]

And vents should point AWAY from the user, with what looks/are to be 510 contacts that won't blow out like a bullet (since they point at the vaper).

RE: T.M.G.510
(Tube mech gun & 510 bullets)

I would like to read about this (510 contacts leaving a mech like a bullet).

Are you aware of this ever happening?

Would appreciate any links on this as I have never heard or even considered this a possiblity in that the 510's in all my atty's are larger diameter than the base threading collar.

Thanks,


Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk

 

[AttyPops]

RE: T.M.G.510
(Tube mech gun & 510 bullets)

I would like to read about this (510 contacts leaving a mech like a bullet).

Are you aware of this ever happening?

Would appreciate any links on this as I have never heard or even considered this a possiblity in that the 510's in all my atty's are larger diameter than the base threading collar.

Thanks,


Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk

Thankfully, it's rarer than you might think, but happens. See baditude's links above. Also this story:

Man dies in e-cigarette explosion, police say - CNN

The cause of death is identified as a projectile wound to the head, Bill Pellan, director of investigations at the Pinellas County Medical Examiner's Office, said Tuesday.
The projectile was from a section of an e-cigarette.

I admit that assuming it was a 510 connector could be an error on my part. But that's the part (along with whatever is a "cap" + topper) that faces the user.

Would appreciate any links on this as I have never heard or even considered this a possiblity in that the 510's in all my atty's are larger diameter than the base threading collar.

IDK what this means.

A 510 connector is a female threaded connector with a center post. That threaded connector + center post is of various designs. Regardless of the topper.

 

[jolly_st_nic]

"The cause of death is identified as a projectile wound to the head, Bill Pellan, director of investigations at the Pinellas County Medical Examiner's Office, said Tuesday.
The projectile was from a section of an e-cigarette."

I was thinking that, when an airplane takes off, they say that's the highest risk moment of the flight. If something can go wrong with the setup of the engine, propellers, etc. it usually happens then, when the airplane is first starting to move and fly. It seems to me that, while it might not do anything to reduce the chances of a short circuit happening, if the mod is briefly fired while pointed away from the head and face on the very first go after changing a coil, adding juice, rewicking, and so on that would at least reduce fatalities. It's just common sense to me, since I don't have statistics or scientific knowledge about it, but if something is going to go wrong with your setup, it must be likely to occur when the mod is fired for the first time after some mechanical change to the device - even if that change is just removing and replacing the top cap. Maybe that is the moment of highest risk, where you'd want to be especially careful not to have the thing in your mouth.

Is that why I see a lot of people on youtube doing a test fire without vaping on it? Makes a lot of sense. I've been test firing my mod each time I add juice, etc. with the top cap already on. When I hear it crackle on a brief button press, when I hear it stop crackling after a button press, I can be reasonably sure it's not shorted and I can then vape on it with less risk to my head.

 

[untar]

There is no data on what button press most accidents happen nor if it was a short circuit in the atty or an internally damaged/overstressed battery. In case of a no-short-circuit-in-the-atty-battery-failure I'd guess it's more likely if the battery is already hot when the button is pressed, so not on the first press but the 2nd,3rd,4th etc with an increasing chance (obviously only when there's something wrong with the battery already). In the incident where the guy fired the top part of the vape into his head we don't know which one it was and there's no reason to assume it was the first press that did him in. If there was an internal short in the battery then it doesn't matter at all whether it was 1st press or 100th, it was when an internal bridge was completed.
Let's not invent new myths without factual evidence.

The recorded cases where a vape exploded in someones face are rare, you read about them going off in people's pockets/purses (often it turns out it was loose batteries) or while charging far more often.

 

[Spey]

I admit that assuming it was a 510 connector could be an error on my part. But that's the part (along with whatever is a "cap" + topper) that faces the user.

Spey wrote:
Would appreciate any links on this as I have never heard or even considered this a possiblity in that the 510's in all my atty's are larger diameter than the base threading collar.

IDK what this means.

A 510 connector is a female threaded connector with a center post. That threaded connector + center post is of various designs. Regardless of the topper.

I disagree with your inclusive use of terminology and presumption.

The "bullet" I read to mean the "510 connector" as you referenced. I assumed this "bullet" / connector to be the 510 connector (pin typically floating, spring or friction fit or male-theaded), that makes contact with the battery terminal on one end and center post on the other. Effectively the most central component of any atomiser, much the same as a "bullet" is to a cartridge and/or most any gun/firing-device.

Your statement related to "female threaded connector" illustrates we have a disconnect related to terminology ..., as the 510 collar (that I referenced previously) has both exterior male threads and 'sometimes' but not always interior female threads (that you reference). The actual "510 connector" or as many call 510 pin is the only thing I would have correlated as a "bullet" reference.

It appears you are now possibly saying anything flying away from an explosion to be possibly classified as a bullet, when in my mind everything other than the 510 connector pin flying away after explosion would be shrapnel.

Please understand my goal was not to be argumentative, I was hoping to learn of something I had not even imagined possible ..., Effectively a 510 connector escaping a vape device like a bullet with enough kinetic energy to cause damage to anything.

Regards,

 

[AttyPops]

I disagree with your inclusive use of terminology.

The "bullet" I read to mean the "510 connector" as you referenced. I assumed this "bullet" / connector to be the 510 connector (pin typically floating, spring or friction fit or male-theaded), that makes contact with the battery terminal on one end and center post on the other. Effectively the most central component of any atomiser, much the same as a "bullet" is to a cartridge and/or any gun/firing-device.

Your statement related to "female threaded connector" illustrates we have a disconnect related to terminology ..., as the 510 collar (that I referenced previously) has both exterior male threads and 'sometimes' but not always interior female threads (that you reference). The actual "510 connector" or as many call 510 pin is the only thing I would have correlated as a "bullet" reference.

It appears you are now possibly saying anything flying away from an explosion to be possibly classified as a bullet, when in my mind everything other than the 510 connector pin flying away after explosion would be shrapnel.

Please understand my goal was not to be argumentative, I was hoping to learn of something I had not even imagined possibly. Effectively a 510 connector escaping a vape device like a bullet with enough kinetic energy to cause damage to anything.

Regards,

That's fine.

I just view the 510-whatever-area as a potential weak point of connection. Of course, YMMV, depending on the entire design. If pressure builds up enough in a mod for it to be the cause of injury or even in the one case death, something must have blown out as a projectile toward the user. Be it a pin, the entire connector or some other part.

I guess the point was that I want the OTHER parts, that are NOT facing the user, to be weaker than that top-ish-whatever part, and I'd expect that any mod would NOT blow, but rather vent, but if it does disintegrate, that it would blow parts sideways or away from the user first, by design.

 

[Spey]

That's fine.

I just view the 510-whatever-area as a potential weak point of connection. Of course, YMMV, depending on the entire design. If pressure builds up enough in a mod for it to be the cause of injury or even in the one case death, something must have blown out as a projectile toward the user. Be it a pin, the entire connector or some other part.

I guess the point was that I want the OTHER parts, that are NOT facing the user, to be weaker than that top-ish-whatever part, and I'd expect that any mod would NOT blow, but rather vent, but if it does disintegrate, that it would blow parts sideways or away from the user first, by design.

I would suggest that

You Pay Attention

to your equipment, selection, and maintenance and that you move away from a "what-ever" line approach.

Choosing a device built to fail safely seems to me to be somewhat controverted option to learning how to select and use components properly to begin with.

The potential energy in vape batteries is staggering for most to realise. If more peep's simply choose to Pay Attention, understand and focus on continued learning, we would all be better for it.

If there is one thing I have learned, the more I learn the less I know.

 

[AttyPops]

I saw that in your sig.

Yeah, but still, I'd want a device to fail gracefully as possible, regardless of personal knowledge and components.
Murphy is a *B*

I would suggest that

You Pay Attention

to your equipment, selection, and maintenance and that you move away from a "what-ever" line approach.

Choosing a device built to fail safely seems to me to be somewhat controverted option to learning how to select and use components properly to begin with.

The potential energy in vape batteries is staggering for most to realise. If more peep's simply choose to Pay Attention, understand and focus on continued learning, we would all be better for it.

If there is one thing I have learned, the more I learn the less I know.

 

[DaveP]

In the event of a mech explosion I'd wager that the size of the exhaust holes in the bottom battery cap would play heavily into the equation. The weakest end would suffer greatly. If that part is a poorly secured 510 connector then I'd suppose that it "could" cause the atomizer to turn into a projectile.

Still, that's only a hypothesis. If the ends were secure and there was a substantial crack in the body from a previous drop, then all prior bets are off.

I've watched a few intentional battery short videos where 18650's were set up to blow and the first thing that happens is smoke, followed by moderate spewing, then catastrophic failure that wasn't pretty. I'd hope to sense the smoke or spewing in time to avoid the bang.

This one shows two different cells intentionally shorted, but no bang, just temperature rise.


In the second video the shorted battery doesn't explode after a while so they help it explode by heating it with a propane torch.

 

[AttyPops]

The guys in that last video are damn lucky they didn't do more damage or get hurt. Anyway,

The weakest end would suffer greatly.

Yeah. Agree. The thing is that batteries EXPAND when they overheat and ignite. So that's why a tube with just vents at the bottom might not be safe if the battery plugs the tube, as pressure can still build "on top", depending on design.

IDK....I think ECF had a whole thing on this, they recommended SLOTS along the sides, even.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this other than to think about it when selecting a mech or mod. Past, present, future. I'm not trying to lay sin or blame or anything on past events, and the people above are correct that the best safety device is between your ears. That said, I think giving design, and also battery wear-and-tear-and-age a consideration, is worthwhile.

Heck, it would be valuable for the industry to develop standards and/or have a methodology of showing "failure results" for catastrophic battery failures in e-cigs, for each make-model. But I guess I dream a bit.

 

[DaveP]

The guys in that last video are damn lucky they didn't do more damage or get hurt. Anyway,


Yeah. Agree. The thing is that batteries EXPAND when they overheat and ignite. So that's why a tube with just vents at the bottom might not be safe if the battery plugs the tube, as pressure can still build "on top", depending on design.

IDK....I think ECF had a whole thing on this, they recommended SLOTS along the sides, even.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this other than to think about it when selecting a mech or mod. Past, present, future. I'm not trying to lay sin or blame or anything on past events, and the people above are correct that the best safety device is between your ears. That said, I think giving design, and also battery wear-and-tear-and-age a consideration, is worthwhile.

Heck, it would be valuable for the industry to develop standards and/or have a methodology of showing "failure results" for catastrophic battery failures in e-cigs, for each make-model. But I guess I dream a bit.

Yeah! The second video was a backyard "watch this" video. Anything could have happened when he used the torch.

I'll post one more video that I think contains pretty much all the information vapers need to be safe, then I'll stop. This guy summed it all up intelligently and included information that people need to know to prevent such accidents.

 

[Spey]

Yeah. Agree. The thing is that batteries EXPAND when they overheat and ignite. So that's why a tube with just vents at the bottom might not be safe if the battery plugs the tube, as pressure can still build "on top", depending on design.

AttyPops,

My earlier comment

"I would suggest that

You Pay Attention

to your equipment, selection, and maintenance and that you move away from a "what-ever" line approach."

Think about what you just wrote related to how a battery is designed to vent and where a mod vent holes are located and battery orientation.

If the vents on a tube mod are at the bottom (most typical and same as all I own), why would anyone not ellect to insert the battery with venting end (+) in direction of mod vents?

My only conclusion, because they saw someone else do it or someone said it was the proper way and they accepted that without any amount of deductive reasoning or thought or attention paid.

The conclusion would potentially include some of your previous references like;
1) battery may expand when heated.
2) expanded battery potentially plugs tube.
3) battery vents (designed self-protection mechanism from explosion).
4) plugged tube overpressures to explosion.
5) top of mod & atty become projectiles in one direction.

So effectively the user has intentionally created a condition where the battery manufacture design (vent-cap self-protection from explosion) is ignored creating potential for much worse outcome (explosion vs. simple venting). All because user was not paying attention to what they were doing.

There are always going to be exceptions (reasons why one may need to insert a battery with vents twords their face, etc.), but one must rationalize if the design is something that is worth using and the importance in user equipment selection.

Couple very basic examples of not worth risk in my mind:
1) Any mod with vents directed at or in vicinity face.
2) Any tube-mech with vents opposite battery vent cap.

RE: your comments about mid-vents:
Does it make sense to put vents in the middle of a tube mech. NO (in my mind), because as you already referenced an expanding battery would plug those vents. I would assume this (mid vents) would be the result of some other design deficiency like the lower button cap precludes the ability to position. Or false sense of security marketing ploy, etc. If anything those vent holes/slots would create a weak or breakaway point that would direct an explosion into user hand and split the mech into additional pieces of shrapnel.

 

[AttyPops]

AttyPops,

My earlier comment

"I would suggest that

You Pay Attention

to your equipment, selection, and maintenance and that you move away from a "what-ever" line approach."

Think about what you just wrote related to how a battery is designed to vent and where a mod vent holes are located and battery orientation.

If the vents on a tube mod are at the bottom (most typical and same as all I own), why would anyone not ellect to insert the battery with venting end (+) in direction of mod vents?

My only conclusion, because they saw someone else do it or someone said it was the proper way and they accepted that without any amount of deductive reasoning or thought or attention paid.

The conclusion would potentially include some of your previous references like;
1) battery may expand when heated.
2) expanded battery potentially plugs tube.
3) battery vents (designed self-protection mechanism from explosion).
4) plugged tube overpressures to explosion.
5) top of mod & atty become projectiles in one direction.

So effectively the user has intentionally created a condition where the battery manufacture design (vent-cap self-protection from explosion) is ignored creating potential for much worse outcome (explosion vs. simple venting). All because user was not paying attention to what they were doing.

There are always going to be exceptions (reasons why one may need to insert a battery with vents twords their face, etc.), but one must rationalize if the design is something that is worth using and the importance in user equipment selection.

Couple very basic examples of not worth risk in my mind:
1) Any mod with vents directed at or in vicinity face.
2) Any tube-mech with vents opposite battery vent cap.

RE: your comments about mid-vents:
Does it make sense to put vents in the middle of a tube mech. NO (in my mind), because as you already referenced an expanding battery would plug those vents. I would assume this (mid vents) would be the result of some other design deficiency like the lower button cap precludes the ability to position. Or false sense of security marketing ploy, etc. If anything those vent holes/slots would create a weak or breakaway point that would direct an explosion into user hand and split the mech into additional pieces of shrapnel.

IDK, I'm not a battery design expert. Nor a mech/mod design expert. I'm just commenting on a forum, and "was wondering".

As far as I know, most users put the positive terminal on the 510 center pin, with the fire-button on the bottom making the ground connection, despite your argument. I don't know the pros or cons of your argument.

Nor am I convinced that batteries only fail "at the button/positive terminal" or only vent from there.

 

[Spey]

IDK, I'm not a battery design expert. Nor a mech/mod design expert. I'm just commenting on a forum, and "was wondering".

As far as I know, most users put the positive terminal on the 510 center pin, with the fire-button on the bottom making the ground connection, despite your argument. I don't know the pros or cons of your argument.

Nor am I convinced that batteries only fail "at the button/positive terminal" or only vent from there.

I am merely a semi-informed user commenting into a forum in attempt to help others that are wondering enough to read and hopefully think about the why's and how's.

I would agree with you thoughts that many choose to insert batteries (+) end twoards the 510. It works yes, but depending on conditions may create a very bad experience (previous comments). Just because it works and is accepted by many does not mean it follows rational thought related to safety. You are not riding in my car that way though because of the potential for catastrophic failure.

Batteries can fail for a number of reasons. When they do fail (typical vape batteries like 18650's) they are designed to vent as a means of reducing the effects of thermal runaway. If a battery case is damaged, it could vent at the location of damage. Otherwise they are 'designed' to vent at the vent (the (+) side).

Take a look at an 18650, 18350, 20700, 21700, etc, etc. Look at the (+) end and you will see the external vent ports of the (+) connection. Surrounding that vent cap you will see a white insulation ring secured around the exterior vent cap separating the (+) polarity from the (-) of the can.

Under the external (+) vent cap is typically a perforated vent disk. The rest of the perimeter is essentially a sealed can covered with protective insulating wrap (the shrink-wrap).

Do some research I you don't accept my descriptions. Rewrap some batteries replaceing the white insulator rings and investigate for yourself.

Hopefully some of this makes sense. I understand there's not a lot of YouTubers to learn about this from unless you get a little more specific into batteries and electronics from other industries. Battery manufactures stay away from vape stuff like the plague, because few care to have enough interest to understand the simplest of things (battery vents but one example).

I hope nothing I have written has offended you in any way. Hopefully only peaked your interest to investigate deeper.

 

[homeuser6]

the reasoning behind battery orientation in a tube mech has been explained many times.

"If there was a tear in the shrink wrap of the battery and it causes a short between the anode of the batt. and the body of the mech, you will have a dead short when you push the button.

However the torn shrink wrap also causes a bad problem when the battery is installed with the correct polarity because the mech will fire without pushing the button."

but i must add that all my batteries are double wrapped and all my mechs have three 1/8 inch vents on both ends.

 

[AttyPops]

^^ Yep.

The thing is that with the latter, at least it's a short through-the-coil-resistance. Hopefully giving you time to either fix it or toss the thing away.

I use regulated mods anyway, so they're much less likely to have these issues due to active circuitry and internal safeguards.

 

[untar]

Nor am I convinced that batteries only fail "at the button/positive terminal" or only vent from there.

Spey is right, they are all (but one) designed to vent from the "nubble", there's only one battery that I know of where that's the (-) pole (the a123 26650 LiFePo and that's only used by very few "special" people for vaping and it still vents through the (+)). So for us vapers that means batteries vent from the (+), there's a breaking/rupture point built into that. This part should be near the vent holes, especially in a metal tube mod.

 

[AttyPops]

Spey is right, they are all (but one) designed to vent from the "nubble", there's only one battery that I know of where that's the (-) pole (the a123 26650 LiFePo and that's only used by very few "special" people for vaping and it still vents through the (+)). So for us vapers that means batteries vent from the (+), there's a breaking/rupture point built into that. This part should be near the vent holes, especially in a metal tube mod.

I didn't say he was wrong...I see the vent holes, and know about the grounding cylinder around the battery. However, if you watch venting/thermal-runaway/goes-nuclear/pick-your-term videos, you'll often see fire shooting out sides and other areas besides the "top"/+ side.

(Captioned: This was an 18650 once - from: Batteries Rarely Explode By Themselves)

Point being, there are few absolutes when we're talking about venting batteries blowing up mods/mechs.

 

[untar]

I've seen my fair share of those videos. If there is fire shooting out that means it's thermal runaway, not venting. No vent hole is big enough to let that kind of pressure out quickly and it's not what the rupture point at the top or the vent holes in a mech are designed for. If you know a video that shows a battery venting through the side/bottom then feel free to post it.

I'm not sure why you're posting that photo, that's just the insides of a battery with no pieces of the can... ?

 

[AttyPops]

I've seen my fair share of those videos. If there is fire shooting out that means it's thermal runaway, not venting. No vent hole is big enough to let that kind of pressure out quickly and it's not what the rupture point at the top or the vent holes in a mech are designed for. If you know a video that shows a battery venting through the side/bottom then feel free to post it.

I'm not sure why you're posting that photo, that's just the insides of a battery with no pieces of the can... ?

Now we're being pedantic on venting vs thermal-runaway when discussing "battery safety"?
Get outta here with that (meant friendly) Fine, I edited.

Point remains, I'm not going to assume that it only "vents" and that it only "blows up" in one area of the battery. Like I said, there's enough videos showing catastrophic destruction of a battery, <pick your term>, to not limit it to "the positive terminal only".

Point stands. I'm not going to trust my life to an ASSUMPTION that it would ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY vent out the button top and NEVER EVER fail anywhere else. Regardless of what terms I pick.

Besides, the short problem alone is enough to not run a battery with ground-to-center-pin, button down, IMO. But to each their own. See post 35, among others.