Questions about Clone Quality and Ethics - Help a vet ;-)

[pt91]

For tube mechs, I preferred the Greek mods.
Gus makes beautiful mods that haven't been cloned and are not only available, but affordable. The only tube I ever regretted getting rid of was my Gus.
Next is the Atmizoo roller. I've seen similar "clones" of this but nothing even comes close. Fantastic design, flawless finish, brilliant threading, and a button that is second to none. I miss this one on occasion as well. Also, the Lab. In stock, fairly priced.
And then there's MMV. Makers of the Poldiac, Temon and DID. Poldi has been cloned, but they all seem to be plagued with issues. The Temon was my first mech and I adored it. Poldiacs are gorgeous works of art that perform amazingly and can be purchased at this very moment in several variations to suit your taste. A few months back they were selling the Poldi V1 for $100 and you could even get it engraved for free.

Agree. Gus and GPs are not going to be cloned easily and correctly. The GP and Gus switches are out of this world. Too complex and smooth for China to tackle. Their customer service is also not matched.

If you find a 2.5 paps in good condition I would buy it. It will make others look like trash.

 

[minimalsaint]

Agree. Gus and GPs are not going to be cloned easily and correctly. The GP and Gus switches are out of this world. Too complex and smooth for China to tackle. Their customer service is also not matched.

If you find a 2.5 paps in good condition I would buy it. It will make others look like trash.

All of this ^^^^^^ yes.

 

[Bad Ninja]

Izzat so ?
Lol




Clone by Hot Technologies.

 

[roflwaffles]

I don't believe the Flip, Patriot, or Tobh are made in China.

Patriot clones are basically sold in every vape store ever and Tobhs will be soon as well.

In my mind, if you're okay downloading music and movies, you should be okay with buying clones.

 

[suspectK]

so... question #1: I am afraid that if I got a clone that things that are important to me like fit and finish... the action of the firing button, connections and threading could be subpar quality... is this typical?

#2 - I have a problem with the whole ethical thing... like... I suppose I could afford a $250 mod... I am in my 40's... have 9 years of college a steady job and I have the dough in my budget for an anti-smoking pleasure device ;-)

1- It's typical...but research, research, research. I've found infinite clones to be indistinguishable between the authentics...but that can go with a few selections of other manufacturers... I look for infinite first, but if I can't, I tend to want hcigar.. My hcigar atomo v2 is spot on.

You'll need to do research with the clone you want...tobeco has upset me several times. I avoid them, unless I see compelling evidence to look into them further.

2- I appreciate authentics, and I have the means to buy them...but if a clone is available, I get it first before I even consider authentics..the only authentics I own are the 4nine..and soon to be a gus kiss estia combo.. The good manufcaturers appreciate clone makers..they get more publicity from more people having cloned versions..so the good companies aren't worried about it. Now, if you make a product like a hana modz... I can't imagine appreciating cloners.

If you can afford the authentic, and a clone is available, get the best cloned version..if you love it..buy authentic if you think the clone is lacking on quality.. I stand by my statement in regards to infinite. I use my turtle ship by infinite the most out of anything I have at the moment.

 

[Kahuna Cowboy]

What high end mod manufactures have stock sitting around on shelves they can't unload and are slashing prices to clear the stock to compete with it's clones? Anyone?

 

[crxess]

Question 1 - Simple Answer
Visit a B&M and Look at the Device you are interested in. Original/Clone, doesn't matter. some can have slight defects or be perfect.

Question 2 - Also fairly simple - Most look to clones to get decent Design/function without having to mortgage the house.{something they can trust to last} You can find just as much saving in purchasing a Non-clone Production piece if you are willing to invest the time.
The latest Sigelei 8w is a shining example of what can be produced at low cost. Averaging $30(US Dealers) it is well built, the bugs have been worked out and the darn thing just does what it is supposed to do - and does it well.
No fancy logos, no BS signatures or Serial #'s, just a solid functional Mod.
There are many good Production devices available without Breaking the Ego about Cloning -- you just have to look.

 

[Sirius]

LT -- Get a clone..no shame in it imo. Then if you want the original, then go for it if you can afford those.

 

[Ed_C]

Well the ONI mod was pre sold as a $150+ usa made device, but turned out to be a $15 chinese clone.



Also $200 for a Filipino made mod?
"Precision Filipino machining and engineering"?
No offense but .........?
Labor is cheaper than in China!
Somethin smells fishy and it ain't the shrimp flavored e juice.

Yeah, I had not heard about the ONI mod. Was it at least an original design or was it really a clone? I can deal with cheap Chinese made stuff, but what gets me is the stuff that used to be made in the US by companies that were known for quality, that are now made in China and sold for the same price. The outdoor equipment industry comes to mind. Companies like Lowe, Patagonia and North Face used make their stuff here and it all came with a lifetime warranty. Now it's made overseas, is of lower quality (IMHO) and might have a one year warranty.
As for the Filipino mods, I've wondered about that myself. Just because a country has low labor costs, doesn't mean that there's no one in the country that is capable of manufacturing a quality mod, but it does beg the question; "where's the money?" If the money was going to the manufacturer I'd say good for him, but I have no idea if that's the case.

 

[kungfujesus]

Made in America doesn't mean it is actually made in America. Most of the parts come from China even if one little part is made in America or assembled here.

This is a fact jack.

If you can afford to even put up a decent website in this niche industry, you're making parts in China.

There's nothing wrong with Chinese stuff. It is what it is, affordable and functional enough to sell. Nobody can afford the true precision work anyway and even if they can, they will moan and groan about how long it takes to get the custom order filled.

If you think differently, go ahead and invest 250K in a machine shop and make tanks/tubes for $300. See how successful your precision work makes you. American machinists have bigger fish to fry. They can't go around building parts for every little niche hobby we have or they'd go out of business.

 

[blueGrassTubb]

I am having a problem buying a clone for 2 reasons... and only two reasons because I will just assume if I ask if they are safe... that I'll get a multitude of responses that will ultimately result in learning the answer is yes and no....

so... question #1: I am afraid that if I got a clone that things that are important to me like fit and finish... the action of the firing button, connections and threading could be subpar quality... is this typical?

#2 - I have a problem with the whole ethical thing... like... I suppose I could afford a $250 mod... I am in my 40's... have 9 years of college a steady job and I have the dough in my budget for an anti-smoking pleasure device ;-)

so, I keep going back and forth trying to decide if cloning at this point stimulates the market or completely robs pioneer/inventor...

again, I know answers vary... but this seriously weighs on my conscious... thoughts?

Thanks, LT

1) The quality will vary from model to model and manufacturer to manufacturer. Some are trash. Some are virtually indistinguishable from the original in quality. The Hcigar Nemesis is said to be every bit as good as the original. I can say that the Tree of Life by Infinite is also exceptionally good. Ditto for the Hcigar Brass Stingray and 69 MODs. If you do a small bit of research you can find a clone that is every bit as good as the original.

2) So long as there aren't any warehouses full of unsold originals (in cases where clones have been made) the original modder isn't losing a dime because of clones, and may, in fact, benefit from them. The Infinite Tree of Life clone inspired me to seek an original that I otherwise would never have even considered for $200. The problem is that they're made of inobtanium. There are no more left except on the secondary market, and the original modder doesn't see a dime of that.

 

[blueGrassTubb]

I really didn't like the idea of "clones", but finally gave in to a copper/red Stingray. For my , I doubt if it really hurts many of the original builders, as most seem to sell all the mods that they make and it's really a different market. I'm totally speculating here, but it may even help improve their sells. As to how they feel about it, I would imagine that some are POed and some might feel that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Who knows? Like it or not, getting your mod cloned does indicate that your product has been well received. I think I read someplace that one builder posted that his mods are now being cloned on his FB page. All that being said, I still cannot help but feel that on some level they are kind of cheesey.
I've said this before, but there's not many options for interesting mods, that aren't clones, in the <$100 price range. I looked and I just couldn't find anything that I liked well enough to want to buy.

The maker of the Tree of Life (I forget the manufacturer) made comment about clones being made. He noted he was flattered and a bit excited because he knew it meant that the ToL was in high demand, but put in a dig on Chinese QC and hinted at it being a crap shoot (in general terms I'd agree).

What I can say, in that context, is that I have a Tree of Life clone, and it's the best clone I have. It's definitely moved to the top of the pack as far as my favorites are concerned. There are no quality issues (with mine at least) and after having closely inspected an original, I'd say that it's a pretty spot on clone in both fit, and finish. Even the engraving on the clone was as good in quality as the original.

That's because the <$100 original mech mod market is just about non-existent. They are few and far between. A good quality original mech will very likely cost >$150. I have two mech originals (and a handful of clones) and both were more than $150.

 

[blueGrassTubb]

What high end mod manufactures have stock sitting around on shelves they can't unload and are slashing prices to clear the stock to compete with it's clones? Anyone?

Crickets.

If you find an original MOD clogging up distribution channels (sitting in boxes in a storage facility somewhere) it's because they suck, not because they are facing any competition from clones.

 

[TheBeardedMann]

How are any of the hundreds of mods different from each other? Seriously though. Maybe a notch here or there is different. Maybe the logo is different. One's copper, another's brass, another's stainless steel. All of which matter ever so slightly. Honestly though, take a look at the Nemesis, King and Tree of Life. Same. I used to have crackers that looked like so many of these. And flashlights look like these too. Some are even identical to a flashlight. Now there are some mods that do look different, but many of these mods are the same except very small details. It's like Vanilla Ice explaining how Under Pressure is different from Ice, Ice Baby.
Example:
http://infinitevapor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Mechanical-Mods-MML.jpg
http://i01.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/938/648/085/1085648938_777.jpg

 

[rhean]

Crickets.

If you find an original MOD clogging up distribution channels (sitting in boxes in a storage facility somewhere) it's because they suck, not because they are facing any competition from clones.

Does anyone know, with any data backing, that clones have, in fact, hurt the market for originals? You have two options:

1. Clones steal market share from the originals, harming businesses.
2. Clones create market share for the originals by creating demand for the product.

Has the use of mods/rdas/rbas risen over the last few years?
If it has, how much of it is due to the availability of clones?
If it has, are clone makers the only ones to benefit, or are purchases of originals rising as well?

There's such passion on all sides whenever clones come up, but the passion is based on belief, not data. Where is the data?

 

[TheBeardedMann]

Does anyone know, with any data backing, that clones have, in fact, hurt the market for originals? You have two options:

1. Clones steal market share from the originals, harming businesses.
2. Clones create market share for the originals by creating demand for the product.

Has the use of mods/rdas/rbas risen over the last few years?
If it has, how much of it is due to the availability of clones?
If it has, are clone makers the only ones to benefit, or are purchases of originals rising as well?

There's such passion on all sides whenever clones come up, but the passion is based on belief, not data. Where is the data?

I am of the opinion that clones help originals. At a 10:1 price difference, the person buying a clone wouldn't buy an original. No loss of a sale due to a clone. But they may decide to buy an original down the road.
This doesn't apply specifically, but I would say this applies universally:
Fake Prada bags: Why counterfeits help high-end designers sell more of the real thing.

 

[Johnny Phatsaqs]

If originals were made by the thousands, maybe. But, as limited as they are, I don't think so. If anything, I think that the extreme limited availability of originals is helping the clone market. More than the price.

 

[Ed_C]

Does anyone know, with any data backing, that clones have, in fact, hurt the market for originals? You have two options:

1. Clones steal market share from the originals, harming businesses.
2. Clones create market share for the originals by creating demand for the product.

There's a third option:
3. Clone makers sell their products to a different market and have no financial impact on the makers of high-end originals

 

[TheBeardedMann]

There's a third option:
3. Clone makers sell their products to a different market and have no financial impact on the makers of high-end originals

Get back in your box and quit thinking outside of it!

 

[blueGrassTubb]

If originals were made by the thousands, maybe. But, as limited as they are, I don't think so. If anything, I think that the extreme limited availability of originals is helping the clone market. More than the price.

But we even have data from originals that do sell by the thousands. The Nemesis has sold thousands, in various different configurations and color combos, despite the fact that it's likely the most popular clone on the market being built by loads of clone manufacturers. And they continue to sell well. Most places don't have any in stock, and those few that do are still selling them at a premium.