Questions about Clone Quality and Ethics - Help a vet ;-)

[blueGrassTubb]

I'm a medievalist, and study an era where patents were unknown and people copied everything.

Me too! By training anyways. I studied under Kevin Kiernan at the University of Kentucky and worked on the Electronic Beowulf (amongst other projects).

You mention that everything was copied, and this has also lead me to my train of thought as well. We wouldn't have ANYTHING were it not for blatant copying. Chaucer (and every other medieval author) would have squat were it not for blatantly ripping off other people's work. Large chunks of his work are word for word copies of his predecessors (particularly the Italians). Virtually every Greek statue we know is not a Greek original, but a 1:1 Roman copy. And these are some of the greatest works of art the world has ever (or will ever) see, and none of that copying stifled anything. If anything, it allowed artists to take their craft further and advance their respective cultures.

 

[Bad Ninja]

Rhean:

If you use a lack of patent protection as a reason, then the reason is basically "Because I can get away with it". This has nothing to do with the actual action or morality of the action, it just deals with the consequence.
Stated in a purely logic sense, that is saying that if you can get away with it, it's OK to do it. I am sure that you can see where that line of reasoning could lead in life.

As for damages, while it would be interesting to see (I personally think that the market prices and availability for originals shows that the effect is minimal, but the effect upon new development is probably severe).
However, looking at damages is once again skipping over the action, and looking at the consequence. This falls into the same logic as above - if I can get away with it, it's good.

It's just trying to justify buying counterfeits. Semantics and hairsplitting won't change that fact.

There are two sides to every coin.
No Modder owns the rights to the utility design.
Most don't even own a registered logo.
Never in stock.
Nightmare playing raffle games and waiting lists.

Poor business models abound.
Chinese cloners show that same tools, same metals, same design.. Originals re prices ten times above their clones.
The price gap reflects labor.
That's one helluva profit margin for any company being defended on the rounds of ethical business practices.

Before you start about low paid Chinese workers, explain how this applies to $200 Filipino mods.

Don't get me started on the scummy flippers of used mods (no wonder clones are attacked ...no more getting 500$ for a scuffed up used vela)

 

[blueGrassTubb]

Without actual, reliable data proving real damage, this discussion goes nowhere.

The only "data" we have is what can be extrapolated from what we can see. We obviously don't have sales figures and such, but we can see that most of the stores that sell high end MODs are perpetually sold out of nearly all of them, which means that they seem to be moving through the market just fine.

Buying clones is what lead to me start buying originals as well. I was dead set against a bottom button MOD until I bought a clone in order to try out bottom button MODs, and discovered they aren't that bad. In fact, they're quite good. That experience lead me to buying a beautiful Akuma by GP Custom (which just arrived today and is every bit as exquisite as I had hoped it would be). Had I not given a bottom button a fair shot with a low dollar investment, I never would have even looked at a bottom button original, much less bought one that is a short run extra special MOD from some far away land (Philippines), and paid top dollar while I was at it.

Here is a marketing pic of the Akuma. I'll post more of mine in another thread.

 

[blueGrassTubb]

Rhean:

If you use a lack of patent protection as a reason, then the reason is basically "Because I can get away with it". This has nothing to do with the actual action or morality of the action, it just deals with the consequence.

Nonsense. You do realize that protection of "intellectual property" (as if one can own an idea) is a very new development in human history, right?

Is the neolithic man who copied some other neolithic man's torch or knife or spear or hut guilty of being unethical? I hardly think so.

This is not a moral or ethical issue. The idea of "intellectual property" is solely and firmly rooted in law as a means of protectionism. Without government to enforce the idea of "intellectual property" it doesn't exist. Ethics has nothing to do with it.

As for damages, while it would be interesting to see (I personally think that the market prices and availability for originals shows that the effect is minimal, but the effect upon new development is probably severe).

Tell Svoemesto that they've been hindered by The Russian. In fact, The Russian blatantly copying the Kayfun forced Svoemesto to advance the Kayfuns in order to stay competitive. Competition ensures advancement, it doesn't hinder it.

Either way, I maintain that the cloning manufacturers generally don't directly compete with original modders, but with other cloning manufacturers. If they did, you would see a race to the bottom in both price and quality (because of the vast difference in price) and the added cost of R&D by original modders).

However, looking at damages is once again skipping over the action, and looking at the consequence. This falls into the same logic as above - if I can get away with it, it's good.

It's just trying to justify buying counterfeits. Semantics and hairsplitting won't change that fact.

No. It's using an alternate understanding of what copying v counterfeiting is. One that you refuse to accept as valid and instead try to treat it as a moral issue rather than a strictly legal one.

 

[Chelonian]

Nonsense. You do realize that protection of "intellectual property" (as if one can own an idea) is a very new development in human history, right?


This is not a moral or ethical issue. The idea of "intellectual property" is solely and firmly rooted in law as a means of protectionism. Without government to enforce the idea of "intellectual property" it doesn't exist. Ethics has nothing to do with it.



Tell Svoemesto that they've been hindered by The Russian. In fact, The Russian blatantly copying the Kayfun forced Svoemesto to advance the Kayfuns in order to stay competitive. Competition ensures advancement, it doesn't hinder it.

Either way, I maintain that the cloning manufacturers generally don't directly compete with original modders, but with other cloning manufacturers. If they did, you would see a race to the bottom in both price and quality (because of the vast difference in price) and the added cost of R&D by original modders).



No. It's using an alternate understanding of what copying v counterfeiting is. One that you refuse to accept as valid and instead try to treat it as a moral issue rather than a strictly legal one.

1) Neolithic Man as a justification? Really? Even if we were to base our society off of Neolithic principles, we don't know what they are. Show me a written record of Neolithic society please. If you can't find one, then this subject is pure speculation. Seeing as you want to use ancient history as justification for modern action, is slavery OK, and women's sufferage bad? After all, it's how we used to do it.

And "wouldn't exist without government enforcement"? I don't even know where to connect this statement with clones.

2)Show me, once again, where intellectual property is protectionism only, not legal or moral. It's codified law, for god's sake. It doesn't GET anymore legal than that. The reason it's law is to keep others from blatantly stealing the designs and products of others. What else could it be for? Are you saying that copyright law and intellectual property laws exist only as a form of crony capitalism?

3) Kayfun and Upper Class Technologies compete on the same level of price. From my understanding, the 91% forced the creation of the Light+. I certainly couldn't find an air control Kayfun Light at the time the 91% was released. It's the only Russian I own for that very reason. However, UTC doesn't parade the Kayfun logo on it's product. "Clones" do have a fake logo. There is only ONE reason they do that. To counterfeit the original, UNLESS they stamp the actual product with a label stating it's a clone. Not copying a logo is a huge difference, and it's funny you should choose the Russian as an example for that very reason.

5) Of course counterfeit don't compete directly with the originals. The whole point of the existence of a counterfeit is parasitical WITH the original, not to compete with it.

4)There is no alternate definition of counterfeit. If you copy something right down to a fake logo and serial number, and have no marking to proclaim it a copy, it's a counterfeit. A fact just is, independent of morals.

 

[ej1024]

Firsts of all COPPER HADES IS NOT A CLONE,CUZ IT DOESN'T EXIST.. I only buy authentic,battery,rda, battery holder I will never spend over $50, the real manufacturer should lower the prices of their products,like what rip trippers said OH THATS A TROPHY..

Sent from my LUMIA 1520 Tapatalk

 

[Chelonian]

Firsts of all COPPER HADES IS NOT A CLONE,CUZ IT DOESN'T EXIST.. I only buy authentic,battery,rda, battery holder I will never spend over $50, the real manufacturer should lower the prices of their products,like what rip trippers said OH THATS A TROPHY..

Sent from my LUMIA 1520 Tapatalk

Oh, my...RipTrippers said that.

Goodness.

 

[minimalsaint]

Man, can I call it or what.

This dog just won't stop chasing its tail. For the love of god, just follow your own moral compass, lay your money down with whom and where you see fit, and your world continues to turn just like everyone else's.
In my humble opinion, the clone owners are becoming even more militant than the original owners. While there is no need to bash on anyone for buying a clone, likewise should be said for the constant jabs taken by clone owners at the people who choose to spend their money on originals or the manufacturers who produce them. The road runs in both directions.

 

[Bad Ninja]

Man, can I call it or what.

This dog just won't stop chasing its tail. For the love of god, just follow your own moral compass, lay your money down with whom and where you see fit, and your world continues to turn just like everyone else's.
In my humble opinion, the clone owners are becoming even more militant than the original owners. While there is no need to bash on anyone for buying a clone, likewise should be said for the constant jabs taken by clone owners at the people who choose to spend their money on originals or the manufacturers who produce them. The road runs in both directions.

Nope.
Read the threads.
Every single argument started when someone bashes a clone owner by saying:
They are unethical
They can't afford an original
They don't support the "artist"
They have lower standards in life.
Then come the insults and demeaning analogies.

When attacked an insulted, people will retaliate.

I've never seen any clone owner attack a legit mod owner unprovoked.

Poke the bear and you'll see it's claws.

 

[vapo jam]

personally, i have a love/hate relationship with clones, but also with a lot of om's nowadays.

ethically, do i agree with cloning? no, especially when original logos, artwork, and serial numbers are copied. whether or not you choose to accept it, this is counterfeiting, even if the vendor and manufacturer explicitly state that it's a clone in their advertising. i personally believe that this 'cheapens' the original - i was inactive on the forums for several months, and when i first came back was very surprised that apparently everyone now has a nemesis and a caravela (it took me a while to realize that "clone" was implied, and that someone who owns an original now has to specify that...).

however, a lot of "high-end" manufacturers seem to be taking advantage of the market by creating artificial demand with low production, especially in the tube mod segment. i mean, seriously, is a stingray/king mod/nemesis really that innovative, or did someone just slap some new artwork on existing designs and release it in limited quantities? the patriot rda (as well as many other "high-end" rda's) looks an awful lot like a big nimbus to me...

i know everyone is different, but i guess my litmus test would be the "originality" of the original device. i'm willing to spend money on real grand vapor products because the sentinel and (especially) the trident were innovative products. i have a poldiac because it is an innovative product. i have a real nimbus because at the time it was an innovative product.

however, (i don't want to say never, but) i can't see myself spending a lot of money on an "original" without any real innovations. i probably wouldn't buy a clone either, but that may just be because of my distaste for both parties (the om and the cloner) trying to take advantage of the market (at least in my perception).

 

[lasttango]

WOW! Lots of good information here...

...and I did go to my B&M yesterday and played with about 10 different clones... I liked the Stingray one a lot - I didn't pull the trigger though... too many variables...

man, I have been at this for almost 5 years and I really want to have my own fog machine...

I now have new confusions...

one, I have learned that some clones are better than others...
two, I now know that I need to learn a bit more about battery science before I jump into this thing

anyway, I have my eye on a stingray clone from hcigar and a patriot clone thanks to this thread...

and with the exception of Kato's Hammer, I really haven't found any of the originals I want anywhere except on the buy/sell forums... they seem out of stock everywhere.

 

[blueGrassTubb]

WOW! Lots of good information here...

...and I did go to my B&M yesterday and played with about 10 different clones... I liked the Stingray one a lot - I didn't pull the trigger though... too many variables...

man, I have been at this for almost 5 years and I really want to have my own fog machine...

I now have new confusions...

one, I have learned that some clones are better than others...
two, I now know that I need to learn a bit more about battery science before I jump into this thing

anyway, I have my eye on a stingray clone from hcigar and a patriot clone thanks to this thread...

and with the exception of Kato's Hammer, I really haven't found any of the originals I want anywhere except on the buy/sell forums... they seem out of stock everywhere.

You don't really need to know much at all about battery science. If you want to be safe no matter what size configuration you go with, you can buy the efest purple batteries. The 18350 can run 10.5A, the 18500 15A, and the 18650 30A.

 

[Chelonian]

Nope.
Read the threads.
Every single argument started when someone bashes a clone owner by saying:
They are unethical
They can't afford an original
They don't support the "artist"
They have lower standards in life.
Then come the insults and demeaning analogies.

When attacked an insulted, people will retaliate.

I've never seen any clone owner attack a legit mod owner unprovoked.

Poke the bear and you'll see it's claws.

Bad Ninja, never once did I, or anyone I saw attack a clone owner (in this thread). iI you consider me or anyone else saying that a 1:1 clone is a counterfeit as an attack, it's not. Or at least not in my case. It's a fact.

I personally think it's wrong, and it's certainly a counterfeit if it isn't stamped somewhere on a 1:1 clone "clone" or something. The idea that since you know it's not real is OK does not compute. Knowledge doesn't cancel an action. By that logic if someone knows that they are being robbed, it would be OK.

As a matter of fact, I couldn't care less what someone spends their money on. And I know that if someone is OK with buying clones, there is nothing that I or anyone else can say or do to change that.

The only reason that I post in these sort of threads is because of the mental acrobatics that some clone buyers engage in.

It amuses me to no end.

As a matter of fact, there are a few clone buyers here that actually seem to have a grudge against the makers of originals, which I also find hilarious.

If there is any bashing going on (and there shouldn't be) it's at the very least equal on both sides.

So please, understand this : you buying a clone means nothing to me. Your justifications for it is what I enjoy. These threads do nothing. If anything, it attracts more clone buyers.

 

[Ed_C]

I personally think it's wrong, and it's certainly a counterfeit if it isn't stamped somewhere on a 1:1 clone "clone" or something. The idea that since you know it's not real is OK does not compute. Knowledge doesn't cancel an action.

I'd disagree to some extent with this because according to Websters:
Counterfeit: made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive.
Now, I suppose to some extent some people might be trying to deceive the people that see them using their clones, but no one is deceiving the purchaser of the product. At least, not under most circumstances.

 

[Chelonian]

I'd disagree to some extent with this because according to Websters:
Counterfeit: made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive.
Now, I suppose to some extent some people might be trying to deceive the people that see them using their clones, but no one is deceiving the purchaser of the product. At least, not under most circumstances.

I can see why you would make this argument.

But if we pursue that line of inquiry a little further, the question of why they don't stamp their 1:1 products with "Replica" or it's equivalent must be asked.

Also, if it's perfectly OK to do that, then why aren't we flooded with tons of products that are just like their counterpart, but knowingly purchased anyways?

As a matter of fact, if that were OK, then there would be no standing for patents or product/intellectual property rights to begin with.

If you came up with a product, you would just hand the designs out to whoever wanted them...your competitors, whoever.

Edit - (as this has been gone over before, I am trying to be clear )

When you are manufacturing something as a direct 1:1 copy, and it's not your design or something that you are not licensed to produce, it is customary to mark your product as a replica, EPSECIALLY when you copy the LOGO.

The fact that mods haven't been patented changes the result of the act of cloning, not what the action of cloning itself is.

PS

The part about me being amused doesn't apply to a conversation such as this. Thanks for the intelligent discourse

 

[Bad Ninja]

Bad Ninja, never once did I, or anyone I saw attack a clone owner (in this thread). iI you consider me or anyone else saying that a 1:1 clone is a counterfeit as an attack, it's not. Or at least not in my case. It's a fact.

I personally think it's wrong, and it's certainly a counterfeit if it isn't stamped somewhere on a 1:1 clone "clone" or something. The idea that since you know it's not real is OK does not compute. Knowledge doesn't cancel an action. By that logic if someone knows that they are being robbed, it would be OK.

As a matter of fact, I couldn't care less what someone spends their money on. And I know that if someone is OK with buying clones, there is nothing that I or anyone else can say or do to change that.

The only reason that I post in these sort of threads is because of the mental acrobatics that some clone buyers engage in.

It amuses me to no end.

As a matter of fact, there are a few clone buyers here that actually seem to have a grudge against the makers of originals, which I also find hilarious.

If there is any bashing going on (and there shouldn't be) it's at the very least equal on both sides.

So please, understand this : you buying a clone means nothing to me. Your justifications for it is what I enjoy. These threads do nothing. If anything, it attracts more clone buyers.

Lol I was not referring to this thread specifically.
If you have never seen a clone owner attacked on ECF you have my read many threads.
Clone buyers aren't threatened at all.

As far as justification, you can only speculate and assume.
You really have no clue why someone makes a purchase unless they tell you.

The hilarious part is the way legit owners insult clone owners by attacking their financial situation.
Like spending more money makes you a better person.
News flash: it doesn't.
Your e cig purchases do not reflect your financial situation in life.

 

[Chelonian]

I should hope no one is threatened. This is an internet forum.

Neither side should attack the other, if no other reason other than that it's useless. No one is going to change their minds.

As for speculation, not really. It's in the open, right in the posts most of the time.

Why someone buys a clone is irrelevant to what I am talking about that direct, 1:1 clones are counterfeit, purchased knowingly or not.

As for the last part of your post....I have read ALOT of these type of threads, and I can't recall offhand anything like that.
Why on earth would you bring money into this? Apart from a few, Like Otto Carters and limited editions made with precious metals, originals aren't much money by any western measure.

Who is impressed by something that cost $200 - $300? Junior High schoolers maybe? (edit - even if that amount is difficult for someone's budget in the west, I doubt that an object costing that would impress them)

Why would you even bring that last bit up?

 

[Ed_C]

I can see why you would make this argument.

But if we pursue that line of inquiry a little further, the question of why they don't stamp their 1:1 products with "Replica" or it's equivalent must be asked.

Also, if it's perfectly OK to do that, then why aren't we flooded with tons of products that are just like their counterpart, but knowingly purchased anyways?

As a matter of fact, if that were OK, then there would be no standing for patents or product/intellectual property rights to begin with.

If you came up with a product, you would just hand the designs out to whoever wanted them...your competitors, whoever.

Edit - (as this has been gone over before, I am trying to be clear )

When you are manufacturing something as a direct 1:1 copy, and it's not your design or something that you are not licensed to produce, it is customary to mark your product as a replica, EPSECIALLY when you copy the LOGO.

The fact that mods haven't been patented changes the result of the act of cloning, not what the action of cloning itself is.

PS

The part about me being amused doesn't apply to a conversation such as this. Thanks for the intelligent discourse

The simple answer to to why they don't stamp "replica" on the side on their clones, is that there's no legal reason to do this. Most of the products we buy are from large corporations who have lawyers to protect their products. If you have money you can do this. Coke even has their color red trademarked. Like I've said before, I think cloning is a bit cheesey and I'd love to see more interesting designs that aren't direct clones, at lower price points, but this doesn't seem to be happening. They rather make a design that has a track record, than to try something that they aren't sure would be well received.

 

[Chelonian]

So they are benefitting from someone else's design.

They could do so without copying the logo, and put their own name on it were that the case.

Why don't you think they do that?

I wouldn't have a problem with a 1:1 copy with a different logo.

Only one reason they wouldn't do that.

The same reason that counterfeiters do it.....they are the same thing as counterfeiters.

As for no patent - why does everyone keep thinking that different consequences make the action different?

If you get away with murder, it's still murder, for example.

 

[Ed_C]

So they are benefitting from someone else's design.

They could do so without copying the logo, and put their own name on it were that the case.

Why don't you think they do that?

I wouldn't have a problem with a 1:1 copy with a different logo.

Only one reason they wouldn't do that.

The same reason that counterfeiters do it.....they are the same thing as counterfeiters.

As for no patent - why does everyone keep thinking that different consequences make the action different?

If you get away with murder, it's still murder, for example.

There is at least one mod that's a clone with a different logo and there's at least a couple with no logos. I imagine they will make more like this, if they become popular. Counterfeiting, along with murder, requires intent. You're making my argument.