Ranting on ignorance.

[zahzoo]

I have the hardware. If juice is banned I will just go to Tractor Supply and buy USP grade PG and then over to Walmart for some USP VG and find a place that will sell me USP grade nic in 100mg strength. Lorann's Flavorings has most of the cake and candy additives I need for sweet vapes, but the plain old PG/VG mix is enough like tobacco for me to be happy.

All will be fine. I don't see hardware being outlawed. I actually believe that the powers that be realize that vaping is better than smoking. It's the tobacco tax revenue they receive that makes them want to reduce the competition. For those who just hate the act of smoking, those people will always be trying to make our lives match theirs.

Don't talk about how bad my ecig is for me while you are eating a double cheesburger and a large chocolate/mocha shake and feeding your kids chicken nuggets with glycerin plasticizer ingredients.

^^This...

I figure the pending regulatory efforts can't touch 2nd/3rd generation gear... refillable tanks, batteries, mods, wicks, kanthal wire, etc... none of it can be classified as a tobacco product.

Flavorings, PG, VG, etc... same deal all have non-vaping applications as well.

So all that's left is pre-filled cig-a-likes, cartridges and then finally the raw liquid nicotine. Liquid nicotine can be regulated but I can't see them banning it outright or only allowing pre-filled stuff to be bought and sold.

On all the rest of the issues with ignorance and ANTZ related subjects... I just politely try to educate folks where possible. I honestly don't give a rat's rear-end what they think. Facts and truth stand up well...

 

[Bunnykiller]

as the warning cone sez...

 

[icyblack]

Absolutely. If the vapor going going into the vaper's lungs is "safer" then logic dictates that the vapor coming out is also safer. Unless they/you somehow feel that our lungs are adding 4000 chemicals and 69 carcinogens to the vapor between the inhale and the exhale then it IS safer for everyone.

The question is just how safe though. Here is my own research of the ingredients:

1. Propylene Glycol - PG has been used as the aqueous-based chemical additive in asthma inhalers and nebulizers since the 1950s, with no serious side effects known. PG, because of its water-retaining properties, is the compound of choice for delivering atomized medication. It is also a common diluent for injectable medications, constituting 40 percent of the intravenous form of Phenytoin, an anti-seizure drug. The FDA includes Propylene glycol on its list of substances Generally Recognized as Safe (GRAS), and it meets the requirements of acceptable compounds within Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulations. Considering PG has been widely used for many years without serious side effects, the substance can reasonably said to be of negligible concern.

2. Vegetable Glycerine - VG is one of the most benign organic liquids known to man. It is hype-allergenic, non-carcinigeic, non teratogenic and non-mutagenic. It is metabolized quite easily by a process called beta-oxidation. This process results in the production of CO2 and H2O and is a quite normal, common, and natural catabolic process. VG is of low toxicity when injested, inhaled, or in contact with skin. The most common noted side effect of inhalation of e-liquid containing vegetable glycerin is a dry mouth, sore throat, and increased thirst. These symptoms usually last just a few days to a week as the body gets used to the vegetable glycerin.

3. Flavorings - AFAIK all flavorings used are already approved by the FDA for use in food. You are already inhaling the flavorings every time you SMELL something made with them. When you understand how smell works, you know there can be no other way. When you smell a fresh Apple Pie baking, it works because tiny particles from the pie crust, the apples, and the cinnamon are breaking off, flying through the air, into your nose where special fibers in your nose determine what particles are in the air as it passes through on it's way to your lungs. So there is no way for you to smell anything without the particles getting into your lungs.
Since these flavorings have been used for years, if inhalation was a problem, we would already know about it.

4. Nicotine - Since this is the primary addictive agent in analogs this is WHY most people turn to vaping instead of quitting cold turkey. It is NOT known to be a carcinogen and is found in nearly every stop smoking aid including the gum, patches, and lozenges. While not necessarily safe, it is approved by the FDA for LONG TERM USE in other stop smoking aids.

Bottom line, I have ZERO concerns at this point about vapor being harmful beyond any risks associated with the nicotine itself.

Key words like "generally safer", "AFAIK", "only known side effects" - but YOU have ZERO concerns - cause it's safer. Cigarettes USED to be considered safe. Good luck selling it to the public lung that put up with smokers crap for years... Safer means more safe than the actual thing - but isn't considered 100% safe. That's unfortunate isn't it.

 

[icyblack]

I want the non-smoking world to get out of my face and out of my business about things that do not concern them. I want them to stop lying about things and stop trying to control what other consenting adults do. It's beyond rampant in Utah, we can't have gay marriage, we have to scan ID to get into a bar, now they want to raise the smoking age to 21 and ban online sales of vaping supplies. Crimony enough is enough.

I watched Sen. Paul Ray tell the Utah legislature that his daughter's middle school confiscated 200 e-cigs from students in one day. A blatant lie. In what world is that an ok thing to do? It's just as bad as big tobacco telling everyone that smoking wasn't harmful when they knew full well that it was. A lie is a lie, and it's the non-smokers now who are telling the biggest ones.

I got a reply to an email I sent our senate. The senator said he doesn't like nicotine or its effects and especially not on children. This is the mindset we are up against. "I don't like..." "Children might be able to..." I could have easily gone off of what things have a negative effect on children but are not banned (but I didn't). But I'm not a child nor recommending vaping for children. Nor opposing legislation on any age restrictions.

Now, sadly, some people will be relieved if the FDA comes out and says they can't find a hazard in vaping. The same FDA that said Chantix and Zyban aren't hazardous.

Just as an aside, I am wondering why, when so many large and vest interests have everything to gain from showing that vaping is hazardous, it hasn't been done yet. It can't be that hard if it's true. I think people are having a hard time conjuring up actual facts against it and that is why we're now focusing on "normalizing" and "what about the children" arguments.

And there you go, where's the golf clap icon? Personalized with "I" rather than "We" is the way it should be. We Canadians laugh at the loss of rights in the good ol USA but most can't see it happening in our own back yard - but it is happening. We are being controlled and dominated by the nanny state but not to the same end as you are. Bars here in Alberta are using the barpass system and patting down customers as their "implied consent" rules - it's a papers please society.

Government need to .... out of our lives, whole heartedly agree but what is it going to take is the question.

 

[ScottP]

Key words like "generally safer", "AFAIK", "only known side effects" - but YOU have ZERO concerns - cause it's safer. Cigarettes USED to be considered safe. Good luck selling it to the public lung that put up with smokers crap for years... Safer means more safe than the actual thing - but isn't considered 100% safe. That's unfortunate isn't it.

What part of every thing in the liquid is individually FDA APPROVED are you not getting? I use the word safer only because NOTHING IS 100% safe. Our water and air has contaminates so even those things are not 100% safe. I have more concerns breathing the air of most major cities than about what's in my vapor.

 

[ScottP]

Sorry, it looks like we have strayed from the point I was making while answering the initial question. So one more time:

Are you seriously going to sell vaping to a non-smoker as a safer alternative for them as well and expect them to buy it?

Again. If the vapor is safer than smoke going into a person's lungs, then obviously the vapor coming out is safer...thus safer for anyone around. Anyone that needs to be convinced of this fundamental logic is either stupid or is so dead set against it that they wouldn't be convinced regardless of any proof they were shown.

Also as I have already said PG has been inhaled for over 60 years so I think we know that is safe. Unless you think the "save the children crowd" should go pull all the asthma inhalers from the hands of the children that need them. VG is FDA approved for food and medicine including INJECTABLE medicine. The only risks from VG is minor allergic reaction. The food flavors as mentioned we have inhaled for YEARS smelling our food. It may turn out some are not safe, if so then we have a MUCH bigger problem with our food supply than our vaping supply. Finally nicotine...regardless of risks associated with this...IT IS NOT FOUND IN THE EXHALED VAPOR!!!!!!!!

I seriously question the mentality of anyone that spends a fortune to kill themselves slowly over decades of their life with a well documented known carcinogen, then when they find an alternative that only uses FDA approved ingredients and contains NO KNOWN CARCINOGENS...they can't help but question the safety of the new choice. REALLY!?!?! NOW you are concerned for your safety?

EDIT: Maybe you are right and we should all just go back to smoking since vaping MIGHT have some form of minor risk associated with it.

 

[icyblack]

Scott, FDA approval means squat and we all know why. The FDA made alot of stupid approvals over the years that they had to reverse, and there are still things that are approved that make me shake my head.

I have more concerns breathing the air of most major cities than about what's in my vapor.

Consider the ideal that you were a smoker - and that you consider vaping to be a much safer product - I get that as a smoker. Non-smokers only see the "safer than a cigarette" but question how safe can it be. I get that individually, the products aren't bad - but mix them together and combust it, what's the chemistry behind it. I don't know, neither do you? What am I inhaling when I taste the burnt vapor?

Just trying to throw in the devil's advocate here - and it doesn't seem that vapers like it. I get what vapers are saying, but I also get what the non-smoking aspect of the public lung are saying too.

 

[icyblack]

Sorry, it looks like we have strayed from the point I was making while answering the initial question. So one more time:



Again. If the vapor is safer than smoke going into a person's lungs, then obviously the vapor coming out is safer...thus safer for anyone around. Anyone that needs to be convinced of this fundamental logic is either stupid or is so dead set against it that they wouldn't be convinced regardless of any proof they were shown.

Also as I have already said PG has been inhaled for over 60 years so I think we know that is safe. Unless you think the "save the children crowd" should go pull all the asthma inhalers from the hands of the children that need them. VG is FDA approved for food and medicine including INJECTABLE medicine. The only risks from VG is minor allergic reaction. The food flavors as mentioned we have inhaled for YEARS smelling our food. It may turn out some are not safe, if so then we have a MUCH bigger problem with our food supply than our vaping supply. Finally nicotine...regardless of risks associated with this...IT IS NOT FOUND IN THE EXHALED VAPOR!!!!!!!!

I seriously question the mentality of anyone that spends a fortune to kill themselves slowly over decades of their life with a well documented known carcinogen, then when they find an alternative that only uses FDA approved ingredients and contains NO KNOWN CARCINOGENS...they can't help but question the safety of the new choice. REALLY!?!?! NOW you are concerned for your safety?

EDIT: Maybe you are right and we should all just go back to smoking since vaping MIGHT have some form of minor risk associated with it.

I smoked for 26 years, and i'm sitting here VAPING. Now i'm asking questions, and trying to see things from a non-smokers perspective.

And people are getting upset - speaks volumes.

 

[bones1274]

I read postings in here about people chain vaping 36 mg juice like it's a good thing. Is it really?
Is that a good trade off? Going from a pack a day of the real thing to what? I'm not even sure of the math – are you? How many packs a day does that equate to in nicotine? Is anyone here going to tell me that 36 mg vapor exhaled from your lungs is “nicotine free”? And don't give me the crap about tomato's and other veggies containing nic. I've already felt the OD effects of nicotine and only vape 18 mg max.
</flamesuit>

Here is a good starting point for nicotine equivalency. It may not be 100% accurate, but it is a good starting point:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ette-vs-e-cigarette-nicotine-equivalency.html

As for the veggies, here is an article by the New England Journal of Medicine concerning their nicotine content. The attached graph breaks it down to actual content and compares it to second hand exposure:

MMS: Error

 

[ScottP]

And people are getting upset - speaks volumes.

I apologise if I sounded angry. I am not. I do tend to over use caps to stress points again I apologise.

 

[Bramble]

[...]

Government need to .... out of our lives, whole heartedly agree but what is it going to take is the question.

I don't know... maybe the zombie apocalypse would distract them from other people's own business.

I still can't get over them wanting to raise the smoking age to 21. What these *elected* officials are saying is that any 18-20 year olds who voted for them were not of age to make critical decisions. In that case what are they doing voting? Voting for people like them, I guess maybe they have a point. Smoking age is already 19 in Utah so there are people old enough to vote and go to war but not old enough to buy their own cigarettes? Something is very wrong.

 

[Bramble]

Here is a good starting point for nicotine equivalency. It may not be 100% accurate, but it is a good starting point:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ette-vs-e-cigarette-nicotine-equivalency.html

As for the veggies, here is an article by the New England Journal of Medicine concerning their nicotine content. The attached graph breaks it down to actual content and compares it to second hand exposure:

MMS: Error

Would most people say that vaping is pretty self-regulating? That is, you may not know the number but you can tell if you're getting more or less nicotine than what you got with smoking?

I think self-regulating of nicotine dosage is one of the things that makes vaping effective. No one is nic-ing themselves to death on vape. It's not like you see the experiments on rats where, given unlimited access to a drug, they kill themselves on it. We seem to be vaping the amount we are used to getting from cigarettes. Just a theory, but it makes sense at least to me LOL.

 

[Brusky]

I smoked for 26 years, and i'm sitting here VAPING. Now i'm asking questions, and trying to see things from a non-smokers perspective.

And people are getting upset - speaks volumes.

The definition of ignorance should be; A person who believes they are not ignorant.

There are people who believe in gay marriage, and there are people who do not.

There are people who believe big tobacco is only providing a product, and there are people who believe they are the devil.

There are people who believe we should be allowed to vape everywhere and there are people who believe we shouldn't subject everyone with our behavior, regardless of how safe it is.

Whose right whose wrong? Does not matter as these are opinionated topics filled with ignorance on both sides. What it will and should come down to is, what will please the majority?




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[Seann.V91]

That stupid b??ch, they actually made flavors to target people who want but can't eat dessert flavors but cape them instead. Btw I think they should regulate the age of purchase, I'd say regulate it to 21 year olds where as anyone younger than that will spread even more ignorance and younger will most likely vape anywhere in public to the point where there so many complaints where cities and businesses will have to ban vapor devices in public environments...he'll even have us stand 25 ft away from a ....... public door or indoor vaping (other than houses) but I'm 23 and maybe I just think younger kids nowadays will f?ck up the legacy of vaping for us veterans. That and it's a gateway to smoke something, like it or not but that's a fact. Anyways that lady at your work and shove a mech mod in it

 

[DC2]

What it will and should come down to is, what will please the majority?

Tyranny of the majority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Brusky]

Tyranny of the majority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now that's skewing democracy to the severe spectrum on the line of autocratic ruling..

Now in a true democracy both sides have equal opportunity which can lead to a compromise to please the majority.




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[Aviz]

I usually have a good experience with just explaining. people will listen once you tell them nicotine was shown to prevent Alzheimer disease, the smoke is what kills and this device is basically based on Asthma inhalers. simplistic, but worked specially with the older folks. We should not look down on the mentally challenged, have compassion also keep in mind - they outnumber us !

 

[hcour]

People are idiots. I saw my doctor a year ago, had been vaping for six months at the time, smoke-free from day one. She's asking the general health questions about diet, exercise, etc. Asks me about smoking, I proudly tell her that I've been off the smokes for six months, that I'd taken up ecigs. Without losing a beat, no positive reaction at all, she asks if I'm tapering off of the ecigs so I can "qet completely free of nicotine?" She also warned me that some of her patients had "gotten infections" from ecigs.

This is a friggin' doctor, for crimeny! Rather than encouraging me for quitting that lifelong habit-of-self-destruction, she pretty much scolded me for vaping!

 

[jpargana]

I've read plenty of people's ranting on here, my turn.

I was at the grocery store (one I use to work at) and an old coworker noticed my PV (which I was not using). I tried explaining what it was and she as a close-minded non smoker didn't hear a word. She genuinely believes nicotine is the carcinogen in cigarettes and likewise my vape is just as bad. The cherry on top of my headache is when I mentioned the different flavors she responded "that just tells you they are targeting kids"

I have no words to express my annoyance at this ignorance... At least no words the moderators will let me post.

Well. No point in trying to explain to a brick why it's red, I guess...

Once, I had a close-minded SMOKER telling a friend of mine (recent convert) the "He would be better off with a cigarette, because no-one knows what's in there". While holding a lit cigarette in her fingers. After some discussion, she told us "You really should think twice before using that thing just because it's a 'new style', and consider the consequences"... It was a 'new style' for HER alone. I had been vaping for about four years back then. My friend knew about the e-cig since that time also, because we used to talk about it (new researches, market evolution, and so forth)... and this girl actually believed she already knew enough to lecture us about the e-cig...


My experience? Curious people will ask you questions, because they are eager to learn something new. Those, I try to educate to the best of my knowledge (heck, it's been five years now, I believe I know something more than the 'average Joe'...


Now, THOSE types, I don't bother... no use. People who are so deep in the 'scientific knowledge' they got from the news, people who are very opiniated, and yet very mis-informed, they're not worth the trouble. You'll only end up tired and frustrated.

Those people, I usually just tell "I'm really sorry you actually believe that. I had a different opinion about you, and thought you were wiser than that..."

Maybe, just maybe, those people will feel a little insulted, and by making their own research to 'prove' me wrong later, will discover it's they who were wrong all along. That's something they have to discover for themselves. No logic, no reasoning, will make that kind of people admit that they're wrong, if someone else points it out to them.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[Bramble]

Now that's skewing democracy to the severe spectrum on the line of autocratic ruling..

Now in a true democracy both sides have equal opportunity which can lead to a compromise to please the majority.




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But we live in a republic, with a constitution - and one that includes the phrase, Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness. That means it doesn't matter if the majority likes something, they should have to present compelling information and rationale before they start limiting freedoms. At the very least, new laws should solve a problem or limit harm, not cause more. The case is there for banning smoking but not for vaping.

That is how I replied to the Senator from Utah who responded to me (re: banning internet sales). So far we have no facts on the prevalence of teenagers getting vapes from the Internet. We only have surveys asking kids if they had an e-cig and where they got it - and that's no basis to make laws. What kid is going to admit that they either stole it, used fake ID, got an older person to buy it, or had their buddy at the gas station buy it for them. I argued that banning internet sales won't be effective in any of those cases, or with a kid who has so much autonomy that they have a debit card AND a shipping address where no one will say anything about the packages that arrive.

I should have been a lawyer. I'd probably be rich. But I doubt I'd be having a very good time. LOL