Ranting on ignorance.

[beckdg]

they even had footage of one of the bombings. it was certainly very successful. i didn't stick around for the rest of the story. had to walk away.

 

[Bramble]

The BS about protecting the children is the classic way to get into the minds of the masses to get a ban in place. People generally look at this as a 'good' thing and will go along with it. If the majority isn't raising hell about it then they can do what they want. If that is allowed to continue then there is no limit to what can be done in the name of keeping your children safe. Your children are your responsibility, not the governments.

When I was in Boise ID recently visiting family, we were at a family friendly pub and one of our friends had her young son with her (I think he's 10). When he asked about the PV's she just said, "Those are for people who smoke or are quitting smoking." He just said "Oh ok, I get it." He understood it wasn't something for people who don't smoke or for young people, and there wasn't any further issue about it.

I think some people don't want to talk to their kids. It's like they seriously think that if a kid sees something, there's no way to tell them they can't have it. Hence what we call here the "Zion Curtain." In a restaurant, drinks have to be mixed behind a partition so that kids can't see the drink being made. It's nuts here. I'm going to move to Idaho as soon as I can. LOL.

 

[DC2]

This ignorance is more than an annoyance as these are the people that are trying to ban e-cigs. It's obvious the news media/propaganda is working just as they want it to from what this close-minded non-smoker's response was.

Unfortunately, this.....

 

[DC2]

I don't get this ideal that we “vapers” should be pushing our “safer alternative” on anyone when we're not totally sure it's a safe alternative in the long run?

We shouldn't be pushing a safer alternative until we know it's perfectly safe?
Is that what you're saying? Just want to clarify.

Do you vape in front of your kids? Do you blow it in your friends faces? vape with your kids in the car or other enclosed spaces? I'd be curious to know the answer even tho it's none of my flipping business.

Well, I don't have kids, but I blow the vaper in my wife's face quite often.

I often think she could use a little nicotine, although all studies thus far say my efforts are fruitless.
Unfortunately, she really ain't getting much of any.


Too bad, I guess she'll just have to stick with her caffeine.
Some of her coffees even taste better than my vapes do, like the Timothy's Cinnamon Pastry coffee for instance.

 

[icyblack]

We shouldn't be pushing a safer alternative until we know it's perfectly safe?
Is that what you're saying? Just want to clarify.

Not what i'm saying at all - we shouldn't be pushing the safer alternative on the public lung without truly knowing the repercussions. The very word cigarette is associated with bad - maybe it should be named something different. Throw in the ideal that big tobacco is going to run the show - again, association is powerful. Expecting the majority of the public lung to accept any alternatives to smoking is just high hopes. You can rant and rave all you want, vaping has changed my perspective of smoking - and reading the forum has changed my perspective on vaping.

Go back 30 years, people fell for the idea that smoking was safe. We know better now don't we? But only as ex-smokers. Joe public has no interest in self education or being informed anymore, too much effort. The very word cigarette will turn many off - and I really don't blame them.

Said it before, vaping isn't being sold as a means to an end. I'm still a smoker by all rights and reasons, even tho I haven't had an analog in near 4 weeks - but i'm determined to get off the vape so I can classify myself as an ex smoker. It's a billion dollar industry, they all want your money and of course it's your choice to buy or not. I buy my vaping stuff at a local B&M, told them i'm not planning on vaping too long - "we don't want to hear that" was the response. Was in last night, met this 19 year old guy who is pretty much signing over his paychecks to the local B&M, but he has all kinds of nice shiny things and he walked out with a liter of 36 mg juice.

Again, it's all personal choice and not for me to say otherwise, JMO.

 

[DC2]

Not what i'm saying at all - we shouldn't be pushing the safer alternative on the public lung without truly knowing the repercussions.

So if I understand you correctly, you don't feel we have enough information to say what we exhale is safe for bystanders?

 

[icyblack]

So if I understand you correctly, you don't feel we have enough information to say what we exhale is safe for bystanders?

Really?

They don't care what we exhale - they only see the cloud and the word "cigarette".

 

[DC2]

Really?

Really what?

I don't get this ideal that we “vapers” should be pushing our “safer alternative” on anyone when we're not totally sure it's a safe alternative in the long run?

I am trying to understand what you meant by your comment above that I quoted.
But it appears I'm not getting anywhere.

 

[icyblack]

So... What part of safer alternative do you (or I) not understand? Reading some of the postings on the forum has made me question the whole ideal of vaping - yes it works, i'll give it that.

Take Joe Vaper that smoked a pack of analogs a day - but now vapes 36 mg like a freight train? Safe?
Take Joe Public that suffered through the old days of sitting in a smoke filled bar or restaurant - does he want to take any chances?

The very words "safer alternative" still implies that it's not 100% safe, that is what Joe Public understands.

Don't get me wrong, just playing devil's advocate here trying to look at both sides of the equation.

E-cigarettes are being sold as the safer alternative - big tobacco is saying "why quit when you can vape". But hey, big tobacco was successful at making analogs cool and safe, maybe they can accomplish the same with the e-cigarette.

 

[Xcighippy]

No flamesuit needed on my account, you have a lot of great points. I was not offended about the bans on indoor smoking either. In Utah you can get a ticket for smoking in a car with children under 15 now, pretty sure they did pass that law too. Even when I did smoke, I didn't do it around children.

I don't agree with addict shaming about the nicotine and habit though. Nicotine is bad if it keeps people hooked on deadly delivery methods. If it were bad in and of itself, then I'd have to be pretty angry at the doctors pushing patches and gum at me to help me quit. Those delivery methods have their share of issues too btw. I did frequently inadvertently overdose on nicotine with those.

But to me vaping is kind of like those coffee enthusiasts who consume way more quad shot espressos a week than they should... they will spend money on very expensive beans and gadgets... but you don't see anyone shaming them for it. Rather, they are often called connoisseurs. They like their latte's and we aren't screaming at them for enjoying it or making a hobby out of it.

Granted, the caffeine is staying in their own bodies but there HAVE been studies showing that exhaled vapor does not pose a danger to those around us. Hopefully we are being considerate though. At least in my case with my idiosyncratic personal space issues, if someone is voluntarily standing close enough to me to be exposed to my vapor, they are in my rather large personal bubble and need to get out of my face. I don't vape in places where people have to be that near me, mainly because I won't generally be found in places like that. I know I can't be the only one like that. So when people tell me "but your'e still addicted and still this and still that" - they are making an unwarranted generalization based on zero information about me or about anything I actually do.

What I know about vaping being safe is that it is devoid of nearly everything in tobacco smoke that is toxic. In a perfect world we could snap our fingers and no one would smoke but that won't happen. Who wouldn't rather have someone vaping 5 feet away than smoking 5 feet away?

I wish I could hit the "like" button 100 times on this response!

 

[Vermonster13]

ARe all the kids wearing edible undies nowadays? Think of the poor diabetic obese children!

 

[DC2]

So... What part of safer alternative do you (or I) not understand?

I'm just trying to understand, from the quote below...

I don't get this ideal that we “vapers” should be pushing our “safer alternative” on anyone when we're not totally sure it's a safe alternative in the long run?

What you meant by "pushing" and what you meant by "anyone".

At first I thought you meant we should NOT be encouraging smokers to switch to vaping.
Now I think you meant that we shouldn't be doing it around non-smokers.

Or maybe you meant that we should really be encouraging vapers to quit vaping as soon as they can?
Maybe some combination of all of the above?

 

[Bramble]

I wish I could hit the "like" button 100 times on this response!

Thank you

I'm so tired of this moral crusade against vaping which has nothing to do with the interest of public health.

Let's come up with a vaping drinking game, either bingo style or something like this:

Take a shot whenever someone says "teenager" (ETA: two shots if they say "children")
Take a shot whenever someone says "gateway to tobacco"
Take a shot whenever someone says "antifreeze"
Take a shot whenever someone demands proof that vaping is utterly safe
Take a shot whenever someone says "addict"
Take a shot whenever someone talks about "normalizing" smoking
Take a shot whenever someone uses "tobacco" interchangeably with "nicotine"

Within 15 minutes, the rest of the anti-vaping discussion won't bother us much.

 

[Vermonster13]

Lordy don't connect vaping to drinking! They'll crucify us!!!



Hehehe

 

[DC2]

Let's come up with a vaping drinking game, either bingo style or something like this:

Your join date says Jan 2014 but I'm guessing you've been around a lot longer than that?

 

[Bramble]

Your join date says Jan 2014 but I'm guessing you've been around a lot longer than that?

Nope I'm pretty new... I've just done a lot of research and reading When I found out all the impending legislation about vaping here in Utah I pretty much dived right in to add my voice.

 

[icyblack]

My oh my, ignorance really is bliss.

Ignorance is defined as being uninformed or lack of knowledge - now, as a smoker, were we not ignorant when suffering non smokers? By smoking in restaurants, in bars, in our cars,. in our own homes around the famjam, etc? Do you not consider that ignorant?

But all of a sudden, we're now vapers and smarter than the rest? Really? Is that the attitude in here? Is that really what you're selling to joe public and expecting him/her to swallow?

Vaping was sold to me as a safer alternative to smoking - and you're darn right it is. It's better for me (as a smoker) to vape than it is to smoke. But are you seriously expecting the non-smoking world to accept our safer version of smoking? Are you seriously going to sell vaping to a non-smoker as a safer alternative for them as well and expect them to buy it?

Step back for a moment and look at smoking or vaping from a non smokers perspective - that's what i'm trying to do. It's not us against them, keep that attitude up and you'll never win this so called "war". I don't even see a war to be honest.

 

[ScottP]

Vaping was sold to me as a safer alternative to smoking - and you're darn right it is. It's better for me (as a smoker) to vape than it is to smoke. But are you seriously expecting the non-smoking world to accept our safer version of smoking? Are you seriously going to sell vaping to a non-smoker as a safer alternative for them as well and expect them to buy it?

Absolutely. If the vapor going going into the vaper's lungs is "safer" then logic dictates that the vapor coming out is also safer. Unless they/you somehow feel that our lungs are adding 4000 chemicals and 69 carcinogens to the vapor between the inhale and the exhale then it IS safer for everyone.

The question is just how safe though. Here is my own research of the ingredients:

1. Propylene Glycol - PG has been used as the aqueous-based chemical additive in asthma inhalers and nebulizers since the 1950s, with no serious side effects known. PG, because of its water-retaining properties, is the compound of choice for delivering atomized medication. It is also a common diluent for injectable medications, constituting 40 percent of the intravenous form of Phenytoin, an anti-seizure drug. The FDA includes Propylene glycol on its list of substances Generally Recognized as Safe (GRAS), and it meets the requirements of acceptable compounds within Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulations. Considering PG has been widely used for many years without serious side effects, the substance can reasonably said to be of negligible concern.

2. Vegetable Glycerine - VG is one of the most benign organic liquids known to man. It is hype-allergenic, non-carcinigeic, non teratogenic and non-mutagenic. It is metabolized quite easily by a process called beta-oxidation. This process results in the production of CO2 and H2O and is a quite normal, common, and natural catabolic process. VG is of low toxicity when injested, inhaled, or in contact with skin. The most common noted side effect of inhalation of e-liquid containing vegetable glycerin is a dry mouth, sore throat, and increased thirst. These symptoms usually last just a few days to a week as the body gets used to the vegetable glycerin.

3. Flavorings - AFAIK all flavorings used are already approved by the FDA for use in food. You are already inhaling the flavorings every time you SMELL something made with them. When you understand how smell works, you know there can be no other way. When you smell a fresh Apple Pie baking, it works because tiny particles from the pie crust, the apples, and the cinnamon are breaking off, flying through the air, into your nose where special fibers in your nose determine what particles are in the air as it passes through on it's way to your lungs. So there is no way for you to smell anything without the particles getting into your lungs.
Since these flavorings have been used for years, if inhalation was a problem, we would already know about it.

4. Nicotine - Since this is the primary addictive agent in analogs this is WHY most people turn to vaping instead of quitting cold turkey. It is NOT known to be a carcinogen and is found in nearly every stop smoking aid including the gum, patches, and lozenges. While not necessarily safe, it is approved by the FDA for LONG TERM USE in other stop smoking aids.

Bottom line, I have ZERO concerns at this point about vapor being harmful beyond any risks associated with the nicotine itself.

 

[Bramble]

My oh my, ignorance really is bliss.

Ignorance is defined as being uninformed or lack of knowledge - now, as a smoker, were we not ignorant when suffering non smokers? By smoking in restaurants, in bars, in our cars,. in our own homes around the famjam, etc? Do you not consider that ignorant?

But all of a sudden, we're now vapers and smarter than the rest? Really? Is that the attitude in here? Is that really what you're selling to joe public and expecting him/her to swallow?

Vaping was sold to me as a safer alternative to smoking - and you're darn right it is. It's better for me (as a smoker) to vape than it is to smoke. But are you seriously expecting the non-smoking world to accept our safer version of smoking? Are you seriously going to sell vaping to a non-smoker as a safer alternative for them as well and expect them to buy it?

Step back for a moment and look at smoking or vaping from a non smokers perspective - that's what i'm trying to do. It's not us against them, keep that attitude up and you'll never win this so called "war". I don't even see a war to be honest.

I want the non-smoking world to get out of my face and out of my business about things that do not concern them. I want them to stop lying about things and stop trying to control what other consenting adults do. It's beyond rampant in Utah, we can't have gay marriage, we have to scan ID to get into a bar, now they want to raise the smoking age to 21 and ban online sales of vaping supplies. Crimony enough is enough.

I watched Sen. Paul Ray tell the Utah legislature that his daughter's middle school confiscated 200 e-cigs from students in one day. A blatant lie. In what world is that an ok thing to do? It's just as bad as big tobacco telling everyone that smoking wasn't harmful when they knew full well that it was. A lie is a lie, and it's the non-smokers now who are telling the biggest ones.

I got a reply to an email I sent our senate. The senator said he doesn't like nicotine or its effects and especially not on children. This is the mindset we are up against. "I don't like..." "Children might be able to..." I could have easily gone off of what things have a negative effect on children but are not banned (but I didn't). But I'm not a child nor recommending vaping for children. Nor opposing legislation on any age restrictions.

Now, sadly, some people will be relieved if the FDA comes out and says they can't find a hazard in vaping. The same FDA that said Chantix and Zyban aren't hazardous.

Just as an aside, I am wondering why, when so many large and vest interests have everything to gain from showing that vaping is hazardous, it hasn't been done yet. It can't be that hard if it's true. I think people are having a hard time conjuring up actual facts against it and that is why we're now focusing on "normalizing" and "what about the children" arguments.

 

[soba1]

Just keep preaching people will soon hear feel and know.
As for the person you spoke of. Its kinda like a being at a dance, assuming your a male.
If that lady doesn't want to dance with you.
Move on and ask the next.....
Or reverse it if you're a woman at a Sadie Hawkins dance.
You know where the women ask the guys to dance ;-)