Regarding ECF Safety Specification For Metal Tube Mods

[pumasforpets]

Is the SB the one that just goes "Blump" when a cell blows?
Seems I read that somewhere.

Yeah, I've recently read that the switch apparently blows out a bit without major damage. But who's to say a noob would get an actual SB rather than one that "looks" like an SB that "costs less".

Also, beware of mods that go blump in the night

 

[Rocketman]

Well, maybe Roly can comment on making a mod strong enough that can't blow up, or shoot the 9mm connector out, and only use a small vent instead of a bunch of slots.

Ever lit a 'Texas twister' firework?
Little vents on the side

 

[surfsuphere]

It is...........even on a bugatti.....

I know my old Jaguar was a constant source of Electrical trouble due to its Factory wiring...

but I still loved that sexy XJ6 all the same

 

[surfsuphere]

What I would like is having the ECF body-at-large require every vendor here to produce to ECF admins their purchase orders showing legit battery and battery charger buys (with appropriate NDA agreements in place protecting vendors business data).

Also requiring every Vendor who sells some type of Kit to LEGALLY list the name of the BrandX battery and.or charger included in said Kit. So if a US vendor is selling a Kit from China, it's the vendors legal responsibility to find out what the hell battery and charger they are giving us).

I once saw a Laptop burst into flames on a guy's lap in a airport from a faulty laptop battery (remember those "exploding laptops" from a few years ago). lol, maybe I remember cause Long SNE puts worked well... (Sony made the batteries and it cost them close to $1b USD to recall and replace them across the Laptop world of HP Dell Lenovo etc).

My understanding of US Law is that if Vendor X claims he or she is selling a AW battery, or a Pila charger they are legally bound to have done the proper Due Diligence to make certain the item they are buying is not counterfeit. I wonder how many really do...

Might this raise the prices a $1? sure, and that's just fine.

The older I get, the less I trust and it is not personal.

~~

I also second the tone of some prior comments re Legal.

I am not now, nor ever have been a lawyer (or barrister for you Brits) but I lived with two of them and learned enough to second the motion of being very careful re Libel Laws, and especially International Libel laws which can be hair-pulling.

I have no clue what country the business portion of this ECF website was formed in. I'm sure you are very aware as this website generates revenue it would get treated very differently than a non-revenue producing hobby website.

~~

Juice

Like many here, I am fully against the Nanny State.
With that said, I would love to see the USA Juice companies get inspected by the US FDA. Merely to regulate the SAFETY of where the Nic is coming from and that the Lab/Mixing area and methods are SAFE.

There has always been a problem when money/profit mixes in with safety.
Always.
I vote for safety but with sanity.

 

[buGG]

EMSS has gone dynamic...again.

 

[rolygate]

Well, maybe Roly can comment on making a mod strong enough that can't blow up, or shoot the 9mm connector out, and only use a small vent instead of a bunch of slots.

Ever lit a 'Texas Twister' firework?
Little vents on the side

It might be possible to build a mod that cannot explode, as we are talking about a fast gas generator that is probably only equal to or less powerful than a weedkiller and sugar pipebomb (less gas, produced more slowly). The difference between weedkiller (sodium chlorate) and black powder vs RDX or semtex is the volume and speed of the gas generation. So with a low-enough power of explosive you could build a container to hold it in.

The thing is, I wouldn't want to be holding it

And the beta testing (one year out on the market as is normal these days) would be fun...

Re. the 'twister': yeah it did come into the equation. But the model the EMSS is based on preventing is the 'Atlas 5 Launcher' mod that existed in the early days: a mod with a single vent at the bottom (the tube hole where it blew the endcap off) vented with such force (the battery jammed in due to swelling no doubt) that it shot off like a rocket, setting fire to the room it was being use in, then went through a door and set fire to the room next door. There were some great cartoons of it at the time.

So we figured that if there were a bunch of large vents, and they were equally distributed, the device should at least stay in the same room, as the forces would be reduced, and about equalised.

It would be a lot easier to contain the fire than with an Atlas 5

 

[rolygate]

I also second the tone of some prior comments re Legal.

I am not now, nor ever have been a lawyer (or barrister for you Brits) but I lived with two of them and learned enough to second the motion of being very careful re Libel Laws, and especially International Libel laws which can be hair-pulling.

I have no clue what country the business portion of this ECF website was formed in. I'm sure you are very aware as this website generates revenue it would get treated very differently than a non-revenue producing hobby website.

Yes, we have to do everything with this in mind. In fact it is part of the reason why we will promote the EMSS: as publishers of resources connected with mods, we need to warn buyers and reduce our liability.

The main reason we are doing it is that this is an appalling and disgusting situation that the trade has not stopped occurring, and which will drastically affect the legal situation of e-cigarettes. Somebody has to do something, and because nobody else is, we have stepped in (as per usual).


Fact: some metal tube mods have exploded in the user's face causing serious injury.

Fact: this issue is widely known. It is not a myth or impossible or of no real concern.

Fact: if you know that a product is dangerous, or may be dangerous under some circumstances, then you cannot sell it without liability. There is no way to disclaim liability for the sale of known dangerous products.

Fact: we may possibly be considered to have some liability if we do not warn buyers of the issue. It is our main job to act as as an information resource, so not providing information about this could be seen as inviting liability.

Fact: we are within our rights to suggest a way of designing and manufacturing mods that will make them safer. In fact it is our duty to do so, especially if no one else is performing that function, and there is no trade association that is taking action in this area, and there is apparently no official consumer protection agency that is taking action in this area.

Fact: if we state that such measures are in our opinion an improvement then we incur no fault.


I do suggest you ask a lawyer about the facts I have presented, and they will confirm to you that disclosure of danger and recommendations to exercise due diligence not only incur no fault on our part, but are in fact obligatory to avoid any culpability in our position.

 

[tj99959]

So we figured that if there were a bunch of large vents

And just what will prevent a hairpin or other such item from slipping through those large vents and shorting out the battery?
I do know that my wife's purse would not be a safe place to have that kind of mod. The positive on/off switch would not prevent the short. Even if I put my mod in a Lipo bag, somehow her keys or some such item would end up in the bag with it.

 

[pumasforpets]

EMSS has gone dynamic...again.

Roly!...double preposition in the first paragraph (use of in June) and I think June 1012 may have already passed

I've worked quite extensively with government agencies and have a firm grip of what we call "weasel words"...I'm liking the new language compared to what it was before. I also like the update history and think that this should continue to be logged.

 

[rolygate]

And just what will prevent a hairpin or other such item from slipping through those large vents and shorting out the battery?
I do know that my wife's purse would not be a safe place to have that kind of mod. The positive on/off switch would not prevent the short. Even if I put my mod in a Lipo bag, somehow her keys or some such item would end up in the bag with it.

Good point - but I would suggest that using a slip case for a mod is preferable to having it blow up in your face.

Can you suggest a design for gas vents distributed along the length of the body*, that could not be compromised by insertion of small metallic objects?

*Gas vents in one place are not satisfactory because we know that batteries can swell up and block the tube during a fail event (the Atlas 5 Rocket Launcher incident/s). If the vents are not distributed then pressure could rise at one point. There is a possible fail scenario where pressure rises at the top of the tube, at the atomizer end. This may well be what happened in the two recent incidents where the atomizer blew out first and injured the users. This tells us that gas vents are needed at the top and bottom of the tube. A central vent also appears desirable.

 

[rolygate]

Roly!...double preposition in the first paragraph (use of in June) and I think June 1012 may have already passed

Ah yes, many thanks. It's so very very very long since I did Eng. Lang.

I've worked quite extensively with government agencies and have a firm grip of what we call "weasel words"...I'm liking the new language compared to what it was before. I also like the update history and think that this should continue to be logged.

The day ECF gets accused of weasel words would be a disaster. Our intention is make advice and motives crystal clear. We are having to deal with the weasel words and even more weasely marketing tactics employed by vendors who seem to want to deny the problem exists.

I do hope you liked the hyperbole and other sins here

 

[Semiretired]

What you are describing is a spiral pattern on the mod. And as far as preventing insertion of small metallic objects you would need a skin on the mod. It would initially block the venting, but it would not take much pressure buildup to break the skin.

How about this. A hole or maybe even three in the base of the mod with spiral venting covered by a skin. The initial gas venting would come out of the bottom and as pressure built up it would rip through the skin. Might give a split second delay and allow the person enough time to drop it before a hand gets burned...

 

[pumasforpets]

Any information on what part of the battery most commonly vents? I would assume the top near the positive connection, but there could be scenarios where the batt case splits and vents out the side.

Ah yes, many thanks. It's so very very very long since I did Eng. Lang.


The day ECF gets accused of weasel words would be a disaster. Our intention is make advice and motives crystal clear. We are having to deal with the weasel words and even more weasely marketing tactics employed by vendors who seem to want to deny the problem exists.

I do hope you liked the hyperbole and other sins here

Also, "about in" is still a double preposition lol. Here's my edit if you like:

This is an advance notice of the proposed safety features for metal tube mods. ECF intends to begin widely notifying members about EMSS in June 2012.

I would also change "need" to "requirement" in the 3rd paragraph.

I seriously did this for a living for a number of years, so I would have no problem with going through and reviewing the language if you would like. Not to be more weasely (and I was not making any accusation there if that's how it seemed), but rather for clarity and grammatical consistency.

 

[cbrociuos]

Good point - but I would suggest that using a slip case for a mod is preferable to having it blow up in your face.

Can you suggest a design for gas vents distributed along the length of the body*, that could not be compromised by insertion of small metallic objects?

*Gas vents in one place are not satisfactory because we know that batteries can swell up and block the tube during a fail event (the Atlas 5 Rocket Launcher incident/s). If the vents are not distributed then pressure could rise at one point. There is a possible fail scenario where pressure rises at the top of the tube, at the atomizer end. This may well be what happened in the two recent incidents where the atomizer blew out first and injured the users. This tells us that gas vents are needed at the top and bottom of the tube. A central vent also appears desirable.

the "playing card" inner sleeve would help keep hair pins out of the mod. any safety measure is going to be a trade off for another issue to some extent. you also want to make sure all these slots and holes dont weaken the tube to the point of making it a frag. grenade.

 

[rolygate]

Any information on what part of the battery most commonly vents? I would assume the top near the positive connection, but there could be scenarios where the batt case splits and vents out the side.

The answer to that is: everywhere possible, so far. There have been rocket vents where the endcap blew off and the gas vented so strongly the device flew around the house, setting fire to several rooms. Top-end explosions where the atty fired off into the user's face. Explosive events where it went bang and a pile of shrapnel resulted. All kinds of everything. There have been pressure build-ups at both ends, and where the end affected blew off; and events where it was hard to tell what happened from the remaining burnt and damaged materials.

Also, "about in" is still a double preposition lol. Here's my edit if you like: ........

OK OK. Jeez any more of this and I'll have to get my reference books out of storage...

 

[rolygate]

What you are describing is a spiral pattern on the mod.

There is no intention in EMSS to describe or advocate for a spiral slot design, this would surely weaken the casing extensively. Until we have a drawing, all that can be done is describe the slots as clearly as possible: three slots milled along the length of the tube body. No doubt this could be interpreted in a multitude of ways, but the most basic interpretation is the one intended: several slots, along the body of the tube.

 

[buGG]

The answer to that is: everywhere possible, so far. There have been rocket vents where the endcap blew off and the gas vented so strongly the device flew around the house, setting fire to several rooms. Top-end explosions where the atty fired off into the user's face. Explosive events where it went bang and a pile of shrapnel resulted. All kinds of everything. There have been pressure build-ups at both ends, and where the end affected blew off; and events where it was hard to tell what happened from the remaining burnt and damaged materials.

Is this in response to the part of the battery, or the part of the mod?

 

[pumasforpets]

Alright, we finally have a case of exactly what I was concerned about when I started this thread in the new users forum. Again, apologies for cross linking, but I really do think this is important.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...cf-new-safety-specifications-mods-please.html

"On the basis of this I cancelled my order for a Provari version 2 (with an extension cap for a longer battery) before I saw this update....."


This is not a good thing for ECF in my opinion. ECF is a business as it stands and what is happening here is a case of a business making guidelines for an industry that has now been demonstrated to cause another business to lose revenue. That could become a legal nightmare. If ECF were a not for profit organization and was able to provide undeniable verification of expertise, it would be one thing. Right now, I'm increasingly concerned that ECF will be taken to court over this specification. I think sailorman is right on the money with his comments in that thread.

It's tough...I'm well aware of this. This whole thing is going to take a huge amount more work and brain power to get right. I appreciate the effort greatly Roly and I like the way things have progressed since this discussion began. I also love that we're able to sit here and debate things with you and that you actually listen to what has been said. Keep it up and hopefully there will come a point where every party is as happy as they can be. But I would certainly stress or put a disclaimer in big bold print that this is a work in progress and is not yet in effect. As I said, a great deal of the ECF community consists of people who will take your words as gospel so caution needs to be exercised in what you put out there and how it's stated.

 

[pumasforpets]

The answer to that is: everywhere possible, so far. There have been rocket vents where the endcap blew off and the gas vented so strongly the device flew around the house, setting fire to several rooms. Top-end explosions where the atty fired off into the user's face. Explosive events where it went bang and a pile of shrapnel resulted. All kinds of everything. There have been pressure build-ups at both ends, and where the end affected blew off; and events where it was hard to tell what happened from the remaining burnt and damaged materials.



OK OK. Jeez any more of this and I'll have to get my reference books out of storage...

HAHA! Sorry...I'm a bit .... about language in official documents


OK, so the reason I'm hounding you so much about this is I'm sitting here in solidworks designing a mod which I'll eventually put up for sale. Just as I was about finished, the EMSS went up (and The kick was released at the same time) and I've been having nightmares about my design

The EMSS is simply not compatible with my device in any sort of cost effective manner. The cost increase would be well beyond that of the majority of tube mod manufacturers because my mod does not use the same battery tube construction as they do. It uses an outer anodized aluminum body with 2x .5in W x ~2in H machined slots and an inner carbon fiber sleeve. It is a hybrid device with no connector and the internals between the battery and mouth piece are pretty much sealed so there is almost no chance of a piece being ejected into the user's face.

As of right now, I plan to offer the device in 2 configurations: Standard and EMSS. The EMSS version would include a slotted or perforated CF tube (which is going to be a major undertaking), an 18500/490 IMR and an optional Kick (since some already have one).

I have also though about ignoring the side slots portion of the spec and developing something a little different which is why I asked about where the batteries fail. Failure tends to happen at the weakest point which should be the top and bottom if the battery expands to seal off the tube. I had thought about 2 horizontal slots at the top of the battery (5/32 x .5in) and 2 banana shaped slots in the bottom battery cap of similar dimension. Even if the battery were to split, carbon fiber doesn't have the same ballistic properties as solid aluminum, is non-conductive and non-flammable.

This is also one of the many reasons I plan to do failure testing as there is nothing on the market with which to compare.

 

[pumasforpets]

A quick example of what I mean. This piece is located at the top of the battery.