Regarding ECF Safety Specification For Metal Tube Mods
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From what i've read so far, it is still safer than a stacked batteries mods. The main concern is mods with stacked batteries without proper venthole/s. Single batteries mods are considered safer. Please correct me if I'm wrong.Retriever:5561633 said:Okay, I am confused (not hard for me to get that way). So a Provari, with all of it's safety features is still considered unsafe per the new guidelines?
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It already has!
The Florida incident was used on the Senate floor for final passage of Utah HB-245 (inclusion of e-cigs in clean air act)
I know this is focused on stacked batteries, however people are now using single cells with > 10 Wh of stored energy.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/provape/275857-my-provari-went-up-smoke.html
The above isn't clear whether it was one of the really large 18650, vs. only a 1600 mAh. Nobody injured, no fire, but it sounds like things were headed in a bad direction and the user was aware enough to pitch the battery away; it should probably be seen as a warning.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/provape/275857-my-provari-went-up-smoke.html
The above isn't clear whether it was one of the really large 18650, vs. only a 1600 mAh. Nobody injured, no fire, but it sounds like things were headed in a bad direction and the user was aware enough to pitch the battery away; it should probably be seen as a warning.
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Mark,
That brings up a good point about reported failures.
The community loses a valuable data point when a mod acts up, the cell gets hot, and the user is able to toss the cell instead of hanging in there, in the name of science, just to see if the mod would blow up in his face,
or, when a cell goes thermal, whether or not the mod explodes, and a reasonable failure analysis is not performed, you can't come to a reliable conclusion as to the real cause,
or, when a failure, or near miss, is reported in a large forum or in the media, is there an ulterior motive hidden in the report?
When competition and advertising adjusts to the new ECF specs/recommendations, what new stories will we hear about. How credible will the reports, and commentary from expert posters be? Will reports of competitor's failures be an advertising point?
That brings up a good point about reported failures.
The community loses a valuable data point when a mod acts up, the cell gets hot, and the user is able to toss the cell instead of hanging in there, in the name of science, just to see if the mod would blow up in his face,
or, when a cell goes thermal, whether or not the mod explodes, and a reasonable failure analysis is not performed, you can't come to a reliable conclusion as to the real cause,
or, when a failure, or near miss, is reported in a large forum or in the media, is there an ulterior motive hidden in the report?
When competition and advertising adjusts to the new ECF specs/recommendations, what new stories will we hear about. How credible will the reports, and commentary from expert posters be? Will reports of competitor's failures be an advertising point?
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Okay, I am confused (not hard for me to get that way
If you are talking about your Provape, then since you will not be inserting two batteries in it, it can be considered 'safe' however that word is defined. There are also other reasons why the Provape may not be covered by EMSS but this is something to be examined in the months ahead. For example, as far as we are aware, no fully-electronic mod has exploded.
However the word 'safe' cannot really be applied to mods, as it is stretching the definition of the word. Things can go wrong, fires can start. If you see the Provari incident linked above, you will note that the user discovered he had a red-hot battery. Before the incident you might well have had people saying, "But this can't happen in a Provari because its electronic controls prevent a battery going into thermal runaway".
Apparently not.
In fact it looks as if the user was seconds away from some sort of incident. If a mod can get 'red hot' and the battery is nearly on fire, with clouds of smoke, it is stretching it a bit to say that the product cannot experience any significant failures.
I would repeat, yet again, that battery counterfeiting has got to the stage where nobody knows what batts they have, and mods need to be able to handle that.
I really don't know, one way or the other.
I would absolutely put the Provari high up in terms of being an engineered PV, but since there's been a section of discussion about how this spec should/would only apply to double stacked (or potentially double stacked) PVs, it begs the question on whether single, large, batteries are magically safe (I know they aren't, though nominally, if not abused, they should have better max current capability). The total energy content of a 3000 mAh is twice that of the pair of 16340s I use.
People often seek bigger, "better" batteries, which means more oomph if something goes awry.
Provari undoubtedly has good design features, and with an aware user a potential problem was averted, but it's probably better to include the big single battery devices earlier rather than wait until when (not if) one of them has a bad whoops.
(The battery counterfeiting thing just reeks, though it really could be just a "normal" device failure, of a real IMR. Production variability, maybe the battery got dropped once or twice in the supply chain,... It sounds like the battery was acquired right from a trusted ECF Supplier, not someone trying to bottom fish.
I would absolutely put the Provari high up in terms of being an engineered PV, but since there's been a section of discussion about how this spec should/would only apply to double stacked (or potentially double stacked) PVs, it begs the question on whether single, large, batteries are magically safe (I know they aren't, though nominally, if not abused, they should have better max current capability). The total energy content of a 3000 mAh is twice that of the pair of 16340s I use.
People often seek bigger, "better" batteries, which means more oomph if something goes awry.
Provari undoubtedly has good design features, and with an aware user a potential problem was averted, but it's probably better to include the big single battery devices earlier rather than wait until when (not if) one of them has a bad whoops.
(The battery counterfeiting thing just reeks, though it really could be just a "normal" device failure, of a real IMR. Production variability, maybe the battery got dropped once or twice in the supply chain,... It sounds like the battery was acquired right from a trusted ECF Supplier, not someone trying to bottom fish.
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How about a 'hybrid' metal tube mod.
Square tube.
Hard for a cell to swell enough not to 'pass gas'.
Cross sectional area gives some expansion room for hot gas.
Ballistically different than a round tube.
Atlas 5 is round, Volvo is square. Which would be a safer ride
Square tube.
Hard for a cell to swell enough not to 'pass gas'.
Cross sectional area gives some expansion room for hot gas.
Ballistically different than a round tube.
Atlas 5 is round, Volvo is square. Which would be a safer ride
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If something it`s wrong, can explode a tube with one batt`s. Like i said before I`ve seen on TV a men with exploded ego batt.
For stucked batt`s probably to make short circuit with wall of tube it`s higher in point when + from bottom batt, contact - from top batt, without proper isolation against tube wall.
In one cycle of charge/discharge can`t be a higher difference in voltage between batt`s (it`s about maximum 0.1V).Anyway protected batt`s in combination with a protected tube will be safer for use.
And a li-ion/lipo cell explode at higher discharge or short circuit, result heating batt and after explode.
For stucked batt`s probably to make short circuit with wall of tube it`s higher in point when + from bottom batt, contact - from top batt, without proper isolation against tube wall.
In one cycle of charge/discharge can`t be a higher difference in voltage between batt`s (it`s about maximum 0.1V).Anyway protected batt`s in combination with a protected tube will be safer for use.
And a li-ion/lipo cell explode at higher discharge or short circuit, result heating batt and after explode.
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I have to say this thread has been massively informative, as well as delightfully entertaining. Thanks for such great information, and some quality debate about a serious issuse that has profound effects on an industry we all hold near and dear.
carry on
carry on
Yep it`s good information gathered here, but a noob it`s a noob after all , he make a wrong tube or box someday and Bumm!!! .
Many don`t have intention to read this, ignore everything and again Bumm!!!..
, he make a wrong tube or box someday and Bumm!!! .Many don`t have intention to read this, ignore everything and again Bumm!!!.
.
Is there a way that vendors can verify that they are AW resellers or authorized resellers of other batteries deemed acceptable by ECF? I remember a vendor selling an "IMR" 10440, that was supposed to be an unlabeled ****fire. I've always doubted whether that cell was LiMn chemistry or just an unprotected LiCo. At the time, outside of other vendors who carried a similar "IMR" battery, the only place I could find it online was through the very same company that can be found on Alibaba (and elsewhere) selling counterfeit AW batteries of every variety, "IMR" batteries in every size you'd want, Trustfire "protected" 26650 and 18650 batteries, Xtar chargers, and a whole host of other products that are sold by various go to vendors on ECF and elsewhere. Even outside of those looking for a deal or determined to find a cheaper, longer lasting alternative to the "recommended" batteries and chargers, there are those who are actually looking for the real thing, fully expecting the real thing and probably getting fakes with unknown degrees of potential harm.
I keep seeing the words "when it fails". How many injuries have been caused by the failure of the mod?
I have yet to see an example of an explosion caused by the failure of a mod. Charger, yes. Battery, yes.
But you cannot say that it is a failure of a mod to prevent an incident caused by misuse or abuse.
The guys who build the plane don't say it's your fault when a system fails and the plane crashes.
No engineer is going to accept responsibility when you try to run a plane on diesel. They're under no obligation to design a system to prevent your diesel filled plane from crashing.
If they failed to make it clear that the plane does not run on diesel fuel, maybe they'd bear some responsibility.
Likewise, if a mod mfg. fails to warn against the use of inappropriate batteries, he'd bear some responsibility.
What the ECF specs are doing is analogous to insisting that a plane be capable of safely landing when the pilot switches over to a tank full of diesel fuel in mid-flight, or when he tries to fly while drunk or overloads his plane or takes off in a hurricane.
I suggest these specs be scrapped if it is your intention to "grade" a mod or PV for safety based on their criteria.
Instead, a mod should be deemed safe or unsafe based on its use AS INSTRUCTED. And those instructions should be provided. Their responsibility ends there.
How many mods are shipped with no instructions or information whatsoever? My Lavatube came with no instructions at all. Any mod supplied without basic safety information and recommendations is far less safe than a mod that merely employs some alternative to ECF's prescribed slotting pattern.
Safety starts with information. Instead of insisting that mfgs. follow its arbitrary design specs, ECF would be far better off to design a template for a decent and informative manual, incorporating safety guideline, to be shipped with mods. If a device can explode because it lacked any information about how to prevent it from exploding, then it can be considered unsafe, just like an airplane is unsafe if there is no published information on how to prevent it from crashing.
Any mod that supplies valid and comprehensive information on its safe use, and is safe WHEN USED AS DIRECTED, is as safe as can reasonably be expected in a free country.
I tend to agree in principle.
I bought my wife a new crock pot, would you believe 12 pages of instructions (3 pages of just warnings) in each of 4 different languages. The e-cig industry in general is way behind the accepted norm in this regard.
However the battery is still the source of the problem, and mod manufactures do have the responsibility of making their products as safe as possible in the event that batteries do what batteries can do.
One thing I would like to see is a fuse/ckt breaker incorperated into the connector.
Interesting that mods are the only device known to man that are expected to meet such criteria.
You seem to be operating on a principle that is non-existent on this planet.
In essence, you are arguing that:
Only a badly designed car can explode...
A badly designed airplane...
A badly designed shotgun...
A badly designed gas stove...
A badly designed motor boat...
A badly designed anything that uses any type of stored energy...
Because even the best designs of every single one of these things has exploded at one time or another, nearly always through user misuse, abuse or lack of maintenance. I am unaware of anything else expected to be fail-safe in the way you are expecting mods to be. You might as well argue that only a badly designed knife is capable of cutting off your finger.
When the space shuttle blew up, it wasn't condemned as being a bad design. It was the failure of one small o-ring. Even if the design was responsible for that part's failure, no one could seriously argue that the shuttle should have been designed to prevent an explosion in the event of that part's failure.
The worst part is that, as an engineer, you seem stuck on a totally bogus principle, one that you and only you adheres to, namely that only a badly designed device or machine is capable of exploding or causing serious injury when misused, abused or not maintained. Nothing in the real world supports this. Nothing else is designed or engineered this way.
Just how reliable is the failure data being input into this set of design improvements?
How many failures involve a lot of "I don't know" or "I didn't do nothing wrong",
It just went BOOM.
If a user has any idea what the actual cause of a failure was, or it turned out to be totally the users fault, would anyone be open about it? What would be the chance of getting a new set of batteries or a new mod if you admitted you did something wrong.
I wonder what his ECF friends would call hm?
A real failure needs to be 'bagged and tagged' and sent to ?
ani't no place to send a failed mod.
How many failures involve a lot of "I don't know" or "I didn't do nothing wrong",
It just went BOOM.
If a user has any idea what the actual cause of a failure was, or it turned out to be totally the users fault, would anyone be open about it? What would be the chance of getting a new set of batteries or a new mod if you admitted you did something wrong.
I wonder what his ECF friends would call hm?
A real failure needs to be 'bagged and tagged' and sent to ?
ani't no place to send a failed mod.
I would really like more details of what mods failed, and the improvements the maker was implementing, if any. We have big battery mods failing, stacked batteries failing, medium sized batteries failing. What next? It has totally ruined my experience where mods are concerned. I will stick with my KR808's - until one of them blinds me.
Byt the way - Thank you Rolygate and SteelJan for your efforts in this important area. We need this info!
No we don't. We have stacked and/or unprotected an/or counterfeit batteries failing. We have chargers failing. We don't have big battery mods failing. We don't have single medium or big sized protected, IMR and genuine batteries failing.
We have tens, if not hundreds of thousands of single and dual battery pipe mods out there and a miniscule incident rate that's likely 100% due to user misuse and/or defective/counterfeit battery stacking.
What we do have is a whole lot of hysteria and misinformation. We have a lot of presumption and second-guessing. We have a lot of fear mongering, whether intentional or not.
Want to be safe?
1. Don't try to buy the cheapest battery you can find from some vendor of dubious integrity, and avoid brands that are known to be widely counterfeited unless you can verify their authenticity.
2. Don't stack batteries. If you must, be sure the mod is vented, designed for it and the batts are protected and genuine.
3. Use proper charging procedures and a decent quality charger. Replace the cheapo cord on your Chinese charger with one from a decent electric shaver or other appliance with compatible plugs. Cheap cords fail far more often than the chargers themselves.
4. Buy a multimeter and monitor battery voltage, both before and after charging.
If you do those things, you are probably more likely to injure yourself with your electric toothbrush or curling iron.
but i will take all the "dangerous" ones.
can you guys believe not one person has taken me up on my offer?!!
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