Regarding ECF Safety Specification For Metal Tube Mods

[pumasforpets]

Roly, perhaps it would be in the best interest of all to come up with a test where a builder can prove that his device can withstand the forces found in a battery failure without having to go through the process of making an actual battery fail.

Compressed air for venting tests at a specified pressure and nozzle size. Variable DC power supplies to test protection circuits and breakers. The point being to get as close to a catastrophic failure event under controlled conditions.

 

[tj99959]

Roly, all that is speculation without any documented facts, and science simply doesn't work that way.
IMHO the industry needs to be using an independent testing lab, and that is the responsibility of the manufactures not the end users or a social network. However we as a social network can and should be forcing the industry to use one.
Everything from my can opener to my coffee pot has a UL stamp on it, why should we expect anything less with our PV's.

 

[rolygate]

Roly, all that is speculation without any documented facts, and science simply doesn't work that way.

Agreed. It is entirely speculative. However someone needs to give pointers as to how an energetic twin battery failure can occur, and it seems reasonable to me that a chain fail is responsible - otherwise why are these events not more common?

I had to point out that testing the safest batteries, in a semi-normal usage profile, is not really going to get anywhere.

IMHO the industry needs to be using an independent testing lab, and that is the responsibility of the manufactures not the end users or a social network. However we as a social network can and should be forcing the industry to use one.

I agree 100%.

What we are doing is already moving manufacturers to initiate testing - they are talking about it right now in the vendors' area here.

You are absolutely right.

 

[rolygate]

Roly, perhaps it would be in the best interest of all to come up with a test where a builder can prove that his device can withstand the forces found in a battery failure without having to go through the process of making an actual battery fail.

Compressed air for venting tests at a specified pressure and nozzle size. Variable DC power supplies to test protection circuits and breakers. The point being to get as close to a catastrophic failure event under controlled conditions.

Yes, this would be a step forward because waiting for batteries to injure someone is not the best way.

They could start by blocking the centre of the tube with a plug, to replicate swelling batteries blocking the tube. Ensure the plug cannot shift.

Then, rapidly insert 200psi gas pressure at the top of the tube. Dump it, then rapidly insert 200psi at the bottom. Then reverse.

If it passes those tests then things are looking good. I'm told that running tests like this kills the pressure gauge, but testing is not free otherwise everyone would do it.

 

[six]

There are two sure-fire (no pun intended) ways to make a lithium ion battery explode. Heat and over-charge.

For those who would like to get an idea of how much energy is expended when a li-on battery has a catastrophic failure, just search around youtube a bit. I don't suggest attempting any of the things you will see. A couple of videos that make it obvious how forceful a li-on batt explosion is might be real eye-openers. Searching "li-on explodes" or "li-on explosion" will lead you to a couple - There's one where a fellow tosses a cell phone battery in to a pot of flaming cooking oil, and another where someone purposefully overcharges a dell laptop battery. There is one other where a guy tosses a couple of 14500s in to a camp fire...

I'm *not* equating using a PV to tossing batteries into flaming oil. But: A battery explosion is a battery explosion no matter how it exploded. It's good to have an understanding of how much energy really exists in even the smallest batteries.

 

[vapspaz]

It seems very likely that counterfeit batteries are at the core of the problem.

I understand your thought process which has led you down this road of requesting manufactures to change the design of there metal tube mods. But IMHO this statement you made above has some how gotten lost in your efforts to help the e-cig industry. Tube mods are not the problem, faulty batteries are. RCA is a term widely used in the engineering field which stands for Root Cause Analysis. When there is a failure one must research into the fundamental cause of the failure and then take corrective actions to prevent the failure from occurring again. Clearly we all know what the fundamental cause of these failures are and this is what needs to be corrected.

IDK.. Just a thought, but wouldn't it be much faster and less costly to simply advise all ECF registered suppliers that sell batteries that you will be covertly purchasing and analyzing all batteries immediately and continuously and if any are found to be counterfeit then that supplier will be banned from ECF? And perhaps a list of approved battery suppliers posted where everyone can find it easily.

IMHO you are barking up the wrong tree. Yes, our devices should be safe but an empty tube mod has never hurt anyone.

You want to make a large positive impact to the safety of the e-cig industry? Go after the counterfeiters and the people that knowingly support them.

BTW... I'm not affiliated with any mod manufactures. I'm simply a consumer that wanted to purchase one recently but it had been hacked so badly in order to meet ECF "guidelines" that I had to pass and find a used one out there.

 

[six]

IDK.. Just a thought, but wouldn't it be much faster and less costly to simply advise all ECF registered suppliers that sell batteries that you will be covertly purchasing and analyzing all batteries immediately and continuously and if any are found to be counterfeit then that supplier will be banned from ECF? And perhaps a list of approved battery suppliers posted where everyone can find it easily.
.

The vast majority of rechargeable batteries come from China. Dealing with distributors and manufacturer representatives, you can get grade A genuine items one day and counterfeit knock-offs the next. It isn't vendors going out looking for knock-offs to sell or somehow underhandedly conspiring to sell knock-offs. It is the vast amount of counterfeiting and therefore the vast amount of counterfeit items in the normal supply chain coming from the Asian markets.

 

[vapspaz]

I see what you mean, but I would think there has got to be a way to back track through the supplier chain and stop this from happening. Someone somewhere knows how these knock off's are getting into the system.

 

[rolygate]

@Vapspaz
RCA has led me here. There is no way to fix the battery issue. We have kicked this around for two years, trying to find a way that could stop faulty batteries causing mod explosions. In the end, this hasn't been possible: there is no way to stop faulty batteries being inserted into sealed metal tubes.

You could look at what would have to be done in order to do this, to get some idea of the scale of the problem. But in the end it has to be recognised that a battery cannot explode: all it does is produce a lot of gas, fast, when it fails in some circumstances. Only a mod can explode. And only a sealed metal tube explodes, according to the stats.

It would be a good service to the community if there were some kind of test that could be invented to tell if a battery is a counterfeit, but this looks difficult. There is no way I would know if my two green Tenergy Li-Fe batteries are genuine or not. The odds are, right now, that they are counterfeit junk Li-ion batts. Maybe only a chemist who cuts the batteries up could tell different.

[Edited. What was originally here came across too 'snarky' and that is not how I mean it to be.]
We can't change what China does, and we can't change that counterfeits get into the supply chain. It is likely that vendors themselves don't know what batteries they have, and though they buy them in good faith, a proportion will be fakes. However, we can certainly tell our members that it may not be advisable to buy pipebombs and suck on them - and that's what we will be doing. Several people have gone to ER now and it has to stop before this is used as an excuse to ban e-cigs. I'm told that process has started.

Also, there is almost certainly going to be a very large lawsuit over one of the recent blowups, and if this situation continues, there will be more. ECF does not want to be associated with that situation in any way and will do what it must to fix it. We can either remove some of the mod makers and vendors, or politely suggest they fix the problem. In the end, some of those who just won't listen to reason may indeed have to be removed, but we are not there yet. We might only be a couple of months away from it, though.

For personal reasons, being closely associated with it, I do not know which would be worse: e-cigs being banned somewhere or in many places; ECF being sued; ECF shutting down; e-cig blowups putting several people in hospital with serious injuries; or someone in my family being one of the injured parties.

What I do know is that warning people about this for exactly two years now at March 2012 hasn't achieved much; and that what we have finally had to do, with no other option out there, will most likely go a long way to fixing all those problems listed just above. One way or another it will start something happening. What that may be is not clear right now - but it will finally get something done about it.

 

[cbrociuos]

the chinese counterfit everything. i know of factories in china that produce products for companies in europe. when they get the order complete they keep running and sell the same product at a discount. usually made with much cheaper raw materials. the first step in ending all of this is for companies to stop sourcing cheap chinese labor. when you outsource your product and they steal your design you kind of deserve it! the second step is for consumers to understand cheaper isnt always better. quality costs money, and you usually get what you pay for.

 

[six]

But in the end it has to be recognised that a battery cannot explode: all it does is produce a lot of gas, fast, when it fails in some circumstances.

The definition of explosion is producing a lot of gas real fast. I'm not sure if you have mistyped or if you are misinformed. Batteries can and do explode while no where near an e-cig or in any sort of a tube. There are several circumstances that can lead to such an event. Overcharge - overdischarge - overheat - dead short. Any of those can equal kaboom with no tube involved.

 

[dirquist]

The definition of explosion is producing a lot of gas real fast. I'm not sure if you have mistyped or if you are misinformed. Batteries can and do explode while no where near an e-cig or in any sort of a tube. There are several circumstances that can lead to such an event. Overcharge - overdischarge - overheat - dead short. Any of those can equal kaboom with no tube involved.

Semantics. The fact is if you put that discharge or explosion as you want to call it into a metal tube it will give you a real BOOM. Not a bottlerocket like I see in that video.

 

[six]

Semantics. The fact is if you put that discharge or explosion as you want to call it into a metal tube it will give you a real BOOM. Not a bottlerocket like I see in that video.

Well, there are hundreds of videos and most with much more forceful semantics.

Batteries explode all the time. Forceful explosions that leave plenty of damage do occur with no tube anywhere nearby. I repair at least half a dozen moxbox's every spring when the lightening storms start creating surges in my communication arrays. The mox carries an 18650 and when they pop from a surge, they will rip apart a 8"X8"x3" tin enclosure and blow the door right off the same size weatherproof ABS enclosure. Saying it's semantics is beyond bizarre. An explosion is an explosion. Producing a lot of gas real fast is an explosion in or outside of a tube. Batteries explode. li-on explosions are why there are restrictions shipping batteries on airplanes --- etc etc etc. Claiming a battery can only vent but not explode is a falsehood. I reject it as patently false and so should you.

 

[berger]

Semantics. The fact is if you put that discharge or explosion as you want to call it into a metal tube it will give you a real BOOM. Not a bottlerocket like I see in that video.

Agree..Chemical & Engineering News: Science & Technology - Burning Batteries
if you watch the top video of destructive testing about 5 seconds in watch the right end blow off after the initial venting

another interesting article:Researchers identify cause of li-ion battery fires, fast-charging an issue concerning the over rate charging causing dendrites and internal shorts

and how the manufacturing industry is coping :What's Wrong With Lithium-Ion Batteries? (Made By Monkeys)

The point still comes down to they can explode and you have to engineer in a way(s) to deal with this period no matter how remote the chances

 

[hifistud]

Well, now. Take two unprotected 3v 18340 batteries. Over-discharge one down to 0.4 volts, and then jump-start it and overcharge it by a volt, while the other one gets overcharged and has a flaw in its wrap. Stick them in a mod that has a straight short...

Tin Your Tip shows the rest...

 

[Martö]

He's using Li-FePO4 3.3 volt with a max charge of 3.6 roughly.. I can't make out the mfg data to look up the product data sheet. It may be possible these are capable of handling a higher charge, but without the data sheet it's an unknown.

Li-FePO4 has a harder time losing oxygen thus catching on fire or exploding.

Also take note that overcharging these result in heat generation just like an electronics they bleed energy off as heat.

Now I don't know what he's done to them prior to this test video but I'm sure it's pitted the materials inside which has caused them to not retain a charge over a period of time.

This video can be misleading to people because there are so many different types of batteries on the market and each has it's own product data sheet or msds. That's the information you really should be looking at..

Battery chemistry has a huge affect on what is going to happen under different types of abuse and it would be very foolish to think you can do this activity to any 18340 battery..

18340 is just the size of the battery 18mm x 34mm 34mm does not include the size of the pcb protection if installed.

 

[Martö]

FTC Bureau of Consumer Protection's mandate is to protect consumers against unfair, deceptive, or fraudulent practices. that's where complaints need to go..

If you see UL then make sure it's real.. UL Online Certifications Directory

CE Mark the EU uses, well China uses that as well. Example I am looking at my charger and the CE mark only means China Export and Not EU approved nor UL listed.

Now for batteries. I spent a good 4 hours yesterday looking for Product data sheets for batteries. I can tell you they are almost nonexistent for Lithium type.. I found 2 and one battery was from Canada the other was way older and probably outdated.

It all boils down to the consumer. That's why there is labeling on products or boxes. You don't see the label don't buy it it's not proven safe. If it's labeled then check and make sure.

 

[AZCraig]

Sooooooo

Smoktech WOO starter kit-5V MOD

I know. I've seen these around. I get good enough results from non stacked battery mods that I'm not willing to risk stacking batteries just yet.

 

[ambientech]

He's using Li-FePO4 3.3 volt with a max charge of 3.6 roughly.. I can't make out the mfg data to look up the product data sheet. It may be possible these are capable of handling a higher charge, but without the data sheet it's an unknown.

Li-FePO4 has a harder time losing oxygen thus catching on fire or exploding.

Also take note that overcharging these result in heat generation just like an electronics they bleed energy off as heat.

Now I don't know what he's done to them prior to this test video but I'm sure it's pitted the materials inside which has caused them to not retain a charge over a period of time.

This video can be misleading to people because there are so many different types of batteries on the market and each has it's own product data sheet or msds. That's the information you really should be looking at..

Battery chemistry has a huge affect on what is going to happen under different types of abuse and it would be very foolish to think you can do this activity to any 18340 battery..

18340 is just the size of the battery 18mm x 34mm 34mm does not include the size of the pcb protection if installed.

Yes he is using LiFe batteries and out of all lithium batteries they are afaik considered the safest. I fly rc planes and we us lipo's which are really easy to get to go thermal. I can get a lipo to go thermal almost on demand. For this reason some will only use LiFe. I have in the past on several occasions completely killed LiFe cells and brought them back to life with no symptoms of damage. We used to zip charge them in a few minutes with a 12V gel cell and no I wont say how because some fool will try and do it with a Li-ion LOL Now these were A123 branded which are the best and I dont have any experience with other brand LiFe but I don't think I have ever heard an A123/LiFe battery going thermal. I almost think it is impossible....

 

[tearose50]

What I don't like about Tin Your Tip ---

He appears to me to be trying to convince people that you can't make batteries blow up/melt/explode in a mod. I'm sure the Volt car people did lots of tests too -- and much more scientific with all sorts of government guidelines and money to do them with.

Unfortunately, it does happen, when the user isn't trying to make it happen.

The true challenge is --- how to make additional safety precautions. That's where the creative energies need to go. If you don't like the ideas presented, state your views diplomatically and come up with better ones or new ideas.

It would be good if there would be more debate on solutions.