Regarding ECF Safety Specification For Metal Tube Mods

[st0nedpenguin]

Before making suggestions to vendors regarding safety features in their mods, I'd be curious to see a direct comparison between the number of people who have experienced a battery venting/heating and the number of people who have had a tube mod explode in their face.

If, as I suspect, there have been far more cases of "Oh no my mod is warming up and/or venting from the bottom, drop it/toss it outside" than there have "Oh dear my mod just blew my face off", then by pushing for vendors to add full length slots down the mod body for venting purposes surely ECF is actually likely to cause more harm than good?

I'd much rather be warned that something is wrong by the tube getting hot and/or bottom venting occurring than by my hand being horribly burned thanks to a series of slots down the length of the tube.

I could be alone in this though.

 

[RippleInStillWater]

All I know is that the GGs are just fine the way they are without any damned holes.......

 

[DC2]

I can assure you I'm not putting any more holes in my precious Chucks.


So I'm hoping that vent hole in the bottom will at least provide enough warning to drop the damn thing.
Which reminds me of a question I want to ask...

What about the 4.8v NiMH batteries from Madvapes that I'm using now?
I keep hearing they are safer, but I'm not clear on why they are safer.

Trying to Google for the answer only confuses me more.

 

[six]

What about the 4.8v NiMH batteries from Madvapes that I'm using now?
I keep hearing they are safer, but I'm not clear on why they are safer.

ni-mh chem is safer because of the much smaller amount of hydrogen produced in a venting event. Those particular batts are 4 cells shrink wrapped together. Each cell has an internal vent. So, if one cell vents, it isn't at all likely that all four cells will vent. So, a smaller amount of gas plus a safety feature of each cell being individually vented for an even smaller amount of likely gas in a venting situation = very little outgassing and therefore very little pressure created in that sort of a situation.

 

[sanjosse]

Maybe a thread allowing one line tips. Then edited by the smartest person on the ECF staff into a top 100 tips (with links if required to supporting info), then made into a sticky. Could you imagine 100 long winded posts? Even I wouldn't read that (yes I would) But 100 lines, yeah maybe.

BTW: if you ever ran into a cell that read 4.3 volts off the charger your meter is wrong
or the charger almost blew up your battery. Thank goodness for the protection circuit on the battery.


Here's my one tip (can be moved anywhere, just 99 to go):
If you check your charger's termination voltage, regularly, and notice that charger voltage has changed, something has changed. Sameness gives you the warm and fuzzy. Change is not good.

and since everyone links to Battery University, here's something a little different:
Current, voltage and temperature govern Li-Ion battery charging

Thanks for tip 1 and the link, it was very informative. But unfortunately the link to PART 2 is dead.

 

[markfm]

My contribution is Part II Current, voltage and temperature govern Li-Ion battery charging - Part 2

 

[Stubby]

What about the 4.8v NiMH batteries from Madvapes that I'm using now?
I keep hearing they are safer, but I'm not clear on why they are safer.

Trying to Google for the answer only confuses me more.

The 4.8v HiMh is really just a stop gab measure so you can use the manual big battery electronic cigarettes more safely. I don't know how good the quality is compared to the better AA and AAA NiHm and at this point, and that's the problem. At 600 mAh they are on the very low end of capacity.

Much better would be to build an e-cig that uses 4 AAA NiHm. The choice of batteries and chargers is greatly expanded with some very high quality batteries on the market that would undoubtable outperform the 4.8v in a number of areas, including capacity and the ability to deliver amps on demand.

If we really want to make a safer e-cig manufactures need to give a serious look at getting away from lithium as there is no way it could ever be as safe as NiHm. Nearly all of the safety issues that come up with lithium disappear with NiHm.

Edit: Sorry as I know this gets off the original subject of establishing guidelines for manufactures, but it seemed appropriate somehow.

 

[DC2]

The 4.8v HiMh is really just a stop gab measure so you can use the manual big battery electronic cigarettes more safely. I don't know how good the quality is compared to the better AA and AAA NiHm and at this point, and that's the problem.

From the limited research I've done they SEEM to be from Callie's Kustom, but I haven't been able to verify that yet.
If they are, that would I guess be a good thing, since I keep seeing people say their batteries are better than the AWs.

 

[rolygate]

The 4.8v HiMh is really just a stop gab measure so you can use the manual big battery electronic cigarettes more safely. I don't know how good the quality is compared to the better AA and AAA NiHm and at this point, and that's the problem. At 600 mAh they are on the very low end of capacity.

Much better would be to build an e-cig that uses 4 AAA NiHm. The choice of batteries and chargers is greatly expanded with some very high quality batteries on the market that would undoubtable outperform the 4.8v in a number of areas, including capacity and the ability to deliver amps on demand.

If we really want to make a safer e-cig manufactures need to give a serious look at getting away from lithium as there is no way it could ever be as safe as NiHm. Nearly all of the safety issues that come up with lithium disappear with NiHm.

Edit: Sorry as I know this gets off the original subject of establishing guidelines for manufactures, but is seemed appropriate somehow.

I tend to agree with this. A design that uses Ni-Mh and has enough C rating at 3.6 volts or 5 volts or whatever sounds a very good idea. Also the new Ni-Zn cells look promising. Lithium batteries are intrinsically unsafe and there is no way to fix that. Part of the problem now is that even though you think you have a high-quality battery as it cost you $10, but because there are so many counterfeits out there, in practice it may be impossible to state that with any degree of certainty. There are a lot more Gucci handbags out there than the factory ever made.

We might have reached the point where there are more fakes than genuine items in circulation. I'm told that the worst situation of all is likely to be with the Tenergy Li-FePo4 because it is extensively counterfeited. No idea if this is true or not but there are reasons to believe it could be: tests of genuine Tenergy Li-FePo4 batteries look very good indeed - but some fail badly in use. In fact we now have a confirmed incident where brand new Tenergy batteries bought from a vendor cause an explosion resulting in what may be the most serious injuries yet. It seems likely those cells were counterfeits. Fake batteries are probably going to be reject unprotected Li-ion cells bought by the pallet load, stripped, and re-labelled. They are unlikely to be cheaper Li-FePo4 cells. This explains a lot.

Anyway, the trouble is, for the 200,000 existing mods out there, we have to look at solutions that can be fitted now, and retrofitted to existing units.

Also, new mod designs are now being suggested that make the EMSS entirely redundant, they look so promising. Hallelujah.

These new designs include integral venting that mean external vents are not needed. If they turn out to be as good as they look on paper then it's job done.

 

[buGG]

From the limited research I've done they SEEM to be from Callie's Kustom, but I haven't been able to verify that yet.
If they are, that would I guess be a good thing, since I keep seeing people say their batteries are better than the AWs.

I don't think they sell a NiMH pack. You might be talking about the special Li-ion panasonic battery they sell in comparison to an "AW IMR" 18650.

 

[DC2]

I don't think they sell a NiMH pack. You might be talking about the special Li-ion panasonic battery they sell in comparison to an "AW IMR" 18650.

Yeah, I didn't see any on their website, and now I can't remember where I got the idea in the first place.
So it is very possible I may be full of crap on this one.


I'll try to remember where I got the idea that they were Callie's Kustoms.

 

[Indomitable]

You do not think there is enough dissension as it is that you have to
dictate what is safe or non-safe by going on assumptions, especially when you are not an engineer. Nor has enough testing been done to provoke this kind of animosity with vendors or vapors. Not just one engineer but many need to be involved with these testings so that no bias is present in the end results.

What you are doing is promoting one vendor and annihilating others. No one knows if it is the mods, batteries, chargers or fault of the users of such products..as of yet. So please, stop with assumptions and show proof.
There are many reputable vendors who sell mods that do put on their sites some safety cautions they are aware of.

Futhermore, I will not buy from any vendor who deems fit to 'Act' professional on one public forum, then goes to another and shows their behaviour to be completely discourteous and uncouth. The 'Act' is for money, nothing else. IMO

 

[hifistud]

On tonight's Tin Your Tip, Garry Dibley took a mod in failure mode, put in two batteries it wasn't supposed to take, stacked, and tried to make it blow up. Did he succeed?? You'll have to watch to find out! Tin Your Tip

 

[cbrociuos]

thanks for the link.

 

[skipdashu]

On tonight's Tin Your Tip, Garry Dibley took a mod in failure mode, put in two batteries it wasn't supposed to take, stacked, and tried to make it blow up. Did he succeed?? You'll have to watch to find out! Tin Your Tip

Zzzzzzz VTTV discussion with Rolygate and Mike 'Buzz' and others was a lot more interesting.

 

[hifistud]

Zzzzzzz VTTV discussion with Rolygate and Mike 'Buzz' and others was a lot more interesting.

I think what's interesting about the show last night is that it actually wasn't spectacular - no booms, no bangs, no explosions, from a mod that, if we're to believe what we're told, was a racing certainty to take out half the neighbourhood four milliseconds after it got powered up.

 

[pumasforpets]

Sooooooo

Smoktech WOO starter kit-5V MOD

 

[markfm]

It must have slots, just bad lighting in the photo

 

[pumasforpets]

And this is what I'm talking about. The small time modders are going to kill their business trying to comply...and the Chinese manus are gong to laugh all the way to the bank while completely ignoring EMSS.

 

[rolygate]

In order to create an explosion, a chain of non-normal operational factors would need to be employed. What was demonstrated was semi-normal operation with the safest possible batteries, Li-Fe.

We still don't know what causes the blowups but we do know they are not common. Therefore we must assume that something unusual is occurring. It could be useful to carry out some research to see if the kind of chained failures that must be needed to create the conditions for an explosion could be recreated.

We can assume that the explosions are occurring due to a chain of failures and/or mishaps. So we should probably start with reject unprotected Li-ion batteries (the normal type of cheap lithium cell), not safer-chemistry Li-Fe cells. It seems very likely that counterfeit batteries are at the core of the problem.

Next, create a damage / reject condition. We know that counterfeiters will probably start with a pallet load of reject Li-ion batteries, refused by a manufacturer after tests as not suitable for inclusion in OEM equipment. They then strip the labels and recover them as whatever is selling well at the time: Li-Fe, Li-Mn, whatever. So let's damage the battery so that it fails a basic test of the sort a manufacturer would employ before putting it in their widget. We would need to recreate a manufacturing fault of the sort that causes (for example) a short between the layers due to a perforated insulator in the cylindrical wrap, or a foreign body shorting to the can internally. I'd start by puncturing it very carefully with a thin nail (maybe a panel pin?), going down through one or two layers of the wrap, in order to damage it but still allow it to work - then seal up the punctured can.

Now we must 'damage' the charger in some way. (We have to create a chain of failures, normal conditions do not lead to people being in hospital with severe injuries.) We will re-set it to charge to 4.5 volts, or 4.8 volts, or whatever we can get out of it without causing the battery to fail on-charge.

Now we fix the final part of the jigsaw: strip part of the label to expose the can, and put a lump of solder on the battery can of the first cell in the tube, to replicate a short to earth caused by a ripped label. The secondary circuit has to produce the maximum voltage possible while bypassing the internal fuse (hot spring) - so the short to earth might need to be on battery #2, not on batt #1. Needs experimentation.

Place two overcharged junk batteries in the sealed steel tube mod, with the top cell damaged and a short to earth somewhere that bypasses the fuse.

Now you have a chain fail that might produce a blowup - 'might' being the operative word. We don't know what causes it, but at this point have to assume it is a chain of failures starting with damaged reject unprotected basic Li-ion batteries re-covered as counterfeits.

There must be at least two failures in the chain or an accident cannot happen.