Salt?

[ajventi]

There's always going to be some water in PG and VG. I wouldn't go assuming that they are non-conductive with salt in solution. In fact my scientific knowledge would say that is completely wrong since salt is an ionizing solution. It's more likely there just is little or no actual chlorine being released.

But I also think the idea that since someone else is doing it and not dropping dead that it's safe. I'm not alone in that I have concerns about the safety of using any organic acids (citric and malic) in a vape, although i feel vinegar which is a volatile organic acid is most likely not an issue. I also think there are vendors and vapers still vaping diacetyl and oils even though it's a well known hazard.

 

[mariahpoo]

There's always going to be some water in PG and VG. I wouldn't go assuming that they are non-conductive with salt in solution. In fact my scientific knowledge would say that is completely wrong since salt is an ionizing solution. It's more likely there just is little or no actual chlorine being released.

But I also think the idea that since someone else is doing it and not dropping dead that it's safe. I'm not alone in that I have concerns about the safety of using any organic acids (citric and malic) in a vape, although i feel vinegar which is a volatile organic acid is most likely not an issue. I also think there are vendors and vapers still vaping diacetyl and oils even though it's a well known hazard.

Again... that is why I am going to test first. My theory is that it will not conduct like pure water and salt. But one must always test their theory. Too just assume would make me a total idiot... you know?

 

[mariahpoo]

BTW my husband is down for helping me do some experiments with pg, vg, salt and batteries. It will have to be tested at different watts and voltages... I might just use several of the exact batteries and gadgets we use when vapeing. SO I will be needing to get a bunch of different kinds of equipment... in the name of vapeing What a prefect excuse for a bunch of new toys!

 

[nnote]

Don't forget salt is corosive...

 

[ajventi]

Lol, I just posted about an hour ago in the wrong thread. My response got me thinking and I recreated that kids setup.

I rigged it so I could measure the voltage and Current. And used a couple nails punched in a piece of cork as electrodes.

With a 9V battery in saturated saltwater, it runs a 1.2A, while the voltage from that battery drops down to about 7V so that's 8.4W

The fascinating thing is with the nails the reaction was pretty interesting to watch. The negative electrode bubbles and gives off gas while the positive electrode begins do form a dark color and the green coloring drips down straight to the bottom of the glass. It's the color of Chlorine.

Ok I just found it on wikipedia, This is as I suspected producing Chlorine gas. In fact this is how NaOH and KOH are industrially produced. The Chlorine is actually a byproduct as NaOH has much more value. So the bubbles on the cathode (-) are Hydrogen gas, The anode is releasing Chlorine, half as Cl2 gas and the other half as Cl- ions in aqueous form. I didn't see any bubbles from that side, but the nail is forming a black ashy coating that is also flaking off into the solution. Perhaps it's a reaction with the iron.

I'm going to do some furthur testing later on. I really have to get some work done, I had to try this out mostly because I wanted to at least get an estimate of what should happen when you put a coil in saltwater.

So effectively the salt solution was giving a resistance of 5.8-ohms. So let's say you have a 2.6-ohm coil, you would get an effective resistance of 1.8-ohms with the coil seeing 2.3-A and the salt water taking 1-A.

Here's the thing, and I think some research could answer the question. When I stuck my voltmeter in the salt solution, before I tried this it had a resistance of 28-kohms. I believe saltwater functions as a type of capacitor. I have some very old foggy memories on the subject.

Anyway like I said. When I have time later I'll try out a few more tests. Both diluting the saltwater, which I suspect will lower the conductivity. And I'll do a similar thing with a PG/salt solution.

 

[purelyscientific]

Woah, thanks for sharing^^

 

[GrimmTech]

Lol, I just posted about an hour ago in the wrong thread. My response got me thinking and I recreated that kids setup.

I rigged it so I could measure the voltage and Current. And used a couple nails punched in a piece of cork as electrodes.

With a 9V battery in saturated saltwater, it runs a 1.2A, while the voltage from that battery drops down to about 7V so that's 8.4W

The fascinating thing is with the nails the reaction was pretty interesting to watch. The negative electrode bubbles and gives off gas while the positive electrode begins do form a dark color and the green coloring drips down straight to the bottom of the glass. It's the color of Chlorine.

Ok I just found it on wikipedia, This is as I suspected producing Chlorine gas. In fact this is how NaOH and KOH are industrially produced. The Chlorine is actually a byproduct as NaOH has much more value. So the bubbles on the cathode (-) are Hydrogen gas, The anode is releasing Chlorine, half as Cl2 gas and the other half as Cl- ions in aqueous form. I didn't see any bubbles from that side, but the nail is forming a black ashy coating that is also flaking off into the solution. Perhaps it's a reaction with the iron.

I'm going to do some furthur testing later on. I really have to get some work done, I had to try this out mostly because I wanted to at least get an estimate of what should happen when you put a coil in saltwater.

So effectively the salt solution was giving a resistance of 5.8-ohms. So let's say you have a 2.6-ohm coil, you would get an effective resistance of 1.8-ohms with the coil seeing 2.3-A and the salt water taking 1-A.

Here's the thing, and I think some research could answer the question. When I stuck my voltmeter in the salt solution, before I tried this it had a resistance of 28-kohms. I believe saltwater functions as a type of capacitor. I have some very old foggy memories on the subject.

Anyway like I said. When I have time later I'll try out a few more tests. Both diluting the saltwater, which I suspect will lower the conductivity. And I'll do a similar thing with a PG/salt solution.

Just rewrote my entire post. There is one very important thing we need to know. Someone needs to take a volt meter from an electrified coil to something metal in the tank and see if there is a return path to ground. That will tell for sure if the ejuice is being electrified or not. Also are the leads 0n the coil material actually touchhing the liquid or just the heated coil..

 

[ajventi]

Actually I touch electric fences on a regular basis, but that's besides the point.

My experiment wasn't at all definitive, nor did I make a claim that it was at all representative of simulating what would actually happen inside an actual atomizer. I'm quite sure any statements I made as to how electricity would actually flow in a saline solution were speculative, and I don't think I spoke with any definitive sense in any of my previous posts. That being said, I'm a bit informed with how current flows. It flows through the path of least resistance, and just like water if two paths with resistance are parallel some current flows through both paths, proportional to their resistances, but I guess I don't have to explain that to you.

Now you say the salt solution has a 'much greater' impedence. In my setup today I calculated 5.8 ohms. Forgive me if my sense of proportion isn't on a level with yours, but I consider 'much greater impedence in the kilo or mega ohm range in this example. See that's how you don't blow things up when you connect a voltmeter or oscilliscope across a circuit, because the testers have a high impedence and the current that flows through their circuits is so low as to have a negligible effect on the circuit being tested.

The main reason I set this up was to test conductivity of salt in various solvents. See I have a fundamental disagreement with your view that current will never flow through the liquid. All it takes is a coil to pop, and as you said the current will start flowing in an unintended path.

 

[Hosedragger]

well this has got me thinking a little and now I know why the term atomizer was bothering me. What our stuff does is wick not atomize. to atomize you break up the fluid in to smaller droplets. Ecigs are creating heat to turn them into a gaseous form which will still have some solid particles and some gas. to heat it to the point that it is just a gas would break it down too far and start to separate the materials in it. That's why a nebulizer can use NaCl to keep the pH in the right place and if you were to heat it to the point that our ecigs do there would be separation as Na is hard to break down and when you use it in cooking it is a suspension it does not fully dissolve like a sugar will making a solution.

 

[Jim Bob]

No worries I didn't take it like that at all. I did however thing of the evaporation and leaving salt behind thing. .

That was my first thought also and clogging atty or worse

 

[purelyscientific]

I put EM in my juices which is a crystal and as far as I know it hasn't been gunking up my addys.
So it stands to reason that salt, which is also a crystal, may not gunk it up either.

However it is very corrosive, so I would be weary about adding it in any amount to my juice.

 

[Hosedragger]

but it would also matter the size the crystal breaks down to and the shape. It been a very long time since I had to remember my chemistry and I might be wrong about it

 

[ajventi]

well this has got me thinking a little and now I know why the term atomizer was bothering me. What our stuff does is wick not atomize. to atomize you break up the fluid in to smaller droplets. Ecigs are creating heat to turn them into a gaseous form which will still have some solid particles and some gas. to heat it to the point that it is just a gas would break it down too far and start to separate the materials in it. That's why a nebulizer can use NaCl to keep the pH in the right place and if you were to heat it to the point that our ecigs do there would be separation as Na is hard to break down and when you use it in cooking it is a suspension it does not fully dissolve like a sugar will making a solution.

While I agree with most of what you're saying except it isn't (for the most part) turning our e-liquid into gaseous form if our atomizers were actually evaporating the liquid we would get distillation, which would mean the components of the liquid solution would separate based on their boiling points. And any chemicals in our liquid that were not liquid in their pure form would get left behind. That would include menthol crystals, EM, Sucralose, and god knows how many chemicals that are components of flavoring. I think atomize might be the best term, and wicking is what makes it possible. It's the wicking and creating that thin layer of liquid that makes it possible.

It's getting completely OT, but to some extent there is distillation, and it would be wrong to call our liquids pure solutions. I'm pretty sure especially with some of the natural extracts I've vaped there are components of the flavor that are a suspension rather than a solution. That's why tanks end up with thick dark juice. One day I'm going to try and check the SG of a liquid in the bottle vs the sludge left in the bottom of the tank. My theory is that water and alcohol are evaporating fully, while PG and expecially VG are getting left behind, as well as any components of the liquid that were suspended and not dissolved. In other words I'm quite sure if you start with a 50/50 liquid and vape say 5-mls in a tank, the stuff left behind would have a higher proportion of VG than 50%

To be clear a certain chemical or material can only be 'in solution' or 'in suspension' in a given liquid. Salt is soluble in water so it is always in solution. A suspension is a material that is insoluble in the given liquid but it's particles are blended in, and has many degrees. For example if you agitate sand in water to the point that the sand is basically distributed evenly it is a suspension, it will settle in a matter of seconds when the agitation stops, but other materials can stay in suspension nearly indefinitely.

I put EM in my juices which is a crystal and as far as I know it hasn't been gunking up my addys.
So it stands to reason that salt, which is also a crystal, may not gunk it up either.

However it is very corrosive, so I would be weary about adding it in any amount to my juice.

I do see crystals left behind in my carto filler. I can only speak for my DIY stuff, but menthol definitely leaves stuff behind. It can't all be left behind otherwise it would have no effect on the taste of your vape.

 

[mariahpoo]

Thank you all for your information. Very facinating for sure. I sould love to read you other findings as well.

 

[purelyscientific]

I do see crystals left behind in my carto filler. I can only speak for my DIY stuff, but menthol definitely leaves stuff behind. It can't all be left behind otherwise it would have no effect on the taste of your vape.

Does the stuff left behind effect vapor production or performance at all?

 

[killnine]

This is very interesting, and I had wondered about salt myself, but keep in mind what I think is important for flavor enhancement is raising the PH, so if there are other methods of raising the PH of certain juices, they may work as well. I think to get a good handle on this and its effects on flavor, you will need to test the PH of the juice before and after mixing with any additive. Just my 2 cents.

 

[ajventi]

Thank you all for your information. Very facinating for sure. I sould love to read you other findings as well.

I've been thinking about it, and I'm not sure I'm going to take my electrolysis test to the point of trying the PG solution. I'm a bit worried about the reactions that might take place.

Does the stuff left behind effect vapor production or performance at all?

I can't answer that very well. Since I can really only speak in terms of a DIY liquid. I can say some of the liquids I've bought which I'm pretty sure have sweetener and EM in them eventually gunk up cartos until they can't wick more than a few drops and effectively become a dripping atty.

This is very interesting, and I had wondered about salt myself, but keep in mind what I think is important for flavor enhancement is raising the PH, so if there are other methods of raising the PH of certain juices, they may work as well. I think to get a good handle on this and its effects on flavor, you will need to test the PH of the juice before and after mixing with any additive. Just my 2 cents.

Raising pH is lowering acidity, I think you mean to say lowering pH, which is IMO just as important as salt in cooking. I guess for any flavoring in general acidity tends to brighten it up and balance things, so it may be more useful than salt. I've never tested pH, though It's one of the things I'd like to look into one day. I actually have a very good and accurate pH meter which I'm hesitant to use for e-liquid. Mostly because testing it would require pouring at least 25-ml into a beaker, and with the viscosity of e-liquid I'd guess at least 8-mL would be left behind (lost) on the pH probe and beaker. I'd also be more interested in testing some of the liquids I haven't made and seeing if pH had any effect on TH, or some other undesirable characteristics I've found in other liquids.

I do however have wide range pH paper, I just haven't brought it home from work to drip juice on it yet.

 

[killnine]

I've been thinking about it, and I'm not sure I'm going to take my electrolysis test to the point of trying the PG solution. I'm a bit worried about the reactions that might take place.



I can't answer that very well. Since I can really only speak in terms of a DIY liquid. I can say some of the liquids I've bought which I'm pretty sure have sweetener and EM in them eventually gunk up cartos until they can't wick more than a few drops and effectively become a dripping atty.



Raising pH is lowering acidity, I think you mean to say lowering pH, which is IMO just as important as salt in cooking. I guess for any flavoring in general acidity tends to brighten it up and balance things, so it may be more useful than salt. I've never tested pH, though It's one of the things I'd like to look into one day. I actually have a very good and accurate pH meter which I'm hesitant to use for e-liquid. Mostly because testing it would require pouring at least 25-ml into a beaker, and with the viscosity of e-liquid I'd guess at least 8-mL would be left behind (lost) on the pH probe and beaker. I'd also be more interested in testing some of the liquids I haven't made and seeing if pH had any effect on TH, or some other undesirable characteristics I've found in other liquids.

I do however have wide range pH paper, I just haven't brought it home from work to drip juice on it yet.

No, I did mean to say raise the PH, or increase the alkalinity in other words. This generally boosts flavor, or at least allows them to spread out a bit. A higher PH will mean possibly lowering some of the bright notes however. Too high of a PH would also cut some of the antibacterial properties of a low PH. I doubt it would matter much in the presence of high concentrations of PG or VG though. Of course I have yet to test any of this, but I do know that a higher PH usually means broader flavors. This would be counterproductive in an acidic mixture though, like citrus based, etc. I don't know how many of our juices actually have acidic mixtures in them though. It would be interesting to test some different kinds of juices. This theory about raising PH would really only apply to sweeter juices in my opinion.

 

[killnine]

No, I did mean to say raise the PH, or increase the alkalinity in other words. This generally boosts flavor, or at least allows them to spread out a bit. A higher PH will mean possibly lowering some of the bright notes however. Too high of a PH would also cut some of the antibacterial properties of a low PH. I doubt it would matter much in the presence of high concentrations of PG or VG though. Of course I have yet to test any of this, but I do know that a higher PH usually means broader flavors. This would be counterproductive in an acidic mixture though, like citrus based, etc. I don't know how many of our juices actually have acidic mixtures in them though. It would be interesting to test some different kinds of juices. This theory about raising PH would really only apply to sweeter juices in my opinion.

So far the only thing I've been able to come up with to raise PH would be either sodium carbonate or chalk. I think either would probably be safer than straight salt, but they still present the issues of crystalization or calcium deposits.

 

[killnine]

Someone may have mentioned it already, but lemon tends to provide the same effects as salt in mixtures. This would be more effective in already bitter, acidic, or savory flavors.