Schedule F (Food & Drug Regulations): Nicotine

[Switched]

I'm starting to accept this as well. How do we fight for our freedom though??? I'm just too young to recall any Canadian victories to emulate or apply to better our chances, if there is indeed any. The one thing that is eating at my mind is that HC, the FDA, and nearly any other "health agency" is taking the exact stance as the WHO... And I don't trust them as far as I can throw them.

I support everyone who fights for their rights but we can't forget this isn't the US everyone. Many products and drugs that are readily available in other countries are not in Canada because of HC's stronghold. If we had the science behind vaping, would that even help? I'll admit. I am baffled.

The truth and short answer NO.

Now I know this answer is extremely controversial... nonetheless the facts. The hurdles that are placed in our way by the WHO and its subsidiaries (FDA, HC, MHRA etc...), or the hoops that one (organizations) has to jump through being scientific or otherwise is a stacked deck. That is why, there hasn't been nor will there ever be. New Zealand has the greatest amount of scientific data as far as I know, yet it has not been accepted by any body or or scientific legislative body.

 

[IanK1968]

wasnt New Zealands scientific evidence accused of being skewed by ruyan? I still believe that e-cig will still be here no matter what. When Melatonin was banned as I was reading people went to the states bringing back crates of the stuff. Some people say Melatonin was easier to get when it was banned then it is now, and cheaper. I still believe fighting for a reclassification of the e-cig is still worth it, but thats just me.

 

[Kams Cats]

I think the New Zealand study was done the same way a Canadian study would be done. I believe in Canada the drug company or whoever has a product is the one who must submit and pay for it as well as provide background studies etc. I am not 100% certain about that. It's part of the problem for getting things like e-cigs tested and studied in Canada.

I was into the little health food store here the other day. Things have changed in there big time. So many of the simple herbs such as slippery elm that I could buy in bulk powder are gone. Now everything is sold in capsules in bottles with fancy labels and 5x the price. Don't know if that was HC's doing or not but is was sad and frustrating.

 

[IanK1968]

I wonder if Health Canada would even be convinced with an independent study, or just brush it off and try to keep the ban in place.

 

[rachelcoffe]

People, I can't emphasize this enough. Please re-read post #50 in this thread, at the bottom of page 5.

E-cigs and/or e-juice with nicotine are not health products or pharmaceuticals. Our class-action suit against HC is based on one thing: current law. HC is ignoring, contradicting & violating the law. The things they're saying & doing to vapers are not legally valid. The ban is not legally valid. So, we will seek to have the court uphold current law. This isn't difficult to understand.

Our legal battle with HC has nothing to do with testing of any kind, or with the effectiveness or safety of vaping. As we made very clear in post #50 in this thread...under the present bogus conditions, it is impossible for anyone who manufactures e-cigs and/or e-juice with nicotine to receive market authorization from HC in a million years. Because the premise is false from the beginning.

If you submit a product that isn't a health product, for testing as a health product...obviously it can never be approved as such, because it isn't a health product! You may as well be submitting packages of Bubblicious chewing gum.

I realize we're all on the same side here. But it does get frustrating to see some of us apparently failing to understand the basics of this...while getting sidetracked & gloomy over stuff that is completely irrelevant to our legal battle with HC. The law is already entirely on our side in this matter. That is why we'll win.

The only thing we need to do now is actually file the suit. We have found a firm that has expressed interest in taking us on. It's taking a little while to get it all in place (see post #50 again), but the wheels are in motion.

So keep on vaping & be of good cheer, friends - we're in it to win it!

 

[Kams Cats]

I agree with you Rachel. Was just commenting on the way studies are submitted to HC being very much like the NZ study and also who HC has changed the face of the Natural health industry with their tactics. Just getting off track with the topic.

 

[rachelcoffe]

I agree with you Rachel. Was just commenting on the way studies are submitted to HC being very much like the NZ study and also who HC has changed the face of the Natural health industry with their tactics. Just getting off track with the topic.

No worries Kams Cats

- my comments re: not getting it weren't directed towards you.

 

[Switched]

I think the New Zealand study was done the same way a Canadian study would be done. I believe in Canada the drug company or whoever has a product is the one who must submit and pay for it as well as provide background studies etc. I am not 100% certain about that. It's part of the problem for getting things like e-cigs tested and studied in Canada.
SNIP

Yup, that is the way it goes.

 

[rachelcoffe]

I wonder if Health Canada would even be convinced with an independent study, or just brush it off and try to keep the ban in place.

There are several independent studies out there now, Ian. HC isn't disputing any of them.

The reason that these studies (which scientifically, clinically prove that vaping e-juice is thousands of times safer than smoking tobacco) are not making any difference to HC in their policy...is because the fact that vaping is far safer than smoking has nothing to do with HC's testing criteria.

They have falsely misclassified e-cigs & e-juice with nic as "health products," despite the fact that these products do not meet the two fundamental prerequisites for such a classification (they are not marketed as such, and do not make any therapeutic claims).

Since e-cigs & e-juice with nic aren't health products...therefore, no test can ever possibly show them to be such. Which means HC will never authorize them as such, on those grounds alone. You see the problem? No test in the world will make any difference with HC, no matter how many are conducted...no matter how many centuries pass...no matter how much safer vaping is proved to be...

...because HC has been operating on the basis of an unlawful misclassification of these products - a dishonest misclassification that was put in place solely to try & unlawfully ban these legal products.

That's why we need to file the suit.

 

[IanK1968]

Rach, I woulod love to know what to do here. What are the lawyers names? can there be a fund drive to pay for this lawyer? give us something to go on, something to do. If this is such a win for us, we should all know what direction we are going. Please provide some info, any info.

 

[rachelcoffe]

Rach, I woulod love to know what to do here. What are the lawyers names? can there be a fund drive to pay for this lawyer? give us something to go on, something to do. If this is such a win for us, we should all know what direction we are going. Please provide some info, any info.

As soon as I have some newer info to share Ian, I definitely will.

I'd rather not share the names of the lawyers yet; ditto for the firm. That really should wait until we've actually got things formalized. I can tell you though that since this is not a commercial suit, but rather a class-action suit on behalf of all Canadian vapers...our legal counsel will be paid on contingency. Not on a by-the-hour basis, or in advance. Contingency also means that if we don't win, they don't get paid. This is part of the reason that we couldn't just find any old lawyer & hire them on the spot. And it's why the firms are a lot choosier about deciding to take on this sort of case.

Fortunately, our case is rock solid, very straightforward & simple. As long as we can file it, we'll win it, no question.

I really don't have more details to share at this time hon, though I truly appreciate the generosity of so many vapers who are willing to contribute, should it become necessary down the road. All I can say for now is we'll speak with the lawyers ASAP - and hopefully formalize their representation & get the suit going ASAP too.

For now, you know everything we know!

 

[IanK1968]

Has this lawyer taken this on? we still need a fund drive in order to pay him. Why arent you allowed to give out his name? I dont understand, please explain.

 

[rachelcoffe]

Has this lawyer taken this on? we still need a fund drive in order to pay him. Why arent you allowed to give out his name? I dont understand, please explain.

Ian, lol...please re-read the post. I never said I wasn't allowed to give out the names; just said I think it's best to wait till things are formalized before making that information public. The payment will be on contingency.

 

[IanK1968]

This is making no sense to me rach. You say I know as much as you but you are the one with all this information. Why is it such a secret to keep the name of the law firm secret? I think it would lend more credence if the law firms name was up and we can offer more evidence.

If you know as much as we know it means you know nothing cuz we know nothing. Give us something to lend credence to all this please.

 

[rachelcoffe]

This is making no sense to me rach. You say I know as much as you but you are the one with all this information. Why is it such a secret to keep the name of the law firm secret? I think it would lend more credence if the law firms name was up and we can offer more evidence.

If you know as much as we know it means you know nothing cuz we know nothing. Give us something to lend credence to all this please.

Ian, I'm being as clear as Tabalian glass here.

No, we have not formalized representation yet...they've expressed interest, but it's not a done deal yet. Which is why I feel it is best to keep that information private, until we do formalize such. Yes, we will try to do so ASAP. Please re-read post #50 in this thread for why that's taking a bit of time. As for money, please re-read post #71 in this thread - the lawyers will be paid on contingency.

Hope that clarifies things.

 

[IanK1968]

If your so sure we are going to win the the lawyer works on Contingency are you going to wait until we win to start a drive? HE will want his money before he leaves the courtroom, they are not ones to say ohhh pay me in a month or two or ten.

 

[IanK1968]

this layer then just said im interested but Im busy atm, so talk to me later? I dont think I would say anything until I secured a lawyer. Lawyers have a bad habit of forgetting who you are and brush you off. I know ive dealt with alot of them.

 

[rachelcoffe]

If your so sure we are going to win the the lawyer works on Contingency are you going to wait until we win to start a drive? HE will want his money before he leaves the courtroom, they are not ones to say ohhh pay me in a month or two or ten.

Ian, under what is commonly known as the English Rule, the losing party (in this case, HC) pays the winning party's legal fees, as well as any other court costs. We'll be fine, hon.

P.S. This was hardly a one-off message expressing mild interest. As I said in post #50, despite not yet having had the chance to arrange a meeting in person, or formalize representation...they have been eagerly discussing the matter at great length with us online. Strategy, counter-attacks for things that HC hasn't even suggested yet - you name it. These folks know vaping very well, and have expressed more than a passing interest in the case.

 

[IanK1968]

ok and when is this lawyer going to get back to you? is he local in Toronto? has he had any experience in this type of case? Is he/she well versed in the Food and Drugs Act and Regulations?

 

[rachelcoffe]

ok and when is this lawyer going to get back to you? is he local in Toronto? has he had any experience in this type of case? Is he/she well versed in the Food and Drugs Act and Regulations?

Ian, I understand your impatience. I share in it at times. But please try to be patient. If I had a specific time & date in place, I'd have shared it already. I don't have that yet.

But I promise you, we are maintaining a rich, ongoing dialogue online - which is pretty generous, considering their current heavy workload with other cases & the fact that we haven't even formalized representation yet. "As soon as possible" means as soon as possible. That's when they will arrange the meeting. Bear in mind - they agree with our position & they actually want to have the meeting. Poking them every day to say "are ya ready yet?" isn't going to incline them to meet any faster, haha. We're in regular, ongoing contact. They haven't forgotten about us.

Yes, the firm is in Toronto. Yes, their lawyers have had experience in these kinds of cases. Yes, one in particular is very well suited to handle this matter (though I'm sure there are others there who are also suited).

My suggestion for now is to mix up a nice fresh batch of e-juice, and relax with a good vape, ok?

Patience, hon.