SE, NJoy vs. FDA -- Overflow thread

[kristin]

Not that I necessarily agree with the "stick/bully" approach, I do have to agree with the sentiment. The lack of motivation by the vaping community is disappointing at best these days. Maybe 10% of ECF members have actually stepped up with any real effort (you know who you are and I appreciate you to no end!!)

Case in point - New York. I see plenty of members complaining, worrying and talking about stocking up, etc, but see very few announcing their appointment/phone call with their representative. Only three have contacted me about how they can help. It's like watching the smoking bans all over again - complete apathy.

We have been telling people for some time now not to bother with emailing at this point - they are answered with canned responses by a lacky at best or deleted without being read at worst.

Hand-written letters, faxes, phone calls and actual face-to-face meetings are what it's going to take. An email can't hurt and it makes people feel like they are "doing something," but it's doing little or nothing to actually help.

CASAA donations haven't even reached $900.
Petition signatures haven't even reached 1,500.
22 states still don't have CASAA regional representatives.
Very few CASAA members have responded to the call to complete their CASAA profile.
Most people still haven't commented on the AAPHP petitions.
Comments on anti-ecig articles rarely exceed 12 comments.
Diggs and comments on pro-ecig articles rarely exceed 30-60 responses.
More often I hear, 'What is CASAA doing?" When I should be hearing, "I can do _____ for the cause!" or "What can I do to help?"

It's an act of desperation and frustration to lash out and say, "What is wrong with you people???"

This is not directed at the people who HAVE made the effort, but it's frustrating trying to help the majority of the people who won't step up and help themselves.

 

[Drozd]

I just wanted to chime in here for a second in support of what Roly is saying...

First we have to realize the different cultural aspects here...there's a big difference between the UK and the US...different measures and their effectiveness are different.

And I'm with Roly...in the US we're hugely apathetic to causes...all too often if it takes us more time and trouble than a quick email shot off then it's just too much trouble to bother with...

(EDIT: and a sore point I brought up with Kristin about the petition over the email verification and those confirmation emails showing up....if it's too much work because of apathy..less people are going to respond)

Sometimes it calls for that harsh reality check...and Roly here is trying to provide us with that ....
Emails are all too easy to ignore...they go to spam filters...or are read (and sometimes responded to) by interns who might if you're lucky respond with a canned form letter response...and you're one guy who's shot off a quick email..you think it even blips on that intern's radar to even forward it to their boss..phone calls are harder they have to actively blow you off...in person visits even harder..think of it this way...lets say you're an uncaring *#&$ ....is it easier to be that D*$% to someone to their face, over the phone, or via email...

All too often we're content to fire off an email and sit back and be proud of ourselves for being an activist and doing our part...when in reality we've done nothing for the cause..

lets take the revolutionary war into comparison a moment...unfair taxation without representation...people wrote letters and complained and whined with no effect...Franklin went all the way to England to talk to the King slightly more effective but still not enough..buch of guys jumped a ship and tossed some tea into the water..reaction.....sometimes it takes the stick

 

[lonercom]

...

CASAA donations haven't even reached $900. Guilty. I will correct that tomorrow.

Petition signatures haven't even reached 1,500. 125th signature

22 states still don't have CASAA regional representatives. Sorry, unable to do this

Very few CASAA members have responded to the call to complete their CASAA profile.

Most people still haven't commented on the AAPHP petitions. Made comments on both

Comments on anti-ecig articles rarely exceed 12 comments. Comment occasionally

Diggs and comments on pro-ecig articles rarely exceed 30-60 responses.

More often I hear, 'What is CASAA doing?" When I should be hearing, "I can do _____ for the cause!" or "What can I do to help?" What Else can I do to help?

It's an act of desperation and frustration to lash out and say, "What is wrong with you people???"

This is not directed at the people who HAVE made the effort, but it's frustrating trying to help the majority of the people who won't step up and help themselves.

This is just me, of course.

 

[rolygate]

Thank you, Kristin and Drozd.

I feel very sorry for those like Kristin and Spike who have worked endlessly to further the cause, when people do not support them enough.

Kristin - Comments on anti-ecig articles rarely exceed 12 comments.

Diggs and comments on pro-ecig articles rarely exceed 30-60 responses.

Do you think it would help if we had a board here, Kristin, where pro and anti ecig articles could be flagged up for members to visit and comment? If so, where exactly on ECF?

I am also in favor of an 'action' board where you guys can announce a Day Of Action to, for example, phone or write to a given recipient. I know these things are published but we should probably promote them more.

 

[kristin]

lets take the revolutionary war into comparison a moment...unfair taxation without representation...people wrote letters and complained and whined with no effect...Franklin went all the way to England to talk to the King slightly more effective but still not enough..buch of guys jumped a ship and tossed some tea into the water..reaction.....sometimes it takes the stick

"Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren, till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation?"

....

"They tell us, sir, that we are weak -- unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance, by lying supinely on our backs, and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot?"

....

"Sir, we are not weak, if we make a proper use of the means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. Three millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us."

....

"I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!"

- Patrick Henry - March 23, 1775

 

[Thulium]

Although I think rolygate makes some valid and important points, I don't think that email is completely ineffective. Email can be a very valuable tool for communicating with legislators and business decision-makers...but only if you can determine the email addresses that are actually READ by the aforementioned, and most of the time your letter will be filtered out unless it is addressed directly and solely to the recipient and they are expecting its arrival in time to remove you from their spam filter. This is not an easy task unless you actually--as rolygate points out--contact them over the phone or face to face.

There are other methods of "slacktivism" that do have a real effect: Surveys, petitions, and adding your name to the bottom of an Amicus brief do more than simply inflate egos...They also inflate NUMBERS that can be used by the true activists to show that they aren't alone in their opinion. The 20 people who attended in Illinois were certainly more effective than the thousands of the rest of us who couldn't be there, but their effectiveness was boosted by the fact that those people were representing the FACTS uncovered by "slacktivist" efforts like petitions, surveys, email campaigns, Youtube videos, Tweets, Facebook groups, and even online Forums like this one.

So we've got that going for us, which is nice...but what might need to be pointed out is what we DON'T have: We don't have multi-million dollar lobbying budgets, but we are fighting groups who do. We don't have multiple charitable organizations we can just throw money at to do the work for us, but we are fighting groups who do.

What we have is the TRUTH and the hope that the truth will indeed free us from tyrants and nannies. What we have is a COMMUNITY that is capable of circling the wagons and supporting one another (if we stop fighting amongst ourselves long enough). What we have is a handful of DEDICATED activists, consumers, and business owners who are fighting for something we truly believe in. Will it be enough to win? I don't know. It is too early to celebrate OR accept defeat because it is time to get involved instead.

 

[kristin]

Do you think it would help if we had a board here, Kristin, where pro and anti ecig articles could be flagged up for members to visit and comment? If so, where exactly on ECF?

I am also in favor of an 'action' board where you guys can announce a Day Of Action to, for example, phone or write to a given recipient. I know these things are published but we should probably promote them more.

I was actually just thinking about this the other day.

What about a section in the General E-smoking Discussion area (which seems most people check regularly, if they don't use the New Posts" feature)

It can be called "Digg This!" We should probably put an explaination in there on what Digg is, how to sign up and what to do for negative articles (comments but no Digg.)

 

[D103]

How utterly sad and disappointing. While the points made re: needing more involvement, e-mails are not the way to go, we need money, people making phone calls and snail mail and personal visits to legislators, etc. are all certainly valid, the "brutally harsh", condescending attempt to "shame" people into action is as old and tired as the manager's cartoon avatar and unfortunately time tested as being ineffective because when all is said and done it will inevitably alienate many more people than it can ever hope to rally. There is true leadership and then there is using the bully pulpit, as a bully and implying superiority and legitimacy through comments such as "...Because of the position I'm in I get to see many things you don't and it is my duty.....". True knowledge is power; to claim to have an 'inside track on things' in order to bolster one's opinion and justify 'the whip' is quite simply weakness and, by definition, the antithesis of leadership. We need true leaders, not some sad, old, pathetic coaching technique of calling team members whimps in order to shame them into playing harder. Just my opinion.

 

[Tom09]

Feeding the SE overflow thread:

. On April 22, Zoeller filed suit against Smoking Everywhere Inc., a company based in Weston, Fla., that sells electronic cigarettes and smoking-cessation products. Five Indiana consumers on the Do Not Call list complained to the Telephone Privacy Division that they received pre-recorded calls from Smoking Everywhere Inc. Moreover, the Florida company does not have a certificate of authority through the Secretary of State to do business in Indiana. Filed in Marion County Superior Court, the Attorney General's lawsuit seeks an injunction to require the company to cease its promotion in Indiana, cease its robo-calls or any calls to customers on the list, and civil penalties.

Not related to the main case, but still of some interest that SE has attracted another law suit [News Release May 17, AG Indiana]:

 

[kristin]

The irony is that the people who have been offended by Roly's posts are people who are already doing things. You have to know that he's not speaking to you - you already have done what you can!

But there are some people, unfortunately, who only seem to respond to a swift kick in the .....

Unfortunately, the people who need to hear the message are probably not even paying attention.

 

[Vaporer]

@ roly,
If you had "inside information" why wait till now to make comments on our "uselessness?
I haven't seen many posts by you offering insight and methods of support.
There are ways to supply supportive info without revealing your sources if that's an issue.

Many on this forum, if you are reading it, are on disability, limited incomes and other limiting factors.....calling them slackers, useless, not caring about their rights serves no purpose but to undermine our cause and less support than we do get when it's asked for.
With that attitude, why should they bother?

History repeats itself and whole armies have been brought down by less words and a battle lost.
This case is now approaching the Appeals court and anything at this point , if the law is followed, it should not be swayed by public opinion, only the facts presented and argued by counsel. Officials don't listen to people who aren't constituients of their state with no power to vote them out. Most don't listen to the ones in their state. A written letter?.....If they see the postmark(out of state) its a file 13'er (garbage). A phone call? Do you really think they will stop their busy schedule to talk to someone? So emails with a subjet line changed may get through at some level. Useless and stupid as you say, but one can only try. It still stands above doing nothing at all. IMO

Public awareness is about our only hope now (IMO) to show the lies that have been told, information misconstrued to have their way. At this point in time, can they sway the law if its truley followed by the courts? No one can prove BT & BP are backing it all.

Kristin and Vocalek have tried and I've supported their efforts too trying to get people to sign...what ever, and its been a tough road for participation. This I've stated on here to over 20,000+ members. People cannot be forced into participation, so if they have done abolutely nothing at all, for those, I can offer no support.

There was a meeting in DC months back and although I don't live within driving distance, so I suggested local vapers show up, with signs, peacefully, and a "notification" to the press. I was told out right that couldn't be done in a short time.

I've Dugg, signed every petition, and stupidly wasted my time according to you emailing everyone I could, changing the subject line to slip it through. Did it make it? I have no clue, but it WAS an effort, even if useless by your standards. How it that so much different than a mass email with many signatures short of trying to get it posted pubically?

I still believe the all inclusive statements you made were totally out of line and uncalled for. Does the word diplomacy or tact ring a bell? How about "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar?"

You sir hold a highly respected position on this forum. You are certainly entitled you your opinion, but your words should be chosen wisely.
From the comments you've made, I personally feel like our General just dropped a tactical nuke on the friendly troops.

 

[rolygate]

In this situation I wouldn't regard myself as any kind of leader. Having a platform makes a difference of course, but all I'm doing is offering a personal opinion, like everyone else who is not an association officer of some kind or an industry spokesperson.

And my opinion is that armchair 'activism' is not working for us, let's do something else.

I tend to be diplomatic most of the time because politeness comes naturally to me; but there is a time when diplomacy needs a little bit of a boost, and the polite approach is no longer appropriate. This is it.

Vaporer - Many on this forum.....calling them slackers, useless, not caring about their rights serves no purpose but to undermine our cause....

I didn't use the words 'slackers' or 'stupid' (as someone else claimed) as far as I remember. It appears you may think this was inferred, but I'd contest that. I think 'lazy' or 'uninformed' would be a more accurate description of any inferred meaning.

I also didn't use the word 'useless' to describe people either - simply the activity of emailing as against doing something. Since numbers are the only thing we've got going for us, they should be used in the most efficient way.

As for 'not caring about their rights', are you saying that someone who sends some emails 'cares about their rights' - at least, enough to justify feeling satisfied they have done their bit? Well, it's an interesting thought...

From the comments you've made, I personally feel like our General just dropped a tactical nuke on the friendly troops.

Aside from the fact I don't want that job, dropping a nuke is a bit much. Giving a gentle prod is more like it. It's a suggestion to get out of your chair and take action. The word 'action' implies something that cannot be done while seated.

Scenario: you wake up one day to find you can't buy your ecig refills or parts online, you can't buy them on main street. What then? Wish you'd done more than send an email; then buy a packet of cigs, and go back to Russian roulette with two rounds loaded. At least BT has the funds and commitment to stay afloat, without them you'd be on a prescription Nicotine Inhaler at $25 for the equivalent of 20 cigarettes. Phew. Or pay the street dealer four times what you paid last month for your ecig supplies, with the satisfaction of knowing the money's going straight to people you'd prefer were inside doing time if it wasn't for the fact you need them now. And how about that - paying your dealer for a healthier alternative to something on sale in the shops at a fraction of the price; now isn't that a green revolution come to life?

 

[trs-80]

welcome to the "liberated women". Before It was the women who had more free time to be activist for political movements. Now with the communist style eveyone must work while the children are raised by the "community' , no one has much free time to be active in polits. I think this is part of the reason you see so many retired people attending toawn hall meetings and tea parties. Pay is so low for one person that both partners have to work. Maybe some of the elders can be more helpful . Tell your mom and dad, grandma and granddad about ecigs???

 

[Mister]

The irony is that the people who have been offended by Roly's posts are people who are already doing things. You have to know that he's not speaking to you - you already have done what you can!
...
Unfortunately, the people who need to hear the message are probably not even paying attention.

Those are important points Kristin.

And they suggest one thing which you might do rolygate: post a call to action once a week or so. If every forum member has to dismiss a site-wide announcement once or more per week it doesn't seem to me to be very onerous and it may motivate more people to act.

Try a slightly different approach each time and see how many people act on the petition or whatever of the week in the following day to learn what kind of messages result in action.

If it were me I'd be posting an announcement something like the following with new variations at least once a week until the petition has gained thousands more signatures:

Our right to vape is under serious attack. You can make a difference in the battle to keep vaping legal. Before dismissing this message please sign the petition to the AAP, ACS, AHA, American Legacy Foundation, ALA, AMA, ASH, FDA, Public Citizen and Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids to change their policy. Follow the instructions at http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-sign-petition-raise-awareness-ecig-bans.html to sign the petition.

Maybe even post every two or three days, with updates on number of signatures or comments (while re-pushing something which has already been mentioned) and a "c'mon people" kind of comment if numbers aren't going up quickly or a "doing great, keep it up" if numbers are moving well. Make it a feel good group effort if possible, keeping in mind that applying a stick in site-wide messages would definitely be poorly perceived.

 

[karmatized]

when America won its freedom from England it wasn't from writing letters or talking to the monarch. It was through forcing the hand of fate. We stand to loose everything if you assume that these people in power care about your emails. I have said it before and i will say it again face to face is the way to go. Same way everyone is a tough guy on the internet or on the phone but in person they have to act human or face possibly getting punched in the face.

That metaphor is not suggesting punching anyone but rather just simply forcing the elected officials to listen to the words that come from our mouths.

Also just me personally i think a smear campaign on youtube would do 1000 times more to raise awareness then a petition. Get a cancer victim with tubes coming out there chest to say im going to die if this bill gets passed.
Attach a emotion people can relate to and support will come rolling in.

I mean come on the anti smoking truth ads related cigarettes to feces and rat poison.

I feel petitions and email are nothing more then personal ego .........ion so people can feel like they contributed.

 

[Vaporer]

The irony is that the people who have been offended by Roly's posts are people who are already doing things. You have to know that he's not speaking to you - you already have done what you can!

But there are some people, unfortunately, who only seem to respond to a swift kick in the .....

Unfortunately, the people who need to hear the message are probably not even paying attention.

Kristin,
When I'm quoted in a reply, that is spoken directly to me and everyone that has made the same efforts will see it applying to them as well. That's human nature.
"Only 3 have contacted me"...? I contacted you personally along with many others, months ago, when you wrote your 1st article asking for input from users the ecig has helped. I have followed your postings and signed everything you have asked for, as well as Vocaleks and others. I've posted that it's shameful of the little response we get for such a simple request to support this cause.

@Drodz
Apathetic? Yes, an unfortunate truth that the American public has fallen back to " someone else will surely not let this happen " attitude.
I will admit giult to that over the past 40 years in some cases as some issues seemed to unblieveable to ever be accepted, but they were.
Fault, I am not without.

@roly at what point am I misunderstanding you?

"Originally Posted by rolygate
Just a quick note on campaigning - email is a waste of time, always has been, always will be. If you value your rights you need to:

1. Get a bunch of similarly minded people and visit the appropriate person. Sit in their office if necessary, until everyone knows you're there and why you're there. And do it again next week.
2. If you can't do that, then phone them. Keep phoning them and get others to do so.
3. If you don't have a phone then mail them. Write and send mail on a regular basis. It doesn't work as well as being there or calling, but it's better than nothing.
...and 4: don't bother emailing. It takes 10 seconds of your time and is valued at the other end on the same scale. It gets filtered into the junk folder and does nothing. Nothing at all. Certainly nobody of any importance will ever see it or possibly even know about it.

"If you value your freedoms, do something about it. And do more than allocating 10 seconds of your time to it; it's a wasted ten seconds in any case. If you just don't care, then by all means email."

"I'm sad that many people think email has some kind of effect in and of itself. It may do if in addition to physical forms of action, but emailing by itself in general is a waste of time."

I would read this as "useless".

roly, you may think of your postings as from an individual, but with the title of "ECF Website Manager", many as I do, see it in a totally different perspective.

 

[CJsKee]

I think an "action board" and weekly/bi-weekly announcements are good ideas. I was also wondering if maybe it would be possible -- at least for the time being -- to move the "Campaigning" section of the forum higher up on the board. I have a feeling that many of the new members may not get far enough down to see it.

 

[Vaporer]

I'll quit posting here, anything else from me would be redundant.

 

[Drozd]

armchair activism has it's place...to get people thinking and starting to do things....but it has to be followed up it has to be built upon..

Sure send an email or 3...but really the lack of a response...or the canned formletter responses whould have people so infurated that their not being taken seriously or not being heard that they should be calling thier representatives offices or visiting with a WTF as much as letting them know it's an issue that's important to you...

Where we're at now is people who fire off that email and then shrug when they never hear back and turn back to their computer games or facey space pages...

Meanwhile...I'm so infuratied by the lack of response from one Erika Sward that I'm using the ALA website to find Lung walks nearby to take info and petitions to and semi anti ALA signs...I tried buying some $15 lung walk signs that they sell for pro ecig messages but they were going to censor them..

In addition any charitable contributions that you've made to any of those 3 letter abominations or their sponsors..let them know that you'll be pulling your contributions and encouraging your families to do the same..when I dropped all my bank of america stuff and told them it was because they supported the ALA they were less than enthused...as were several of the stores that sponsor the Lung walks when I let them know that I'd no longer shop there while they supported such an organization

 

[jojogardener]

I'm not an intellect, by far...but I understand the need ...this is the main reason why after only a few months of reading this stuff, I posted a plea for signautures...
I would like to see ALL members of this forum get friends, family member, co-workers, shoot, anyone......this is not just about our freedom to vape, its about our freedom.
As a proud naturlalized American I feel its my duty to act. I alone cant do it, but if others throw the tea overboard with me...it can me done!
I love America - the way it was intended BE!!
GOD BLESS AMERICA