Sellers offer liability insurance...huh? ASH PR

[unknwn]

I hear and agree with all those points.
You mentioned the charger a couple of times, and although that is a valid point, at least that device has a CE label and a vast user base for the circuitry and technology involved. A charger is made with tried and true components that have a very high install rate with impressive safety stats.

Lithium ion batteries are another story entirely. These things are just downright scary! The spontaneous combustion of lithium ion batteries is NOT an urban myth. It happens for many reasons -and- no reason at all.

I first found reason for concern when I discovered "battery mods" as a daughter forum on this site. The information, discussion, and arguments that I found there piqued my interest and led to additional research.
Studying these power cells led me to a site run by radio control hobbyists that have been using these batteries for a lot longer than e-cigs have been around.
The folks in that crowd state it plainly, "if you don't intend on following the well documented and myriad rule for the care/ feeding/ and disposal of lithium ion batteries, then you are a hazard to yourself and anyone in proximity to you" .
No where in all of e-cig world (except for the aforementioned "battery mod" forum on this site), have I found ANY information in regard to the safe use of these batteries. NONE. And I studied and investigated the product very well before jumping in, and daily since (close to 3 months now).

Mark my word, something disasterous can happen, (almost did already, look up the info on the pilot's association wanting to ban transport of Li-ion batteries just last week, if you dig you will see that the incident was e-cig batteries) and when it does, the people involved in supply/distribution are going to be in someone's sights.

If you are interested I will add a couple of links that outline the degree of concern that NEEDs to be associated with our beloved power supplies.

I said it before that I don't want to rain on the parade, but the user's deserve ready access to knowledge concerning lithium ion batteries.

 

[markarich159]

Unknown, I just literally watched a video review of SuperManufacturings T1 Mod device and apparently there is a safety louvre built into the device so that if the lithium batteries discharge, explode, degass, etc... the noxious vapor is shunted away from your face. Wow, are these things really that dangerous. I'm gonna provide a link, one second, here it is:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/super-t-manufacturing/34330-video-review-s-super-t1.html

Watch this review at listen at 3:38 into it. Amazing!!!

 

[mamacat]

I would love to see any insurance policies actually pay on claims in this day and age.

Totally off topic... but for those who roll through here and now have the BB stuck in their heads: he he. Have a good day!

YouTube - "So What'cha Want"

Sorry OT - THANK YOU!! That was great!

 

[unknwn]

Here is the safety info that a battery supplier posts on thier website, I'm hoping that no one minds the use of it for educational purposes.

Please be aware that this company does NOT sell e-cig batteries, but they sell individual cells and assembled packs for R/C and many other type of power needs. I for one am willing to consider them EXPERTS on the subject. Some of the information pertains to multi-cell packs which are inherently more dangerous than the single cell units that we generally deal with in our application. The information can be directly applied to our battery application, but may be more in depth and overmuch in some characteristics, the core parameters are pertinant to our use.

IMPORTANT SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS AND WARNINGS For LI-ION / POLYMER BATTERIES​

​

• You must read these safety instructions and warnings before using or charging your batteries.
• Lithium Polymer and Li-ion batteries are volatile. Failure to read and follow the below instructions may result in fire, personal injury and damage to property if charged or used improperly.
• By purchasing Lithium Polymer and Li-ion battery, the buyer assumes all risks associated with lithium batteries. If you do not agree with these conditions, please consider Nimh or Nicd battery or return the battery immediately before use.
• Li-Ion and Polymer battery & packs may explode and cause fire if misuse or defective. We require all Li-ion batteries & packs buyers must be professionals and have capability to handle emergency.
• Must follow our instruction exactly which is listed on batterypace.com product page to control charging and discharging current.
• When charging Battery Pack, please put battery in a fire proof container. Please don't leave battery pack and charger on the wood material or carpet and unattended.
• Must keep Li-Ion & Polymer battery pack away from children.
• If you build your own battery pack by our battery module, please make sure to charge each module separately by using our smart charger. The purpose is to keep each battery pack balanced during charging. The PCB inside will protect this module only.
• Never make wrong polarity connection when charging and discharging battery packs. Always double check polarity of battery's connector to make sure red wire to red wire and black wire to black wire.
• Test battery properties is your own responsibility. Please test Li-Ion battery you bought from us before using or sell to your customer to ensure battery can be operated preperly and safely in your device. Please click here to learn what is UL safety test standard for Li-Ion battery / pack. For more information, please contact Underwriters Laboratories directly.
• Must report your applications, charging and discharging rate if the Li-ion / polymer battery pack is over 14.8V, we won't ship it out without this information. Please download, fill the form and fax back to 510-525-4728. Attn: BatteySpace-Tech

General Guidelines and Warnings

• 1) Use specific Lithium Polymer/Li-ion charger only. Do not use a NiMH or NiCd charger - Failure to do so may a cause fire, which may result in personal injury and property damage.
• 2) Never charge batteries unattended. When charging LiPo/Li-ion batteries you should always remain in constant observation to monitor the charging process and react to potential problems that may occur.
• 3) Some LiPo/Li-ion chargers on the market may have technical deficiencies that may cause it to charge the LiPo/Li-ion batteries incorrectly or at an improper rate. It is your responsibility solely to assure the charger you purchased works properly. Always monitor charging process to assure batteries are being charged properly. Failure to do so may result in fire.
• 4) If at any time you witness a battery starting to balloon, swell up, smoke or hot, discontinue charging process immediately, disconnect the battery and observe it in a safe place for approximately 15 minutes. This may cause the battery to leak, and the reaction with air may cause the chemicals to ignite, resulting in fire.
• 5) Since delayed chemical reaction can occur, it is best to observe the battery as a safety precaution. Battery observation should occur in a safe area outside of any building or vehicle and away from any combustible material.
• 6) Wire lead shorts can cause fire! If you accidentally short the wires, the battery must be placed in a safe area for observation for approximately 15 minutes. Additionally, if a short occurs and contact is made with metal (such as rings on your hand), severe injuries may occur due to the conductibility of electric current.
• 7) A battery can still ignite even after 10 minutes.
• 8) In the event of a crash due to bad shipment or other reason, you must remove battery for observation and place in a safe open area away from any combustible material for approximately 15 minutes.
• 9) If for any reason you need to cut the terminal wires, it will be necessary to cut each wire separately, ensuring the wires to not touch each other or a short may occur, potentially causing a fire.
• 10) To solder a connector: Remove insulating tape of Red wire and solder to positive terminal of a connector, then remove insulating tape of Black wire and solder to the negative terminal of connector. Be careful not to short the wire lead. If you accidentally cause the battery to short, place it in a safe open space and observe the battery for approximately 15 minutes. A battery may swell or even possibly catch fire after a short time.
• 11) Never store or charge battery pack inside your car in extreme temperatures, since extreme temperature could ignite fire.
• 12) Never drop the batteries.
• 13) We suggest you put the battery in an enclosure to protect it from damages by liquid or dropping from height accidentally.

Charging Process

• <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>1) Never charge batteries unattended. <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>2) Put battery in the fireproof container and charge in an isolated area, away from other flammable materials. Always have fire extinguisher for emergency use. <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>3) Let battery cool down to ambient temperature before charging. <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>4) Do not charge batteries packs in series. Charge each battery pack individually. Failure to do so may result in incorrect battery recognition and charging functions. Overcharging may occur and fire may be the result.
• 5) When selecting the cell count or voltage for charging purposes, select the cell count and voltage as it appears on the battery label. As a safety precaution, please confirm the information printed on the battery is correct.

a. Example: The label on a 2-Cell battery pack in series will read charge as 2-Cell (7.4V), or may cause fire. You must select 2-Cell for charging.
b. Example: The label on a 3-Cell battery pack in series will read charge as 3-Cell (11.1V), or may cause fire. You must select 3-Cell for charging.
​

• <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>6) Selecting a cell count other than the one printed on the battery (always confirm label is correct), can cause fire. <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>7) You must check the pack voltage before charging. Do not attempt to charge any pack if open voltage per cell is less than 3.3v <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>Example Do not charge a 2-cell pack if below 6.6v <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>Do not charge a 3 cell pack if below 9.9v <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>8) You must select the charge rate current that does not to exceed 1C (one times the capacity of the battery). A higher setting may cause fire. The below chart is calculated at 1 x capacity of pack. Example 2000 mAh: Charge below 2.0 Amps. We strongly recommend using our Li-ion battery charger to charge our batteries. <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>4800 mAh: Charge below 4.8 Amps <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>5500 mAh: Charge below 5.5 Amps
• 6150 mAh: Charge below 6.1 Amps

Storage & Transportation

• <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>1) Store battery at room temperature between 40 and 80 degrees F for best results. <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>2) Do not expose battery pack to direct sunlight (heat) for extended periods. <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>3) When transporting or temporarily storing in a vehicle, temperature range should be greater than 20 degrees F but no more than 150 degrees F.
• 4) Storing battery at temperatures greater than 170 degrees F for extended periods of time (more than 2 hours) may cause damage to battery and possible fire.

Caring for Battery

• <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>1) Charge battery with good quality Lithium Polymer charger. A poor quality charger can be dangerous. <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>2) Set voltage and current correctly (failure to do so can cause fire). <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>3) Please check cell voltage after the first charge. <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>Example 1-Cell: 4.2V (4.15 to 4.22) <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>2-Cell: 8.4V (8.32 to 8.44) <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>3-Cell: 12.6V (12.48 to 12.66) <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>4-Cell: 16.8V (16.64 to 16.88) <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>5-Cell: 18.5V (18.30 to 18.60) <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>4) Do not discharge battery to a level below 3V per cell under load. Deep discharge below 3V per cell can deteriorate battery performance. <LI style="TEXT-JUSTIFY: inter-ideograph; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none" class=MsoNormal>5) Use caution to avoid puncture of the cell. Puncture of cells may cause a fire.
• 6) Charging the battery every 2 months to keep it fresh if you don't use it.

Operating Charging Temperature:
32 to 113 degree F
Discharge: 32 to 140 degree F
1) Let battery cool down to an ambient temperature before charging.
2) During discharge and handling of batteries, do not exceed 160 degree F.

Battery Life
Batteries that lose 20% of their capacity must be removed from service and disposed of properly. Discharge the battery to 3V/Cell, making sure output wires are insulated, then wrap battery in a bag for disposal.

Product Warranty
Product warranty is limited to original defects in material and workmanship. Warranty does not cover collateral damage. Due Misuse, abuse, incorrect charging and other inappropriate use of this product are not covered under warranty.

here is a link to the page:

Warnings for Using Batteries

I don't know whether or not we might end up having to review and certify our understanding of such information before purchasing kits and spares in the future or not. It would make sense from a liability standpoint for suppliers since this stuff is NOT the safest thing in the hands of even informed populace in general.
I am going to find and list a link that really alarmed me, that lists a poll of fires among the membership of just ONE hobbyist site. Watch for another post to follow this one.

 

[deewal]

I thought this thread was supposed to be about the Nazi Banzhaf and his latest article in "Die Sturmer" ?

Can nobody who represents us stand up against this man and have him made accountable for his Lies ?

My Doorbell has a Lithium Polymer Battery. I bought it in Tesco's. It's irrelevant to the case of this Fascist Hate Monger.

 

[unknwn]

Here is an excerpt of info regarding lithium ion fires gleaned from the posts at this particular hobbyist site. First will be the link. Anyone interested (and you should all have SOME measure of interest) should read the guide about Lithium ION batteries that is the beginning several posts.

There is a lot of reading (pages and pages) under the heading, and much good information about reasonable safety precautions that these experienced users have developed. It will surprise me if 1/100th of the e-cig communty would be willing to go to the measures that these people realize as neccessary for adequate safety.

You might say, what has al this got to do with the original post about insurance in our community. I tend to think it is fairly parralel.

If our suppliers are finding any kinds of problems obtaining satifactory insurance coverage for the goods they are marketing, the ones who are willing to continue will undoubtably be forced to push liability release agreements to allow sales.
The problem with such an agreement is that it will only stop or slow someone who understands that a liability release is only effective when the complaintent doesn't realize that the release is worthless,
in other words: it will only stop someone who doesn;t know any better.

To simply look at this list many will say, "oh, so many of those reports are from damaged units" - but close inspection reveals MANY are not from damage, or result from routine charging or are otherwise unexplainable.

Scary stuff.


Complete Guide to Lithium Polymer Batteries and LiPo Failure Reports - RC Groups

The listing does not include any of the many 'ballooning only' reports.

FIRE DURING CHARGING:
Operator Error-
9s pack catches fire while being charged at 10s setting. (9)
2s pack catches fire being charged as 3s (10)
2s pack catches fire when charged at 3s setting (13)
2s pack catches fire in plane while charging at 3s setting. (22)
3s pack charged at 4s voltage ignites (27)
2s pack catches fire charged at 3s (30)
2s pack ignites when charged at 10.2V (31)
Overcharged battery (34)
2s pack charged at 11.1V catches fire. (36)
2s pack charged at 3s setting (40)
2s pack charges at 11.1V burns – (44)
2s charged at 11.2V goes off in garage – (47)
2s charged at 3s voltage ignites in garage – (49)
2s charged at 3s ignites in workshop – (52)
Another count problem – Heli burns (57)
Cell count error caused fire – (61, 62)
Pack charged on NiCd setting - (66)
Run Down pack catches fire during charge – (71)
LiPo Burns during charge on 109 charger after mode mis-set (82)
Charging slightly swelled pack causes fire (86)
Li-Ion cells catch fire from charger setting error (88)
Cell catches fire during attempt to repeak - (91)
Charging puffed cell causes it to ignite – (93)
Lipo burns during attempt to restore overdischarged cell with CC/CV PS (94)
Pack ignites during charging – smoke corrodes shed and contents (98)
Possible damaged pack burns like rocket in can – (100)
Attempt to recharge dead lipo causes plane fire (103)
Charging probably fully charged 3s pack with Astro 109 result in pack ignition. (104)
2s charged as 3s ignites in safe (109)
Restart of charger resulted in wrong charge mode – (113)
Wrong charger settings burns 2 packs – (112)
LiPo burns in modelers hand after charging - (115)
Charging slightly puffed cell causes fire, plane burns (117)
Using NiCd setting causes LiPo fire. Owner forgot to switch over to LiPo setting during charge cycle (118)
Charger set on 4 cells with 3 cell pack (126)
Garage fire during charging (127)
Modeler reports 2 lipo fires from wrong cell count (129)
Lipo charged on NiCd setting ignites (130)
Auto cell count charger fire – (131)
5s2p4000 packs ignites on first charge (133)
Overvoltage charge ignition – (135)
Lipo ignites during charge causing house fire – possible charger setting error. (139).
Too high charge rate burns battery (142)
3s charged as 4s 109 with pictures of burn: (144)
3s charged as 4s burns SUV (Schulze 6-330d) (146)
Garage Burns – balancer used - (162)
Garage Burns during charging – complete loss - (163)

Undetermined Cause While Charging
Fire damages garage while charging pack. (7)
1500 3s pack catches fire during 1A , 11.1V initial charge. (1)
2 cell pack ignites while being charged with 2 cell charger. (11)
Car burns when pack being charged in car catches fire. (24)
2s2p pack catches fire in helicopter – possible that charger misread # of cells. (25)
2s pack ignites while on charger set for 2s. (28)
$30,000 damage to house when pack ignites during charging. (no details) (43)
3s pack burns in garage – (35)
3s pack burns at correct settings- (41)
3s pack burns at correct charger settings – (46)
3s 8000mah pack catches fire after 15min – correct settings – (53)
Helicopter and pack burns after 15min charge – (54)
Automatic cell count charger – pack catches fire (55)
Automatic cell count charger – pack catches fire (56)
Lipo rockets across room (58)
Automatic cell count charger – Lipos burn in garage (59)
Battery ignites in car seat during charging (63)
Damaged battery ignites during charge (67)
Pack balloons during charge, burns while under water (68)
11s3p pack burns during charging at correct parameters (70)
Another charging fire – (72)
Helicopter burns when LiPo ignites during charge (73)
Undetermined cause to LiPo fire during charge – (74)
Chopper burns from charging LiPo fire (76)
House fire (81)
3s Pack Ignites burning front of car during charge at correct settings. (83)
Helicopter in garage burns while charging (106)
Well used Lipo ignites under correct charging parameters (107)
SUV Vehicle burns (114)
Garage burns during charging – (119) Extensive pictures
2 fiires in 2 weeks (120)
Charging battery in plane fire with 109 – posts 97&99 (121)
Charging 3000mah with Triton catches fire in garage- (122)
Pack in plane ignites while being charged under hood of truck (123)
Fire in Basement – (136)
Lipo catches fire during charging and continues to burn in salt water (138)
Lipo charging in Helicopter ignites burning carpet, drapes and Heli (141)
Lipo charging on hood catches fire - (147)
Lipo charged on correct settings ignites (148)
Lipo fire during charging burns house. (150)
A123 pack burns(?) (152)
Possible charger failure causes lipo fire – (157)
House Fire – Cause not determined yet – (158)
Lipo in back of SUV ignites while charging – (159)
5 packs burn during charging – (165)
Battery on charger with balancer ignites (166)
Another battery on a balancing charger ignites (167)
Pack on charger causes workshop fire (169)
Very new pack with GWS CP -LP charger ignites (170)
Pack puffs on charger – taken outside where it ignites (171)
Pack gets hot on charger, ignites outside (172)

FIRE FROM PACK DAMAGE:
Cell poked with exacto knife catches fire- (2)
Dog bites pack, pack catches fire (4)
Lexus burns after pack from crashed plane put in car. (8)
Ballooned pack ignites when punctured. (20)
Repaired pack catches fire when connected to plane. (29)
Pack catches fire after plane crashes. (37)
Pack cut while shrink wrapping (39)
Pack punctured during crash burns. (64)
Plane crashes, pack removed and 10 minutes later burns (65)
Battery pack at 1V ignites while charging (71)
Puffed pack ignites during charging – (77)
Puffed Pack smokes when punctured (79)
Nicked pack catches fire (87)
Plane crashes, battery catches fire (89)
Damaged pack catches fire – (90)
Dog chews pack, chars pillow and smokes house - (95)
Battery compartment screw penetrates pack causing loss of plane (102)
Pack balloons dring mischarge, ignites when punchured (108)
Pack ignites 20 min after Heli crash – (111)\
Nicked pack “explodes in modelers hand” (116)
Intentionally punctured LiPo burns (124)
Dented Heli pack burns i min after disconnecting- (137)
Poked Lipo burst into flame (140)
Lipo Shorted for 4 sec. 3 min later it burns (143)
Lipo catches fire after crash damage. (149)
Punctured lipo catches fire – (151)
Crash causes fire – (154)
Damaged pack catches fire in flight – (156)
Dog bite shorts pack – (161)
Lid of charging container pinches battery leads and ignites (168)
Dropped pack catches fire minutes later (173)

BATTERY SHORTED FIRES:
Shorted pack catches fire (26)
Pack burns after shorting (15)
Possible Short (38)
Shorted when moved on table – (42)
Pack Shorted putting connector on and burns – (45)
Shorted pack burns hole in BMW seat – (48)
Crash causes 3s pack to short and burn – (50)
Pack ignites sometime after connector shorted for a short time (85)
Lipo Shorted for 4 sec. 3 min later it burns (143)


CAUSE UNDETERMINED:
Multi cell pack catches fire in flight (5)
Possible over discharge (33)
Lipo pack catches fire in car (60)
2s pack starts house fire (84)
In flight F3A fire reported (92)
New pack partially burns sitting on desk (96)
Pack ignites with no known cause (97)
Pack ignites after soldering wires on (101)
Pack catches fire in pick up truck (105)
In Air ignition – (125)
Pack ignites in pocket (132)
Pack ignites in car at 3AM (134)
Undamaged pack starts to burn in car – (145)
Unconnected Pack sitting on bench burns over night – (153)
In Flight Fire – (155)
Pack ignites 2 hrs after charging – not connected to anything. (160)
Unused, uncharged pack without connectors catches fire – (164)
Lipo catches fire for no apparent reason (174)
Plane lands after short flight, battery disconnected, battery ignites shortly after (175)


OTHER
2s pack connected in series with 3s pack ignites in fireball (78)
Lipo burns garage (99)
Packs used in parallel catch fire in flight (110)
Too high current draw causes fire (128)

 

[Sun Vaporer]

I thought this thread was supposed to be about the Nazi Banzhaf and his latest article in "Die Sturmer" ?

Can nobody who represents us stand up against this man and have him made accountable for his Lies ?

Deewal---He may be all vape now, but Banzhaf did call it right back in the 1970's when he called out the tobacco industry on "light" cigarettes, which sold a lot of people out including me, so he is not all smoke----rather he is all vape when it comes to the e-cig.


Sun

 

[unknwn]

This thread originates with tha Nazi ASH director taking a new tact in a battle against the sellers of our much needed supplies, using the question of insurance as ammunition for his warfare.
If he is remotely correct (and lets all hope that isn't the case) and insurance coverage for this product family is not available or is inadequate, then we have a problem that should at least be comtemplated.

I am trying to show that the base technology is something that requires a consumer to be educated about. You can't just throw this stuff in a drawer and forget about it.
And this information should be upfront and readily available to consumers so that they can take appropriate steps to safely utilize this stuff.

Last week's smoky fire aboard a cargo plane was a warning. If something bad happens there is absolutely nothing any number of us screaming about wanting access to our PV supplies is going to help get it back after it is taken from our mits.
The oft chance that some litigous person would try to blame whatever type of health injury on the product group will be problematic and make BIG news if a lack of insurance coverage is part of the story.

I may have pushed an "alarmist" viewpoint by posting this info, but we live in the real world, and I know that at least in the USA, lawsuititis is a very rampant affliction.

Many a wiser person than I has told me " more information is good " "You can't hide your head in the sand" "forewarned is forearmed" - I hope you get the picture.

 

[ladyraj]

Unknwn, thank you for the info supplied. Let me assure you that as a radio repair tech in the USAF for the special forces years ago we were aware of the potential problems with batteries. The batts were still humped in all kinds of temperature extremes as well as C-130s and helicopters. They've been exposed to extreme altitudes and accompanied parachute drops (Halo and Haho) as well as dropped enmass on pallets to supply those in the field. We have not lost anyone to date from battery problems, fires, explosions, etc. I did come across a radio or two that got lost in cargo in which leakage occurred but I still managed to resurrect the radio. The limited liability with batteries are to protect the manufacturer when the long list of precautions are ignored....and they are always ignored.

 

[chad]

You can't just throw this stuff in a drawer and forget about it.

Well, most of it you can actually. Li-ion and LiPo batteries are in use everywhere and can be safely stored and actually have a long shelf-life.

I thought this thread was supposed to be about the Nazi Banzhaf and his latest article in "Die Sturmer" ?

Now, onto the topic at hand, ASH-hat is a crap-head and 98% (except the lucky 2% about light cigarettes) of what he spews is pure feces. I can't believe anyone listens to him ever. Never have I seen a man in the public eye who so wantonly manipulates reality into somehow being all about himself. He's ego-maniacal and I'm pretty sure he suffers from a fully-blown superiority complex. I wonder if he's married because it's got to be damn hard to live with a person like that.

 

[grimmer255]

jeeesh I never store my batteries together. i always have by batteries stored separate and away from anything flammable.

I remember the huge battery packs in the army for radios. There were if I remember correctly two separate compartments. the first was metal box with a connector which house the batterries....second was a compartment for the metal box that had a slot for the connector pins. Then that compartment was closed up and locked......crazy I know

 

[ladyraj]

Hey Grimmer, your radio was water-proof and shock proof for rugged forays. We had a secure voice sat radio that was shielded X2 and would function safely in the rain or sandstorms.

 

[jigtg]

markarich159, most chargers now available are usb chargers which cannot catch fire. unknwn, most li-ion cells in e-cigs are rated around 200 mAh which cannot catch fire. They just don't have the energy capacity and cannot discharge fast enough. Li-po packs you are refering to are specially designed to discharge at a rate of at least 300 watts. Li-ion cells cannot even be manufactured to discharge at that rate. This comparison makes no sense at all. Bigger batteries come with protective circuits. Suppliers are not liable for customers own mods etc. Also these chargers are being made to respective standards. For everything else, it is suppliers job to write an appropriate disclaimer to protect their business. Banzhaf, no county has yet banned their use wherever conventional smoking is prohibited - it will take some 6 months before the ban becomes effective. Getting sloppy, be careful..

 

[DC2]

The bigger they are the harder they fall, and this guy is getting way too big in his own mind.

Don't get me wrong, as we should not downplay his power, which he has plenty of right now.
And has a lot of pull as well, in many circles where money flows.

But he is setting himself up for someone to take him down hard.

He is ****ing with the wrong people this time.
We are fighting for our lives, and we will be the ones that finally take this guy down.

Count on it.

 

[SMILIN]

Lacey--anyone that sells a product usually has Products Liabitlty Insurance ---if they do not, they leave themselfs wide open to litigation should someone get hurt by the product.


Sun

Amen brother

 

[markarich159]

markarich159, most chargers now available are usb chargers which cannot catch fire. unknwn, most li-ion cells in e-cigs are rated around 200 mAh which cannot catch fire. They just don't have the energy capacity and cannot discharge fast enough. Li-po packs you are refering to are specially designed to discharge at a rate of at least 300 watts. Li-ion cells cannot even be manufactured to discharge at that rate. This comparison makes no sense at all. Bigger batteries come with protective circuits. Suppliers are not liable for customers own mods etc. Also these chargers are being made to respective standards. For everything else, it is suppliers job to write an appropriate disclaimer to protect their business. Banzhaf, no county has yet banned their use wherever conventional smoking is prohibited - it will take some 6 months before the ban becomes effective. Getting sloppy, be careful..

I'm not the person supplying all the info about the Li batteries(although after reading the info it makes me wonder even more). My initial point is that ANY BUSINESS(from a doughnut shop to a internet XXX .........) that does not carry liability insurance is taking their future in their own hands. The fact that, apparently, no ecig supplier can obtain liabilty insurance is, at the very least, worrisome. All it takes is one supplier getting sued(over something stupid and frivolous) and losing everything, to make all the other sellers think twice about continuing on.

 

[jigtg]

One should not consider buying an insurance based on emotional grounds but instead based on a risk analysis done by someone not working for the insurance company.

 

[markarich159]

One should not consider buying an insurance based on emotional grounds but instead based on a risk analysis done by someone not working for the insurance company.

If that's the way you feel, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. But here in America(and I would assume most other places) having liability insurance isn't an emotional decision and it isn't a convenient option, it's THE only prudent, correct business choice. For God's sake, people will literally sue over their Chicken McNuggets being to cold. In short, if you own a business and sell ANYTHING, there is risk(and you don't need an insurance actuary to inform you of this). You get sued(again frivolous or not) and have no liabilty insurance, you're done, period, end of story.

 

[PlanetScribbles]

I'm sitting back watching the destruction of a slimebag lawyer. Eventually he will destroy his credibility and then, bye bye ASH. Looking forward to that day indeed.

All Banzhoff is is another scurrying little cockroach on a power trip, I will have a vape party on the day that someone takes this vermin down.
He chose the wrong people to mess with, ie. People that KNOW they are in the right. He can lie and distort the truth as much as he wants, but the truth will shine through at the end of it.