Sleazy propaganda re diacetyl in e-cigs

[ST Dog]

The concept of natural rights requires no action from others, other than to not interfere with another person's life (the basis of the idea of laisseze faire - let them do - leave them alone).

100% agreement.

And any attempt to treat rights otherwise leads to the crap we have now.

And agree that Wickard v. Filmore is one of 'The Dirty Dozen' decisions that changed the face of the Constitution. See:Robert Levy and William Mellor's book by that name that listed the 12 worst Supreme Court decisions which tells much the story, in terms of bad court decisions, of how we got where we are today.

Added to my reading list. Amazon.com: The Dirty Dozen: How Twelve Supreme Court Cases Radically Expanded Government and Eroded Freedom, With a New Preface (9781935308270): Robert Levy, William Mellor: Books

I probably know all 12 already, but always good to find new insights.

 

[ST Dog]

We disagree on this. If wanting to explore further in PM, I'm game. The quibble is minor, but I stand by the idea that "should" equals "desire for regulation." That desire can change simply by changing the word (i.e. to could instead).

No need as I think you see my point.

However it reminds me of the "voluntary" nature of the US income tax system.

If you need to know, I would suggest you do your own testing. If not willing to do this, please explain why.

I don't (I only use tobacco flavors which have little need for the taste profile provided by diketones ), but my point is that to make an truly informed choice that's what would be needed.

The nicotine comparison is not legit as it's practically impossible to OD on nicotine by vaping, and no long term ill effects are know from consumption (all prior studies I've seen involve burning tobacco not just nicotine).

Do you think alcohol makers ought to be presenting percentages of all chemical components in their products? Or just the ones that some (rather vocal) groups wish for the companies to display?

If there was a common additive, used in large enough quantities, implicated in health issues after long term consumption, then yes it might make sense to state the amount. I know of nothing in common use that meets that description other than alcohol it's self.

But look at the problems with acetaminophen. Low dosages scattered i many products often used together that lead to excessive dosages.

Also, just want to note that what you are asking for, the FDA can provide.

I would rather see the industry do it on their own. It doesn't take 100% compliance. Consumers can choose vendors that disclose if they are concerned and avoid those that do not. In time, I expect market pressure to obtain near 100% compliance without requiring government intervention. Many will remove diketones completely due to market pressure, a small group will keep some products, and a few will "prey" on ignorance and apathy.

I hope at the same time to see research into the effects and better safe dosage levels determined. Perhaps at some point the research will show that higher levels are safe and not worth mentioning. Or we will know enough to warrant complete removal.

At this point we don't know, but an outright ban potentially harms those that would be more successful with the flavors provided.

It wouldn't be the first time poor science caused something to not be used leading to greater harm than they attempted to prevent. (See malaria and DDT)

 

[ST Dog]

Popcorn lung doesnt develop or show symptoms overnight or over a few years...

Have to look back when I get to my computer, but I thought the article that started this thread claimed symptoms in a short time.

"Emanuel Diaz de Leon ... in 2009 ... returned to the United States ... Diaz de Leon was 39 at the time ... he immediately set out to find work ... Within weeks he was hired at Distant Lands Coffee ...
In May 2010, he was promoted. He would work in the flavor room...
Within 18 months, Diaz de Leon's lungs were shot."

"Julysabel Cerda knew something was wrong ... It was 2008, and she had been working at Distant Lands Coffee for about a year.
After a year of tests and misdiagnoses, doctors finally ordered a lung biopsy. The result: bronchiolitis obliterans. A case so severe, doctors said she would need a lung transplant to survive."

So, the article claims 18 months or less.

From a linked article http://www.jsonline.com/features/29210104.html
"35-year-old Milwaukee man had been working at a local flavoring plant for just six months"

 

[stevegmu]

"Emanuel Diaz de Leon ... in 2009 ... returned to the United States ... Diaz de Leon was 39 at the time ... he immediately set out to find work ... Within weeks he was hired at Distant Lands Coffee ...
In May 2010, he was promoted. He would work in the flavor room...
Within 18 months, Diaz de Leon's lungs were shot."

"Julysabel Cerda knew something was wrong ... It was 2008, and she had been working at Distant Lands Coffee for about a year.
After a year of tests and misdiagnoses, doctors finally ordered a lung biopsy. The result: bronchiolitis obliterans. A case so severe, doctors said she would need a lung transplant to survive."

So, the article claims 18 months or less.

From a linked article Struggling for air
"35-year-old Milwaukee man had been working at a local flavoring plant for just six months"

I wasn't aware one case sets an example; in anything...

 

[Danie06]

However, it must be observed that I have enjoyed the sweet, densely-flavored juices far more than I did the Virginia I vaped at first, to replace my Slims. I started trying out the sweet flavors when I was in the process of my 2nd quit, trying as hard as I could to get back to smoke-free, and Icey Pineapple and Blueberry Muffin helped me achieve it, and once I got used to vaping those sweet, rich flavors, I no longer liked the Virginia at all. I put some of the Virginia in a carto this week, when I wanted something *not sweet*... and the best thing that can be said for it is that it sure makes me appreciate my Blueberry Muffin, Strawberries and Cream, and Smoky Cappucino! So, in short, I think that *trying* for lower flavoring is probably a worthy goal, but it can reach a point of diminishing returns -- if you take the flavoring so low that you enjoy it less, it might put one (one like me!) at some risk for smoking relapse.

In that case vaping heavy flavoured liquid would have my preference too.
I personally enjoy lighter flavoured liquids more, but if youre really at a risk to start smoking again there's no doubt in my mind thats a much bigger evil.
We can debate/ research ways to make vaping better/ healthier, I'm all for that, but in the meantime theres no doubt in my mind its still a ton better than smoking, since we know we dont inhale all the tar and carcinogen substances anymore.

 

[caramel]

I wasn't aware one case sets an example; in anything...

You may want to get some additional training with counting.

 

[Moonbogg]

I'm pretty sure the future of vaping (if there even is one) will be a diketone free future. Enjoy those yummy diketone vapes while they last. It bothers me personally. I don't want that crap in my lungs at all.

 

[caramel]

I hope there will be (informed) choice. If someone is brave enough to try something (known to be) dangerous who am I to tell him otherwise?

 

[ST Dog]

I wasn't aware one case sets an example; in anything...

Count again. I quoted 3 case with 18 months exposure or less.

 

[stevegmu]

Count again. I quoted 3 case with 18 months exposure or less.

So 3 cases sets a standard?

I've read a number of posts on here by people who have similar symptoms...

 

[caramel]

3 is more than enough. As we already know, it doesn't take more than 1 shill to derail a thread.

 

[DaveP]

Most of what I vape are clear liquids that mimic a mild tobacco flavor. I tend to steer away from dark, murky juices or anything that contains more than 50%VG, mostly for atomizer coil gunking, but I also notice a slight heavy lung feeling from 100% VG juices that goes away when I switch back to 80pg/20vg. It's a feeling that I need to take a deep breath here and there.

I use two main vendors, both of which state no diacetyl and one of those is Dekang. Both offer statements in their FAQ that they are diacetyl free. I have to trust that they have had their juices tested and proved to be diacetyl free. I'm becoming more and more wary about diacetyl and l look for the statements on websites before ordering juice. You have to wonder with mom and pop vendors, whether they are going by their supplier's statements or actually having samples tested for proof.

Having vaped daily for about 5 years you'd think that I'd have symptoms if there was something detrimental in my juice. My lungs feel better after not smoking for over three years. I went from 2 PAD to 6 cigs a day the first week I vaped and quit completely after two years vaping. Now, I can do 140 assorted reps a day with a curl bar and ride 6 miles on my exercise bike at high resistance levels and maintain 98% oxygen saturation on my pulse oximeter.

Dekang's purity statement is here.
FAQ

 

[skoony]

"Emanuel Diaz de Leon ... in 2009 ... returned to the United States ... Diaz de Leon was 39 at the time ... he immediately set out to find work ... Within weeks he was hired at Distant Lands Coffee ...
In May 2010, he was promoted. He would work in the flavor room...
Within 18 months, Diaz de Leon's lungs were shot."

"Julysabel Cerda knew something was wrong ... It was 2008, and she had been working at Distant Lands Coffee for about a year.
After a year of tests and misdiagnoses, doctors finally ordered a lung biopsy. The result: bronchiolitis obliterans. A case so severe, doctors said she would need a lung transplant to survive."

So, the article claims 18 months or less.

From a linked article Struggling for air
"35-year-old Milwaukee man had been working at a local flavoring plant for just six months"

and here lies the problem.where on earth are all the missing
millions of people that should have popcorn lung?
regards
mike

 

[skoony]

So 3 cases sets a standard?

I've read a number of posts on here by people who have similar symptoms...

i haven't. Andria doesn't count.
nor anyone else with a pre-existing condition.
mike

 

[stevegmu]

If 3 cases set a medical precedent, it is obvious everyone who inhales diketones will either get popcorn lung, or have popcorn lung and be misdiagnosed with COPD, asthma or other bronchial/pulmonary diseases...

 

[caramel]

For establishing statistical significance you have to report to the total number of cases. Would you like to count them for us?

 

[ST Dog]

and here lies the problem.where on earth are all the missing
millions of people that should have popcorn lung?
regards
mike

I was wondering the same thing.
Shouldn't everY nonsmoker in the plant have it by now?

 

[ST Dog]

So 3 cases sets a standard?

No, but all three fly in the face against the "it takes years to know" arguments.

Given those examples there should be 1000s of vapers with it from all the DA consumed prior to it getting much attention.

 

[stevegmu]

I was wondering the same thing.
Shouldn't ever nonsmoker in the plant have it by now?

By that rationale, if 1 smoker gets lung cancer attributed to smoking, then every smoker should get lung cancer...

 

[stevegmu]

No, but all three fly in the face against the "it takes years to know" arguments.

Given those examples there should be 1000s of vapers with it from all the DA consumed prior to it getting much attention.

Did you read the link I posted which says it takes time to develop? I don't think anyone really knows how long it takes. Everyone is different. As has been reported, many cases were probably just called COPD...