So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[DVap]

I've been discussing a new pet theory with a few of the more technical folks. I suspect that the problem some people have with ecigs is that the tobacco has been over-processed down to just nicotine.

Imagine a tobacco extraction that instead of purifying to just nicotine, purifies to the tobacco alkaloids. All the thousands of extra chemicals are gone, but all the alkaloids (including presumably the MAIO's) remain. This might mix down with PG to a vaping liquid to be reckoned with.

While I can produce such a thing, I have no need to do it personally since plain nicotine works for me. I'd have a hard time offering a sample of such a liquid to somebody who isn't getting satisfaction from ecigs since I would be effectively asking that person to be a guinea pig, so the whole things runs afoul of my notion of responsibility, professionalism, and you name it... but again, I suspect such a "minimally processed" liquid might be quite effective.

 

[WillyB]

One thing I see with many topics of this type is no mention of which e-cig is being used. Are they all the same? Will the effects of a rather low voltage M401 (I've never seen my so called fully charged bats even hit 3V) be the same as 'hotter' 510's or 6V mods?

We see from the various posts some think there's plenty of nic while others disagree. If folks had mentioned which e-cig they were using maybe a pattern would have developed.

As a 3 pack a day smoker (generic lights) when I first got my M401, using Dekang 24mg juice, by the time I ran through my first battery I was buzzed... plain and simple.

When comparing nic amounts to analogs I believe this should also be taken into consideration:

Significance of ammonium compounds on nicotine exposure to cigarette smokers

The present review focuses on the hypothesis that addition of ammonium compounds to tobacco enhances global tobacco use due to smoke alkalization and enhanced free-nicotine nicotine exposure. Obviously, ammonia enhances the alkalinity of tobacco smoke. Consequently, the equilibrium shifts from non-volatile nicotine salts to the volatile free base that is more readily absorbed from the airways.

 

[Vaporer]

Stubby,
My bad. I missed something between failing with the PV and no answer found.
If snus and nasal snuff do it for you ....great! The PV does not have to be in the sole answer of success or even part of it. Actually, it's quite interesting.

DVap, a few posts back I came to the same theory that as the nic is reduced to a purer level, other things in raw tobacco have to be getting removed. I read the govs reports and the links you posted and they do have this gwad awful myopic thing about it being ALL about the nicotine. To many stories, examples and successes on this forum alone to believe that. The "Nicotine Tree" is developing some strong branching roots.

I recently upped my nic levels to 36mg from 18-24mg. Helped a little , not much. Still missing and I was having repeated hiccups, the uncomfortable throat/chest feeling and still wanting to vape. A clear indication of to much nicotine.
I cut that batch back down to 18mg and noticed very little, except the new symptoms disappeared. Started today off reading here and used the snus with my initial daily vape.
Continued this today and have vaped abt 1/4-1/2 my norm of vaping.

I think flavor has a lot to input here too. Maybe not as heavy, but for 40 yrs I smoked menthols weening down to ultra light menthol. Menthol was the 1st thing I did to change my vape. I missed it. The snus I prefer and work the best are mint, ice, wintergreen another pattern forming. Mint it 75% menthol. hmmmmmm
I can vape orange, but I perfer and do much better with tobacco flavors.

The brain is such a complex thing.

 

[Vaporer]

Willy,

I think with whtat you have said you'd enjoy reading DVap's thread
"Any interest in determining nicotine--by DVAP"
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...erest-determining-nicotine-dvap-new-post.html
You'll find a lot of answers , explainations and information there. Its not a short one but near its present end pH and other factors are discussed.

Check it out if you haven't.

 

[kinabaloo]

DVap - this 'all the alkaloids' e-liquid idea has been staring us in the face for so long; duh, why didn't we think of that! But now you have recognised a solution - and it has great promise ...

Thinking about it, one would imagine that separating the alkaloids, though not easy, could be less difficult than separating one alkaloid from the others. So it should certainly be feasible and might well be a major advance for a more widely effective e-liquid.

 

[kinabaloo]

It;s possible that there would be a correlation between smokers of lights / those who inhaled little or only into the mouth and success with e-cigs, because either their intake would have been skewed more to nicotine or the overall amounts being smaller made the other alkaloids / MAOIs unimportant, or that as only a minimal effect was sought, nic alone is sufficient. Hence heavier smokers are, I imagine more dependent on the other alkaloids.

There will be some who are outside of this relationship of course, because also likely is individual differences in need for nic versus the others alkaloids, and this can hold regardless of actual dose required.

I for one would certainly like to try the new wholemeal juice, rather than the 'white bread' ...

It makes perfect sense. I've been used to green but now I only have yellow. I want some blue in there.

 

[kinabaloo]

Vaporer - I find I often get hiccups when i get e-liquid in my mouth, even though I spit it out. Good to hear it's not just me!

Perhaps this is caused by sudden stimulation of the nicotinic receptors on the vagus or phrenic nerves that run to the diaphragm (which actually does the convulsing).

 

[DVap]

Lol kin, if I made some "whole alkaloid 36 mg juice", and ended up sending some to you, It would be labeled prominently "For laboratory use only, not intended for consumption"

On another note, I've gone ahead and re-summarized my thoughts from this thread in a blog posted titled "Everything I think I know about vaping vs analogs"

 

[kinabaloo]

Sidetracked for an hour or two by the thought of a databse of xml formatted e-liquid recipes with an ajax front end ...

Was thinking that MAOIs boosting the effect of the nic may only be part of the story of the other alkaloids. I can't be sure, at all, but have a feeling that nic alone is more stimulating, and the other alkaloids, while boosting that stimulation, also have a calming effect (beyond just satiating the rollercoaster craving).

If any sample arrived at the lab here, I'd endaevor to do a proper blind study. In fact, if two indentical looking samples arrived marked simply A and B, I'll see if they are any different in effect and which is 'best', if that can be determined. But then you can do this on yourself, gf or whoever locally.

Will have a read of your blog entry ...

kina

Lol kin, if I made some "whole alkaloid 36 mg juice", and ended up sending some to you, It would be labeled prominently "For laboratory use only, not intended for consumption"

On another note, I've gone ahead and re-summarized my thoughts from this thread in a blog posted titled "Everything I think I know about vaping vs analogs"

 

[LameBMX]

It makes perfect sense. I've been used to green but now I only have yellow. I want some blue in there.

Well if you happen to want green and have blue, I can provide some yellow!

 

[kinabaloo]

re DVap's blog: The gamma carboline is a likely candidate, yes. Besides MAOI effect boosting nic, might be some calming alkaloids too; didn't see any info in this regard on my googling as yet. But confirmed something I feared - many alkaloids are larger molecules than nic - gamma carboline for example has a bp appraoching 400C. Of course it will be in a mixture so may still be vaporised to a significant extent (hopefully similarly in extent to combusted tobacco.

Further to my last post, I have mentioned before how tea manages to comine stimulation and relaxation (theanine, and maybe others). I have 70mg liquid right next to me, but never been tempted to try it (I will though for the important experience); not because i think it's dangerous, just feel it will not work for me (though i need to try to be sure).

~~~

ps: Given the modes and focii of action of many alkaloids such as gamma carboline, wonder if there is a connection between the alt-alkoloid seekers and being 'night owls' ...

(there is a connection with melatonin)

 

[Vaporer]

Kin,

I was one of the ultra light smokers , but I drew for all it was worth and drew it deep.
If you ar eclose to your normal nic levels, I can see a little extra in the mough causing the hiccups. Odd reaction, but sure effective and noted. It usually comes with that knot/tightness in the back of the throat, so I'd say you are right on the convulsiveness type aspect.
Today went well.......less than 1/2 my normal vape. Used 4-5 snus and just left them in till whenever. Some were in a couple hrs. I'll roll them lightly with my teeth and pop it back into place. I feel it needs mixed a little. lol
Vape that 70mg and if a little juice makes you cup, I bet it surely will.
Nicotine seems to be the big wave and the rest appear to be the little annoying ripples that dig at your system. Like that itch you can't sctatch.

Just thought of something. When I've had the snus in for 15-20 min and then vaped the 36mg. The hiccups start within 1-3 min. Since the snus was in 1st with the nic on blood levels, that would lead to believe that vape adsorbtion does take place faster than I had thought. Soooo...the constant vaping part is taking the nic levels ok and we are just chasing the cat for the rest thats not in the purified nic of eliquid.

Off to read the blog.............

 

[DVap]

ps: Given the modes and focii of action of many alkaloids such as gamma carboline, wonder if there is a connection between the alt-alkoloid seekers and being 'night owls' ...

Heh.. I've met a few folks who never met an alkaloid they didn't like. Some of them aren't with us anymore.

 

[frankie1]

I am one of the ones that haven't quit smoking yet because there is "something missing". I am now and have always been a "night owl". I can be so sleepy that I can't stand it in the afternoon, early evening and as the night progresses the more wide awake I become. I have always taken what I call power naps....15 minutes tops and I am wide awake even with little to no sleep the previous night. Do the two relate, in your opinion? I am trying to keep up here, but you guys are way over my head!!

 

[frankie1]

DVap: I have visited your blog and it is a very good read. The information is clear and easy to understand...well as easy as you can make it for the scientifically challenged LOL

 

[frankie1]

Oh I should have said....like me ^^^^^

 

[frankie1]

I googled calming alkaloids and found out a bit about them:

1. Some are used to treat IBS, which might account for the many who report constipation in the early days of vaping

2. The withdrawal from the Belladona alkaloids produces the exact symptoms I am experiencing in my efforts

3. Over time doesn't work as well

4. "Along with its benefits, this medication may rarely cause abnormal drug-seeking behavior (addiction)."

source: Phenobarb-Belladonna Alkaloids Oral : Uses, Side Effects, Interactions, Pictures, Warnings & Dosing - WebMD

Hmm wonder if these are in cigarettes and how much we have been inhaling. I wonder if the amount we get from cigarettes is sufficient to create the above effects.

 

[frankie1]

From the same source:

Antacids lower the absorption of this medication. If you are taking an antacid, take it at least 2 hours apart from this medication.

And if not extended release form, should be taken 3-4 times a day.

Could these alkaloids explain why those most heavily addicted to cigarettes continue to smoke, albeit weaning themselves totally, while those who have not smoked as long make the switch more easily?

I am sure some of you are already aware of this information, but those of us who are less familiar with the pharmacology aspect of smoking would really appreciate your input into this...or at least I would, because I am struggling here! I am trying to learn how to quit.

Thanks

 

[olderthandirt]

From the same source:
...appreciate your input into this...or at least I would, because I am struggling here! I am trying to learn how to quit.

Thanks

Good morning frankie
You mentioned earlier you were going to try some snus you had. How did that go?

 

[kinabaloo]

frankie1 - just thinking aloud. It is known that the two types of people - larks and owls - exist because of differences in the length of day of the body block being a bit longer or shorter than 24 hours. So probably not related to biochemical imbalance as causal, but just might be some connection that relates to 'self-medication' with various alkaloids.

Nicotine constitutes about 90-95% of the alkaloids in tobacco (not completely sure if this figure includes all nicotine-like alkaloids or just nicotine). So if there are others that are important, they would need to be quite powerful given their small quantities. The next three most common ones are nornicotine (~2.5%+?) and anatabine (~0.2%-4% depending who you ask; TRC | Search Results and anabasine; so the remainder would be in (very) small quantities.

http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=p08101327vt767xg&size=largest Image of introduction, with full pdf available.

also: ScienceDirect - Journal of Chromatography B : Enantiomeric analysis of anatabine, nornicotine and anabasine in commercial tobacco by multi-dimensional gas chromatography and mass spectrometry

So anatabine and anabasine might be key 'missing' alkaloids.
Anabasine and anatabine as biomarkers for tobacco use during nicotine replacement therapy

ps: the Phenobarb-Belladonna Alkaloids you mention are barbiturates that affect the GABA mediated pathway, and would indeed be relaxing in nature - but not sure they exist in tobacco; though quite possible (likely even) that they are there but in very tiny amounts (so probably not significant?)

DVap - as the only alkaloids that would be present are those in tobacco, and the extraction method is unlikely to concentrate a minor one (?), this should be pretty safe.