So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[frankie1]

Older: I admit, I haven't tried it yet. The "episodes" that I have been experiencing are so terrifying that I haven't gotten my nerve up yet. I don't know if they are from too much nicotine, withdrawal symptoms, anxiety attacks or heart problems (doc has me on a monitor). I see the cardiologist on 11/25 and am thinking I should just limp along here until he rules out heart problems before venturing too far into unknown territory and precipitating a heart attack. And GOOD MORNING thank you for asking.

Kin: Thank you for your reply. I was attempting to make sense of the alkaloid connection that you were discussing earlier with Vaporer...looks like I strayed too far afield.

 

[Vaporer]

Hi frankie1,
I forget the exact time that has been stated to form a habit. The longer time passes it becomes ingrained behavior also. Some substances replace chemicals the brain produces and when substituted from another source the brain sees no need to make them anymore. When the substitute is removed..withdrawl......till the brain/body catches up.
Some chemicals just produce effects without stopping anything since its alien to the body to start. The person could become liking to these though and a different type of addiction formed. Finding the combination to the lock isn't as easy as the FDA's NRT's tunneled vision of only nicotine as a source of the problem and cure. That seems to be very evident form reading peoples stories they share just on this forum. Makes one wonder just what kind of studies they really have done. Most NRT's have a fair rate of success initially, but fail drastically in the following months. Many take prescribed MOAI's and stopping them cold turkey can be drastic. Been there.
I'm not saying snus is the golden key that will work for everyone, another tool yes, but that its more like tobacco in its raw form still containing compounds which are removed the purer the nicotine gets from processing for NRT's, eliquid, ........

Just some things to consider and abstract thinking with a little personal experience.

 

[kinabaloo]

Older: I admit, I haven't tried it yet. The "episodes" that I have been experiencing are so terrifying that I haven't gotten my nerve up yet. I don't know if they are from too much nicotine, withdrawal symptoms, anxiety attacks or heart problems (doc has me on a monitor). I see the cardiologist on 11/25 and am thinking I should just limp along here until he rules out heart problems before venturing too far into unknown territory and precipitating a heart attack. And GOOD MORNING thank you for asking.

Kin: Thank you for your reply. I was attempting to make sense of the alkaloid connection that you were discussing earlier with Vaporer...looks like I strayed too far afield.

Not at all - it's all related. I have some GABA that i bought for stress, but rarely use it - last time was years ago. If I feel hyper/stressed I find inositol works wonders - for me. A walk in cold air is also very relaxing (winter / night); cooling down seems to help with stress a lot; maybe by just slowing everything down, combined with some fresh air, gentle exercise and taking ones mind off things (getting away/out for a while).

 

[LameBMX]

My addiction characteristics have been previously posted. But I used to be a night owl, some 10 years ago. These days I am a lark so to speak. Asleep by midnight most nights, and up at 6AM.

 

[Vaporer]

frankie1,
I can understand your concerns with your health condition and being close to seeing your Dr. Vaping is helping from what I read, but you are in the , "it still just isn't all right".
You might try the snus for say 5 min and take it out to see if you notice any changes.
IE...a longer time befor you want to vape, a slowing in your vaping or that odd missing feeling subsides somewhat. If so, the next time maybe ty 10 min and so on.
More of a "play it by ear" thing....noting the results and adjusting from there.
If you feel a diff in 3 min...out it comes till you see how you feel, better, worse?

Baby steps. Unsure large steps will increase your anxiety levels and certainly skew something off norm. Do what you are comfortable with in small increments.
No 2 people are alike.

.02 thrown in here........

 

[kinabaloo]

To add to notes on the minor tobacco alkaloids - nornicotine in this case :

"While nornicotine is a significant component in tobacco as well as a minor systemic metabolite of nicotine, nornicotine appears to be N-demethylated locally in the brain where it accumulates at relatively high levels after chronic nicotine administration. ... understanding the actions of nornicotine in the brain may have significance for both emerging therapeutics and the management of nicotine dependence."

Looks like nornicotine is something to look into further.

As an aside, actually, some people metabolise nic to nornic much more than others, from what i have read, but not sure if this would be significant if outside the brain.

Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies

 

[DVap]

My clock wants to run at 20 hours up/10 hours down. At the same time, I am very un-addictive, having little interest in alcohol beyond the strictly casual. "Recreational pharmacology" and such is practically nonexistent in my history. Smoking has really been my only real "addiction".

kin, I suspect we're looking at the whole spread of tobacco alkaloids interacting and being metabolized in various manners. As we're starting to see, just because nicotine is the most dominant of these alkaloids does not mean it is the *the* thing that hooks us.

 

[frankie1]

I just wanted to say a quick THANK YOU to everyone for taking the time to reply to me. I will keep following this thread....you guys are AWESOME!

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

My clock wants to run at 20 hours up/10 hours down. At the same time, I am very un-addictive, having little interest in alcohol beyond the strictly casual. "Recreational pharmacology" and such is practically nonexistent in my history. Smoking has really been my only real "addiction".

kin, I suspect we're looking at the whole spread of tobacco alkaloids interacting and being metabolized in various manners. As we're starting to see, just because nicotine is the most dominant of these alkaloids does not mean it is the *the* thing that hooks us.

I've suspected as well. It scares me to think of the possiblity that in the future an anolog may be the only thing that is able to keep me "normal". Since a very young age I've, on a continuous basis, used mood altering chemicals and in their absence suffered clinical depression and axiety. During "clean and sober" cycles I'd be prescribed Welbutrin XL and Paxil. Over the last 5 years I've only used cigarettes and coffee (to excess) and managed very well. Since switching to the ecig using mega mg/ml I'm maintaining, but often I feel like I'm hanging on a window ledge 50 stories up by my fingernails. My nic consumption is plenty, so cravings are in check, but my brain wants something else. Dopamine!!! I've been taught in rehab (over and over again) that my brain chemistry is perminantly altered. I can accept that, but after reading so much from Kin and Dvap about MAOI's it's clear that ecigs may not work for me. At least not with the current products. I have started taking St John's Wort, less than a week ago, so we'll see how that goes. Dvap 's revelation may hold promise for people like me. Also, it astounds me how some have gone to great lengths, expense, long hours and other un-noticed annoyances to bring us information the "paid professionals" only poo poo. Thank you, your research means more to me than I can possibly convey.

 

[frankie1]

Twisted Victor: ITA with that. I have talked to my long time internist, an emergency doctor and a cardiologist. All three just looked at me like I am an idiot for suggesting that my problems are from tobacco withdrawal. Their response was just, well you need to quit. That is one hell of a lot easier said than done! I am so very, very thankful that these talented people are trying to help shed some light on this. It is a crime that our own government and medical professionals, who we pay to help us, turn a blind eye to our plight and instead choose to demonize its citizens for a product that the government of the US backed financially not that long ago!

BTW: I am in the same boat, except that I haven't been able to completely get off analogs. And at times, I am going nuts with what I believe to be anxiety attacks. I don't do drugs or alcohol, just nicotine and caffeine, but I am demonized for these two relatively benign substances. I started smoking when I was 17 years old. The government was just beginning to warn there were problems with smoking. Of course, they were also banning saccharin and were making outrageous claims about the dangers of pot. Needless to say, I grew up with television and magazines extolling the virtues of nicotine and both my parents smoked. I can vividly remember when money was tight my mom would try to quit smoking. I would watch her sit on the porch and cry wanting a cigarette so bad. I swore I would never smoke...but I did. I just don't want to die for a mistake I made 40 years ago..I need help. I can never thank the people on this board enough for their help in at least reducing the amount of smoking....and I am not going to give up trying to quit.

 

[Vaporer]

frankie1 & Twisted,

Have you considered Lobelia? It's sold at GNC and most homoeopathic stores.
It comes in capsules taken orally.

"An active ingredient in the lobelia plant, lobeline, is similar to nicotine in its effect on the body. Like nicotine, it stimulates nerves in the central nervous system. For this reason, lobeline was once used as a nicotine substitute in many anti-smoking products and preparations designed to break the smoking habit"

Another source: Lobeline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It addresses dopamine issues also.

Lobeline

Might be another tool for your kits. I doubt many kits will look alike.
You have to love the Dr's that take the holier than thou attitude and never had the problem.

Remember that any analog avoided is better than what you had.

 

[DVap]

Interesting Vaporer.

Lobeline isn't an alkaloid I'm familiar with but a quick browse shows some action on dopamine release similar to tobacco as well as inhibition on it's re-uptake.

Seems the FDA banned it for use in stop smoking preparations back about 15 years ago.. they told us it didn't work, which means it probably did work.

It also appears to antagonize methamphetamine, with potential use as a treatment for addiction/abuse.

Interesting to see that it also acts as a nicotinic acetylcholine receptor agonist and nicotine antagonist. I know of another chemical that works quite similarly that I'm not all too thrilled about... Chantix.

I'd be careful with the dosage on this stuff from places like GNC (though GNC didn't have it listed online)... very careful, This appears to be a potent chemical... I see a potental for bad things happening with this stuff even at modest doses if taken casually.

 

[Stubby]

I think I'll play it safe and stay with my snus.

Oh the irony of it all LOL

 

[frankie1]

I hadn't thought of lobelia, although that may be worth considering. I think the new product that Ruyan is starting to market was going to be lobelia!

 

[frankie1]

Yeah...found the link:

RUYAN AMERICA LAUNCHES E-MYSTICK RAPP - Ruyan America

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

frankie1 & Twisted,

Have you considered Lobelia? It's sold at GNC and most homoeopathic stores.
It comes in capsules taken orally.

"An active ingredient in the lobelia plant, lobeline, is similar to nicotine in its effect on the body. Like nicotine, it stimulates nerves in the central nervous system. For this reason, lobeline was once used as a nicotine substitute in many anti-smoking products and preparations designed to break the smoking habit"

Another source: Lobeline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It addresses dopamine issues also.

Lobeline

Might be another tool for your kits. I doubt many kits will look alike.
You have to love the Dr's that take the holier than thou attitude and never had the problem.

Remember that any analog avoided is better than what you had.

Thanks, Vaporer. I did look into Lobilia originally, but thought it was only for nic cravings, which I have a handle on. I guess I should do some more research on this. Thank you, also, Dvap for your insight and frankie1 for that heads-up link.

 

[Vaporer]

Lobelia made its rise in the mid 70's to early 80's if I remember correctly. It came after the warning labeling was required on analogs and the big anti smoking push began.
All I can really do is mention it as I'm not a chemist nor a physician.
Anyone considering it should do research on it and consult a professional.
I do know its still available without a prescription.

Funny Ruyan has considered it as an alternative. I hadn't seen that. Recently too.
Lobelias effects, as far as my limited chemistry knowledge goes, is kinda like artificial tobacco and Chantix as thier sub to the many alkaloids that occur in the whole plant of lobelia. If that didnt come out right, I think you can see where I'm going with.
The more refined the less you get overall as they focus on one thing vs the many constiuents that exist that seem ignored. <Insert the govs myopathy here>

Saw my cardiologist today. Told him no analogs since 7-11-2009. He was very happy and asked how. I told him of the PV expecting a tounge lashing. He was very familiar with it asked if he could see it and said he knew of its contents and seemingly high success rate. He was even keeping an eye on the possible ban! He comended me and wrote me a script(3 months) for Nicotrol for some nicotine alternative in the event of a ban ! I about fell off the exam table. He realized it(Nicotrol) was uncomfortable for many and said some had said they diluted it for use. He knew more than he was saying for sure. A CYA I think, but my insurance picks up the tab. His main concern was the levels of nic allowed and lack of professional admistrative control of dosage. I explained the "hiccup syndrome" to him and told him I could easily exist way below that level.

Not the worst day I've started off with recently........................

 

[frankie1]

Wow Vaporer! That is good news....especially if my tests don't come out the way I want...LOL! Do you think he was talking about vaping the nicotrol in the event of a ban? Could one do that?

The lobelia is an interesting concept...I might explore that route!

 

[Vaporer]

It was actually so strange. If you knew this Dr for yrs I'd more have expected my head on the floor. He must hate the results of analogs. I mentioned I bought high nic and diluted it down for economical reasons and until I found the minimum that was comfortable. Then had actually went below that since. We discussed the other things that are missed, oral and hand fixations............

I havent filled it yet. I don't know all thats in it. The "discomfort part" came when I mentioned I read (on here) people said it burnt like hell and one person sprayed it in thier mouth. Tasted like crap but instant nic hit. So, maybe he let it go at that knowing I wouldnt be stupid or I was cautious enough lowering my levels myself I wouldn't misuse it.
I dont know..................but I'm not complaining. The nicotine vs my heart was no problem appearently. Situations may vary by a persons condition and health.

I've discussed a combo snus juice nic juice combo spray with exo, even flavored....lol
He posted some examples. The metered sprayer would just need reclaibrated as viscosity changes. Not really that far fetched.

Stubby, if the snus and nasal snuff are working why change it? Think of all the other things, the hardware, orders, higher cost you are missing. I'm happy you found your key.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Yeah...found the link:

RUYAN AMERICA LAUNCHES E-MYSTICK RAPP - Ruyan America

Interesting. I had it pictured more like an additive to existing nic liquids. It may be a case that heat from vaporization destroys it and must stay in it's liquid form. I'll try to keep an eye on this, should it hit the market. Oh boy, here I go, again. New puchase, disposable at that. $$$. Still a trapped rat.