Your experience with snus mirrors mine Vaporer. In the short time I've been using snus my liquid consumption is down by half easily. No longer chain vaping and by all appearances I'm getting the nic or MAOI's or whatever that I need.
So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine
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Your experience with snus mirrors mine Vaporer. In the short time I've been using snus my liquid consumption is down by half easily. No longer chain vaping and by all appearances I'm getting the nic or MAOI's or whatever that I need.
frankie1,
I'm talking about having a snus in the mouth while vaping and in between vapes. My vaping can be 1/2 normal and no ill effects, cravings......
Not TB's snus juice, although it works well too.
TB is a wealth of info and if he says it, you can pretty well take it to the bank.
It just seems that when the tobacco is made into dissovables "something" is being removed thats still left in snus. Whatever it is MOAI's, specific alkaloids or other natural occuring components in tobacco that is letting the extended effect happen.
Older, we arent the only 2 that have noticed this event. It's just not getting much coverage.
I'm talking about having a snus in the mouth while vaping and in between vapes. My vaping can be 1/2 normal and no ill effects, cravings......
Not TB's snus juice, although it works well too.
TB is a wealth of info and if he says it, you can pretty well take it to the bank.
It just seems that when the tobacco is made into dissovables "something" is being removed thats still left in snus. Whatever it is MOAI's, specific alkaloids or other natural occuring components in tobacco that is letting the extended effect happen.
Older, we arent the only 2 that have noticed this event. It's just not getting much coverage.
Well, it is a vaping forum after all.
I'm just glad T Bob spoke up as often as he has regarding all alternate forms of going smokeless! Snus and vaping do certainly compliment one and other.
But TBob always misses the key point - that for some people (perhaps a minority, but perhaps not), TBob included, nic alone does not sufficiently placate the desire (or 'addiction' as he would put it), at any reasonable dosage anyway*. That snus works, strongly suggests that other chemicals*, such as other alkaloids with MAOI effect, are needed by some people.
* if a suffieciently high dose of nic could achieve satiation, or MAOIs act partly to another effect is an interesting question; my guess would be that while MAOIs act to prolong dopamine, other effects on 'mood' may also be important in some cases
** no CO with snus; there might be acetaldehyde
* if a suffieciently high dose of nic could achieve satiation, or MAOIs act partly to another effect is an interesting question; my guess would be that while MAOIs act to prolong dopamine, other effects on 'mood' may also be important in some cases
** no CO with snus; there might be acetaldehyde
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Kin,
TB is working from the trenches and self experience not from the pulpit. Everyone doesnt have an expertise background in organic chemistry, plant biology, human physiology and other associated fields. So why say he misses? He's actually tried and reports effects. He's not blindly suggesting anything to anyone I know of to do something he hasn't tried himself and its effects. The fact he may not know the scientific reason or terminology shouldn't give less credence to his information and help he offers from actual experience.
Can you give me an exact chemical breakdown of all the ingredients of everything in snus vs Ariva or Stonewall for an exact comaprison to support your or my assumption?
It may be the pressure of the portion against the nerves of the mouth where it lays. If you can't prove that its not possible then you can't say it's not a possible cause.
TB is working from the trenches and self experience not from the pulpit. Everyone doesnt have an expertise background in organic chemistry, plant biology, human physiology and other associated fields. So why say he misses? He's actually tried and reports effects. He's not blindly suggesting anything to anyone I know of to do something he hasn't tried himself and its effects. The fact he may not know the scientific reason or terminology shouldn't give less credence to his information and help he offers from actual experience.
Can you give me an exact chemical breakdown of all the ingredients of everything in snus vs Ariva or Stonewall for an exact comaprison to support your or my assumption?
It may be the pressure of the portion against the nerves of the mouth where it lays. If you can't prove that its not possible then you can't say it's not a possible cause.
I think there is so much information that we don't have and can't get! It is irresponsible at best that our nanny government spends so much time and money on methods that do not work while trying to repress methods that do!
Vaporer: I agree, most of us do not have the education to properly research these products. Nor do we have the money! TB is a gem and does a tremendous amount of in the trenches ideas and should very well be commended for his efforts. I KNOW they have helped me a lot! (BTW, I understood you meant put the portion in the mouth LOL) Even his snus juice seems a little closer to cigarettes, probably because they have the MAOIs or whatever is the "something" I seem to be missing.
I have found Kin's information helpful although more scientific in content. I would be very interested in knowing more about his real life work!
Also, Kin, if you have read about TB's snus juice method, could you give us your thoughts on that?
I hope no one is criticizing another. We are all in this together and doing the best that we can with the limited information and methods that we have. It is to say the least a bit intimidating to some of us and I, for one, welcome all the information I can get from everyone on a subject that is so vital to my personal wellbeing.
Thanks to all of you for your time and efforts.
Vaporer: I agree, most of us do not have the education to properly research these products. Nor do we have the money! TB is a gem and does a tremendous amount of in the trenches ideas and should very well be commended for his efforts. I KNOW they have helped me a lot! (BTW, I understood you meant put the portion in the mouth LOL) Even his snus juice seems a little closer to cigarettes, probably because they have the MAOIs or whatever is the "something" I seem to be missing.
I have found Kin's information helpful although more scientific in content. I would be very interested in knowing more about his real life work!
Also, Kin, if you have read about TB's snus juice method, could you give us your thoughts on that?I hope no one is criticizing another. We are all in this together and doing the best that we can with the limited information and methods that we have. It is to say the least a bit intimidating to some of us and I, for one, welcome all the information I can get from everyone on a subject that is so vital to my personal wellbeing.
Thanks to all of you for your time and efforts.
frankie1,
What I described and older concurred, maybe you too abt using a snus extends time between vaping sessions for some, maybe many.
The dissolvables are a higher refined process and normally things are further removed by this. The nic is still there, no doubt, but the other effect just isn't the same . At least for me and older seems to confirm it as many others in diff threads have mentioned it.
Camel SNUS doesnt seem to have the best effect in this area. The Swedish type or even the Discreet snus work very well for me. I did a lot of reading from TB's description of the 2 and they are not really close in the processing. I did take a liking to the Camel Frost, but little noticeable diff on the vaping urge. General mini mints are highly favored and do produce an extended break for me.
Any others like to jump in and discuss if you've had this effect? If you've tried just the Camel and had the effect on occasion, I'd suggest trying the General mini mint (white portion) or Discreet. There is even a thread for lady snus users. SOme good info there too.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ry-first-snus-now-yes-im-female-new-post.html
What I described and older concurred, maybe you too abt using a snus extends time between vaping sessions for some, maybe many.
The dissolvables are a higher refined process and normally things are further removed by this. The nic is still there, no doubt, but the other effect just isn't the same . At least for me and older seems to confirm it as many others in diff threads have mentioned it.
Camel SNUS doesnt seem to have the best effect in this area. The Swedish type or even the Discreet snus work very well for me. I did a lot of reading from TB's description of the 2 and they are not really close in the processing. I did take a liking to the Camel Frost, but little noticeable diff on the vaping urge. General mini mints are highly favored and do produce an extended break for me.
Any others like to jump in and discuss if you've had this effect? If you've tried just the Camel and had the effect on occasion, I'd suggest trying the General mini mint (white portion) or Discreet. There is even a thread for lady snus users. SOme good info there too.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ry-first-snus-now-yes-im-female-new-post.html
I only tried the camel snus when I first started so I couldn't tell if it's less effective. Wouldn't surprise me if it was. The swedish snus is highly regulated by the swedish government as a food product. All the ingredients are known, along with how it's processed. With camel... who knows. The owner of discreet snus, which is made in the US is very open about his products, and if fact frequently post on the main snus forum.
Yes, it is a shame that there is virtually no research into harm reduction tobacco. It's all geared towards smoking and nicotine cessation as opposed to long term use of reduced harm smoking replacement. For the most part we're on our own. Fortunately we getting to the point where we have a lot of anecdotal evidence to go on. I think our best guesses are getting a lot better.
Yes, it is a shame that there is virtually no research into harm reduction tobacco. It's all geared towards smoking and nicotine cessation as opposed to long term use of reduced harm smoking replacement. For the most part we're on our own. Fortunately we getting to the point where we have a lot of anecdotal evidence to go on. I think our best guesses are getting a lot better.
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And for all the finer points that T Bob or anyone else might miss, we've got folks like you to fill in the blanks. And I'm glad of it Kin! The mix of experiences of the forum members makes this an interesting place indeed.
Hmmm, lets see, oh yeah! Hi frankie. Agreed, concure, absolutely and play nice!
Spot on right down the line V. With respect to the efficacy between the RJR Camel products and Discreet or the traditional Swedish snus, isande made mention to me recently that the pH of the different brands is a contributing factor in the nicotine delivery. Camel being not quite as efficient. The role that pH plays in this has been broached elswhere in some detail.
Too bad though. I really like the Camel mellow but it does not deliver. Tried several swedish, got more coming. So many to try! My current favorite for nicotine satisfaction and enjoyable flavor is the General Wintergreen White.
Edit: Hey stubby!
TBob's a key member of CASAA, hence the prod.
People can disagree and still be on good terms. No antipathy involved!
It's not about understanding the chemistry, just that there are two things which together give a stronger effect. Much anecdotal evidence and scienctific study is in agreement on this.
One can't say 'nicotine is powerfully addictive - but it doesn't do much for me (I need the drug combo that is tobacco)'. That's my meaning.
Different perspectives, but we're all the same side.
People can disagree and still be on good terms. No antipathy involved!
It's not about understanding the chemistry, just that there are two things which together give a stronger effect. Much anecdotal evidence and scienctific study is in agreement on this.
One can't say 'nicotine is powerfully addictive - but it doesn't do much for me (I need the drug combo that is tobacco)'. That's my meaning.
Different perspectives, but we're all the same side.
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Sorry, I didn't read all 11 or so pages, but my question is: Do we know for certain that the form of nicotine delivered at the temperature of a PV is the same as that released by the burning of tobacco? I've assumed all along that most of the nic-content labeling is a bunch of hooey, because I've seen suppliers selling 36 mg nic liquid for the same price per ml as 18 mg or 12 mg. Why would they give you more per ml at the same price, only to see you cut the 36 with VG or PG and make twice the liquid?
Even more extreme example: one of my favorite suppliers sells Ecopure Rich flavor 30 mg, 5 ml for $5 and 10 mg, 5 ml for $5. Since this is VG based, why wouldn't I buy the 30 mg and cut it with 10 ml of VG to make 15 ml of 10 mg if that's the strength I prefer? Doesn't make sense. It would be like a gas station selling premium gas and regular unleaded for the same price.
My hunch is: the numbers just might be meaningless. If you're getting any nicotine, the concentration is a wild guess from one supplier to another.
Even more extreme example: one of my favorite suppliers sells Ecopure Rich flavor 30 mg, 5 ml for $5 and 10 mg, 5 ml for $5. Since this is VG based, why wouldn't I buy the 30 mg and cut it with 10 ml of VG to make 15 ml of 10 mg if that's the strength I prefer? Doesn't make sense. It would be like a gas station selling premium gas and regular unleaded for the same price.
My hunch is: the numbers just might be meaningless. If you're getting any nicotine, the concentration is a wild guess from one supplier to another.
I don't think that means anything. You don't pay more for Marlboro reds than Marlboro Ultra Lights.
Maybe that's because I can't make three packs of ultra lights out of a pack of reds. I can make 15 ml of 10 mg e-liquid out of 5 ml of 30 mg e-liquid. They're selling nic content as much as they're selling flavor when it comes to e-liquid. Cutting the flavored liquids with VG doesn't make much of a difference in the flavor, in my limited experience. Then again, any flavors I'm vaping now are generally DIY, so I'm biased in that direction already.
Eric in AK said:
I've received liquid samples from a good number of forum members and suppliers, and with the exceptions of the guy who got 6.2 mg when he paid for a bunch of 36 mg from some place I'd never heard of overseas, and the TW red label moderate inconsistencies (which they're raising absolute hell about with their supplier), the liquids have been remarkably accurately labeled.
For Chinese manufacturer, I've come to trust Dekang's labeling. TW Platinum Ice is absolutely right on it's 54 mg labeling. John (Shining Wit) from Intellicig had offered to send me some Ecopure Krystal , but so far I've not seen it, so I can't offer first hand test results, maybe he forgot, ohhh John.... but I suspect it is also as advertised. Domestically (U.S.), I can't say enough good things about Myfreedomsmokes. Nhaler and Midwest Vapor have also proven right on the mark.
I've been thinking about those of us who self-medicate with nicotine (and I certainly do... think ADD). I believe I would be in the moderate/low nicotine, high MOAI's bracket. While others are doing strong or extra strong snus in the morning I can do it with a mini, but when I'm at work and need to focus it's got to be the standard 8 mg nicotine snus. I think I often over-smoked, not for the nicotine but for the cofactors I was getting.
Little wonder e-cigs were such a failure for me. The last thing I needed was a purified nicotine.
You might want to try getting all you nic needs from snus (and perhaps nasal snuff, likely another good source of MOAI's) and using 0 nic liquid if you feel the need for the oral fixation thing. For some of us it may be a mistake playing around with the purified nicotine.
Stubby,
I wouldn't look at it s a mistake. Human physiology is different for each as well as what about analogs satisfied them. It appears to be no doubt that its more than nicotine. For some the nic is the major thing, others seems not so sure. If I don't toss in a mini snus I'll vape constantly , or it seems like it. If I put a mini in, It can be threre for 2 hrs and I'll only vape abt 1/2 my "norm". Putting a dissolvable stops the immedate urge to vape, but I still want something. So I vape. I guess I'm used to getting what I'm missing from the analog that way so I subconsciencly return to the PV.
So, it appears to be a balancing act for the individual. Some dont mind vaping all day constantly. I wondered why, as OlderThanDirt did, and we have similar results.
I'm guessing, since I cant prove it, that there is something in the raw tobacco that has this effect. Dissolvables have the nic and don't work for me the same way. snus, even in the mini portions has the raw tobacco still present even in the low nic snus. I have to discount Camel SNUS out, although it does help some, because its produced so differently than Discreet and Sweedish type snus's like General Mini Mint (white portion) which work well.
I hope this helps explain a little better and if you feel you failed with the PV , you may not have just found your " balancing point" as your system is more sensitive or your awareness higher than others.
DVaps testing proved the nic is there, but at the same time raised other questions and I see all this input form others as great sources to compare to as "why?".
Good luck. Every analog you don't smoke is a +.
Edit: Stubby, if the snus helped, have you considered vaping snus juice or tossing a snus in your bottle of eliquid? TB made a vid on using snus to vape as have a couple of others. That might be the ticket that solves your issues.......and mine too come to think of it.
I wouldn't look at it s a mistake. Human physiology is different for each as well as what about analogs satisfied them. It appears to be no doubt that its more than nicotine. For some the nic is the major thing, others seems not so sure. If I don't toss in a mini snus I'll vape constantly , or it seems like it. If I put a mini in, It can be threre for 2 hrs and I'll only vape abt 1/2 my "norm". Putting a dissolvable stops the immedate urge to vape, but I still want something. So I vape. I guess I'm used to getting what I'm missing from the analog that way so I subconsciencly return to the PV.
So, it appears to be a balancing act for the individual. Some dont mind vaping all day constantly. I wondered why, as OlderThanDirt did, and we have similar results.
I'm guessing, since I cant prove it, that there is something in the raw tobacco that has this effect. Dissolvables have the nic and don't work for me the same way. snus, even in the mini portions has the raw tobacco still present even in the low nic snus. I have to discount Camel SNUS out, although it does help some, because its produced so differently than Discreet and Sweedish type snus's like General Mini Mint (white portion) which work well.
I hope this helps explain a little better and if you feel you failed with the PV , you may not have just found your " balancing point" as your system is more sensitive or your awareness higher than others.
DVaps testing proved the nic is there, but at the same time raised other questions and I see all this input form others as great sources to compare to as "why?".
Good luck. Every analog you don't smoke is a +.
Edit: Stubby, if the snus helped, have you considered vaping snus juice or tossing a snus in your bottle of eliquid? TB made a vid on using snus to vape as have a couple of others. That might be the ticket that solves your issues.......and mine too come to think of it.
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This thread as well as a couple others currently going got me to wondering more than I usually do 'bout this addiction/habit.
Yesterday, no snus until mid to late afternoon. Conscious effort to NOT chain vape. Result: slightly anxious and when I did go to the room where I had my PV's it was truly a fog-fest.
Grabbed up the snus in the early evening and any anxiousness, (anxiety?) subsided within perhaps 15 to 30 mins. Vaping the rest of the evening was occasional and relaxed.
So here's where I lose my train of thought as far as logical cause and effect goes. Today I started with snus, thought I'd for-swear the vape today. Made it about 2 hours before I HAD to take a draw.
So the balancing act you speak of Vaporer is certainly a real thing for me at the moment. As to the whys and wherefores, I'll continue to follow what Dvap, Kin and others put forth with fascination. And I'll darn sure continue to self medicate my depressive side with nicotine!
Hey Stubby, you do still vape along with the snus right? I lose things all the time, need reminders... The thought of dropping the nic level in my juice and supplementing with the snus has crossed my mind. That 36mg still feels sooo good though....
Yesterday, no snus until mid to late afternoon. Conscious effort to NOT chain vape. Result: slightly anxious and when I did go to the room where I had my PV's it was truly a fog-fest.
Grabbed up the snus in the early evening and any anxiousness, (anxiety?) subsided within perhaps 15 to 30 mins. Vaping the rest of the evening was occasional and relaxed.
So here's where I lose my train of thought as far as logical cause and effect goes. Today I started with snus, thought I'd for-swear the vape today. Made it about 2 hours before I HAD to take a draw.
So the balancing act you speak of Vaporer is certainly a real thing for me at the moment. As to the whys and wherefores, I'll continue to follow what Dvap, Kin and others put forth with fascination. And I'll darn sure continue to self medicate my depressive side with nicotine!
Hey Stubby, you do still vape along with the snus right? I lose things all the time, need reminders... The thought of dropping the nic level in my juice and supplementing with the snus has crossed my mind. That 36mg still feels sooo good though....
To many threads within threads. I think I need some strong snus (LOL).
Vaporer, I agree with everything you said about each of us finding our balance. I hoped I hadn't made my suggestion about getting off the e-cig nic to harsh. I tried to qualify it with a "some of us". I have found my balance. Just using snus and a bit of nasal snuff and I'm good, and have been for nearly 6 months. No cigs or desire for cigs. Funny for me as my system rejected the e-cig type nicotine early on. It didn't take me long to figure out it wasn't working. I took to snus like a duck to water. I felt.. normal.
I made the suggestion because for those of us that are self-medicating, at least in my case, the co-factors in tobacco appear be as important as the nicotine. If I load up on the purified type nicotine via e-cig I get into trouble.
Olderthendirt: I stopped using the e-cig completely about 5 months ago. It wasn't giving me what I needed so it just kind of fell to the wayside. Wasn't even trying to do it. It just got to be to much hassle with the batteries, cleaning, etc. I did miss the hit I got with cigs for some time. For me I think it was the nicotine spike that cigs give ya. I got over it.
It may take some time to find your balance. Wether you need the nic in e-cigs or not in the long run, well... I guess time will tell.
Vaporer, I agree with everything you said about each of us finding our balance. I hoped I hadn't made my suggestion about getting off the e-cig nic to harsh. I tried to qualify it with a "some of us". I have found my balance. Just using snus and a bit of nasal snuff and I'm good, and have been for nearly 6 months. No cigs or desire for cigs. Funny for me as my system rejected the e-cig type nicotine early on. It didn't take me long to figure out it wasn't working. I took to snus like a duck to water. I felt.. normal.
I made the suggestion because for those of us that are self-medicating, at least in my case, the co-factors in tobacco appear be as important as the nicotine. If I load up on the purified type nicotine via e-cig I get into trouble.
Olderthendirt: I stopped using the e-cig completely about 5 months ago. It wasn't giving me what I needed so it just kind of fell to the wayside. Wasn't even trying to do it. It just got to be to much hassle with the batteries, cleaning, etc. I did miss the hit I got with cigs for some time. For me I think it was the nicotine spike that cigs give ya. I got over it.
It may take some time to find your balance. Wether you need the nic in e-cigs or not in the long run, well... I guess time will tell.
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